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selec posted:Not only is it harder and harder to sue police for violating your rights, they will sue you for hurting their fee fees. They did that over BLM protests in Detroit as well, over claiming defamation or similar because the protestors publicized them being too violent towards them. It failed, but they tried.
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Jul 6, 2022 16:38
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That is definitely a part of it, but many other countries with much more robust social support systems have as much or more violent crime than the U.S. and just as much mental illness, but the difference is that when someone goes on a rampage with a knife or a bat, that they usually can't hit 30+ people in a few seconds. True, I never meant to imply that everyone having easy access to murder machines isn't A Problem in of itself. As Gumball said I should have used killings rather than shootings. Guns going away would definitely lower the body count by a ton, and that is good, but a body count is still going to be there as long as the root problems go unaddressed.
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Jul 6, 2022 16:39
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I guess I should give Tucker credit for originality? Instead of the usual "video games" and "with so many people being unfairly called racist, at least one was going to snap when provoked" explanation he usually gives, he has now determined that the causes of mass shootings are... nagging women. https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1544474945467678720 Also, the shooter's dad not only helped him buy a gun, but also lied to the police in 2019 and told them that all of the knives were actually his and denied that the shooter had ever been suicidal or violent to them. That incident would have banned him from owning guns for 5 years if they went through with it. https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1544703070889820160
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Jul 6, 2022 16:53
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selec posted:Not only is it harder and harder to sue police for violating your rights, they will sue you for hurting their fee fees.
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Jul 6, 2022 16:58
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Also, the shooter's dad not only helped him buy a gun, but also lied to the police in 2019 and told them that all of the knives were actually his and denied that the shooter had ever been suicidal or violent to them. That incident would have banned him from owning guns for 5 years if they went through with it. If there were any justice in this world his dad would go to the jail cell right next to him for the same amount of time.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:05
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I think the focus on sensationalized mass shootings is counterproductive, and the non-measures proposed to counter these are utterly unconvincing to people at all familiar with firearms. For reference the deadliest mass shooting, Las Vegas 2017, accounted for three days worth of 2016 handgun deaths. One Las Vegas per three days, that's a 9/11 to covid tier discrepancy. Extended mags and semi-autos (and loving handguns most of all) are unnecessary for a non-insane gun culture (see Canada, Finland, UK etc where sports shooting and hunting are plenty common)*. But like, "mass shootings" aren't even the main US gun problem. *side tangent but the US is and always was more comparable to places like Brazil, India, and Russia than to idyllic Denmark or wherever, and we'd prolly have more success with reform if we acknowledged this.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:07
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Dietrich posted:If there were any justice in this world his dad would go to the jail cell right next to him for the same amount of time. "Extremely lovely and enabling parents" has been a clear common thread in several recent mass shootings and this probably needs to be better scrutinized IMO.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:09
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Zophar posted:"Extremely lovely and enabling parents" has been a clear common thread in several recent mass shootings and this probably needs to be better scrutinized IMO. I'd blame similar parents for tons of disaffected young white men falling into the alt-right even if they don't go so far as murder. Idk a solution but god the boomer/x parenting style hosed us.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:10
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I think the focus on sensationalized mass shootings is counterproductive, and the non-measures proposed to counter these are utterly unconvincing to people at all familiar with firearms. For reference the deadliest mass shooting, Las Vegas 2017, accounted for three days worth of 2016 handgun deaths. One Las Vegas per three days, that's a 9/11 to covid tier discrepancy. No argument on the size of the problem but mass shootings is the one area where the concept that gun control may be necessary gets widespread agreement among voters of all stripes, and where it may be possible to get republican politicians to agree that "yes, the government has the power and the responsibility to control who has access to which guns" and that "gun control can reduce some kinds of gun violence". It has to start somewhere, and this issue is the easiest place to start. I would liken this to getting even pro-choice democrats to pass fetal-personhood adjacent bills that include a second murder charge if you kill a pregnant person in creating the political precedent that can be used to make further change.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:20
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TheSpartacus posted:The amount of times I've been having a discussion and a person tells me not to quote statistics because they dont believe any of them is mind-boggling. They'd prefer anecdotal stories and can't get out of the mind set that a single story isn't representative. Stories are how brains think and you should be aware of that when you’re trying to convince people.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:22
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'd blame similar parents for tons of disaffected young white men falling into the alt-right even if they don't go so far as murder. Idk a solution but god the boomer/x parenting style hosed us. Eh, expand out bigger on the history time line. Parental neglect or abuse is incredibly common in the history of people who have committed mass or serial killings for years and the