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Rustybear posted:there is nothing about pr that doesn't boil down to if we give the lib dems more power things might be better. FPTP routinely gave LibDems a whole bunch of constituencies in western areas until they shat the bed, and probably will again now. PR would stop tactical voting and encourage people to vote for what they actually support, which is required for real democracy.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:03
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Yeah PR is only a guaranteed boost for Lib Dems if Lib Dems are offering what people want. They'll probably get a short term boost if they can position themselves as the architects of the idea, but once their other ideas are '2012 olympics' and 'squirrels wallets' some other parties will likely take it. https://twitter.com/simonharris_mbd/status/1544397169670733824
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Jul 6, 2022 11:08
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Two more: https://twitter.com/FelicityBuchan/status/1544623549213810689?s=20&t=b-7OczAqqfxPsXL6mYnX2w https://twitter.com/JohnGlenUK/status/1544623825307959300?s=20&t=b-7OczAqqfxPsXL6mYnX2w Think that's 15 now...
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Jul 6, 2022 11:09
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https://twitter.com/AccidentalP/status/1544611361744896000
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Jul 6, 2022 11:10
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Oh dear me posted:PR would stop tactical voting and encourage people to vote for what they actually support, which is required for real democracy. tactical voting is embedded in all political systems, people stand outside australian polling stations handing out instructions on how to order your ranked vote etc. this is complete fantasy
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Jul 6, 2022 11:11
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Honestly I'm not sure why people think PR is so terrible for the nominal-left in this country. In Boris's "incredible victory" of 2019 under PR Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP would actually have more seats in the house. Obviously this assumes they'd be willing to coalition with Labour, which is silly, but the point is that even such a damaging loss for Labour in 2019 would have been massively cushioned under PR.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:14
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A few more green mps wouldn't hurt either. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/general-election-2019-turning-votes-into-seats/
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Jul 6, 2022 11:20
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Rustybear posted:tactical voting is embedded in all political systems, people stand outside australian polling stations handing out instructions on how to order your ranked vote etc. this is complete fantasy You know that's illegal in the UK? If you think FPTP is somehow better than PR than you are bonkers. Rustybear posted:there is nothing about pr that doesn't boil down to if we give the lib dems more power things might be better. we tried that and things got worse; find a new straw to grasp at. Because PR is possible . People do not enjoy voting, they find it a hassle. You will never get the country to agree to this kind direct democracy as it would require them to take the time off and go down to a station to vote. And sure LD might get more power but so would the greens. Hell maybe some actual socialist parties could arise and gain some power. Under FPTP its a choice of 2 parties for the vast majority of people.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:21
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SixFigureSandwich posted:Can the home sec unilaterally revoke somebody's citizenship? If so I hear there is lots of empty seats on those planes to Rwanda I assume so, since that's what Javid did to Shamima Begum. I think two or three of her children died in the refugee camp in Syria while she was waiting to find out if she'd be allowed back in to the UK. Or that was illegal, like probably half the poo poo the Tories have pulled.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:25
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People say that FPTP keeps the "extremist" right wing down but honestly they just join the tories. It's already a completely batshit coalition ranging from liberterians to patel++ authoritarians.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:26
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Tesseraction posted:Honestly I'm not sure why people think PR is so terrible for the nominal-left in this country. In Boris's "incredible victory" of 2019 under PR Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP would actually have more seats in the house. Obviously this assumes they'd be willing to coalition with Labour, which is silly, but the point is that even such a damaging loss for Labour in 2019 would have been massively cushioned under PR. becasue taking the anglosphere as a sample you have everything from mandatory run off voting (AUS) through to mixed systems (US/NZ) through to FPTP (CAN and UK) and --with the possible exception of NZ -- all of them have political culture just as lovely as the uk you can run the numbers on what happened in a previous election and read straight across to a counterfactual on how the numbers tack up but if the rules had been different the game would have been different. if the rules change the tory party will spend it's money in different ways. it's like trying to piece together who would have won a constituency that's been abolished, totally meaningless. what you have in PR is a massive constitutional change with single digit public support and with no evidence of any material difference in outcome in the long term.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:26
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You sound like Labour. "let's keep an unfair system cos it's slightly better for us, sometimes" Edit Lol single digit support. gently caress off. Its in the 30-40s. Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 11:28
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Also endless centre-left and centre-right coalitions sounds better than endless rule by Blairists or outright right wingers with the occasional centrist or Christian dominionist confidence agreement. Even if Corbyn had won an outright majority, he'd still be negotiating with the bellend factions in his party, and as he said in a recent interview: quote:Somebody said to me at a demonstration I was at a few weeks ago, "Oh, God, I wouldn't have to be here if you had won the election!" I said, "Oh, yes, you would, but you would have been on demonstrations in support of the government for the first time in your life. You would have been demonstrating to support the government, and I would have been here speaking in support of the government as well, because we would have been changing things and we would have been under massive attack." In a not dissimilar way, endless centre-left and centre-right coalitions that have to negotiate with mass movements to secure legitimacy might end up with them pressured to do better than endless two party rule that takes everywhere but key marginal demographics for granted until its too late.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:29
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It's not even better for labour. It's better for the handful of people labour right who just want power without ideas or policy and didn't go to the right school to join the tories i.e https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1543859657613004800
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Jul 6, 2022 11:31
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Jul 6, 2022 11:36
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Rustybear posted:what you have in PR is a massive constitutional change with single digit public support and with no evidence of any material difference in outcome in the long term. There's loads of evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectorate_theory
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Jul 6, 2022 11:39
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Loonytoad Quack posted:Two more: Atkins gone as well now supposedly https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1544630537264021513
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Jul 6, 2022 11:41
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https://twitter.com/kitty_donaldson/status/1544627453347373056 lol
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Jul 6, 2022 11:47
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These people were already the dregs. We're going to end up with Steve Baker as business secretary
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Jul 6, 2022 11:47
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Jul 6, 2022 11:48
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Rustybear posted:becasue taking the anglosphere as a sample you have everything from mandatory run off voting (AUS) through to mixed systems (US/NZ) through to FPTP (CAN and UK) and --with the possible exception of NZ -- all of them have political culture just as lovely as the uk I mean, the major problem with all these voting systems at present is that they are being presented with an electorate that is on average fairly rightwing due to constant media propoganda. Fixing that particular problem is going to take several generations of steady work from everyone. In the meantime, I'd rather have a slightly more representative style of election that returns fewer Conservative majority governments rather than gambling that FPTP is going to deliver a leftwing government by accident that will somehow endure despite every single part of the establishment and half the population acting against it.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:55
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Rustybear posted:becasue taking the anglosphere as a sample you have everything from mandatory run off voting (AUS) through to mixed systems (US/NZ) through to FPTP (CAN and UK) Hang on. In what way is the US system 'mixed'? Unless you mean the electoral college, I guess, which is FPTP-but-worse and also only applies to the President; Congress and the Senate matter too, you know.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:56
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feedmegin posted:Hang on. In what way is the US system 'mixed'? Unless you mean the electoral college, I guess, which is FPTP-but-worse and also only applies to the President; Congress and the Senate matter too, you know. They probably mean Presidential elections? But those are still via the EC so I dunno.
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Jul 6, 2022 11:58
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Rustybear posted:becasue taking the anglosphere as a sample you have everything from mandatory run off voting (AUS) through to mixed systems (US/NZ) through to FPTP (CAN and UK) and --with the possible exception of NZ -- all of them have political culture just as lovely as the uk All due respect, it works in Scotland. Do you know how loving nice it is voting for a party I actually want to see in government rather than a party that is the least offensive from a shower of cunts? First Past The Post being removed won't magically fix British politics, but it will end up with a more representative parliament. The Tories have a massive, unassailable majority despite having the support of significantly less than 50% of the country. That's a lousy system. I don't think there's any magical panacea to make Britain better, but gently caress, at least if we get FPTP the Labour Party can be left to wither on the vine.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:00
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*gestures at a load of systems that aren't PR* And this, as you can see, is why PR won't help
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Jul 6, 2022 12:00
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some of the local elections in the US have surprisingly progressive voting systems
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Jul 6, 2022 12:01
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I, the Minister for Dog Dirt Fines and Tackling Plastic Carrier Bags hereby resign my position as, after long service voting to kill poor people then destroying the country's international standing, economic security and internal integrity through Brexit, can no longer support the Prime Minister as he appears likely to be toast because of that bum pincher bloke. 
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Jul 6, 2022 12:01
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jiggerypokery posted:There's loads of evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectorate_theory during the most recent period of coalition government in this country expenditure on public goods fell dramatically so there's more to it than coalitions = good
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Jul 6, 2022 12:05
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fuctifino posted:Sky news had a reporter in Boris's constituency, and they only found one person who still supported him. The guy looked like a homeless drunk, who then went on to boast that he went to the same college as Boris, so that's why he supports him. Ugh Balliol that's no kind of recommendation old chap
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Jul 6, 2022 12:06
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Watching PMQs live for the first time in years. BloJob really thinks he's going to get away with this by banging on about tax cuts (only cutting what he put on in the first place), claiming Pincher had the whip suspended immediately. Must admit Starmer's putting on a good show and I'm glad he bought up Priti Patel bullying. BloJob now is bringing up Corbyn.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:10
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Starmer actually nailing a zinger there. Boris must be desperate bringing up Corbyn.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:12
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Got to be fair to Keith, “sinking ships fleeing the rat” was a great line.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:13
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Rustybear posted:nothing is more evidence-based than political scientists breaking out the algebra! partly because the tories, as usual, were able to get a vastly larger % of the seats than their vote share therefore where able to do whatever they want https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_Kingdom_general_election#Results
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Jul 6, 2022 12:13
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PR is real good, the UK should do it. Also England should fedralise into substates of about 5—10 million population. And we should burn all of the peers and aristocracy in a massive bonny.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:15
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hahaha stop bringing up Corbyn you loving loser
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Jul 6, 2022 12:16
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Being a pro-FPTP supposed leftist is a scorcher of a take, I lol'ed
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Jul 6, 2022 12:21
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The fact he even made it to PMQs means this is another dud. Now the papers can start questioning if starmer grilled him enough / how forensic starmer is and it starts the process of people forgetting about this. Unless the 1922 develops a backbone, nah.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:21
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Escobarbarian posted:hahaha stop bringing up Corbyn you loving loser Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with Boris, or chaos with Jeremy Corbyn.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:24
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Why do people in this thread have such a hard on for PR when it'll just lead to constant centre/right wing coalitions? Thread is full of ex/embarrassed Lib Dems, OP.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:26
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lilljonas posted:Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with Boris, or chaos with Jeremy Corbyn. The chaos always sounded like the more fun option tbh
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Jul 6, 2022 12:27
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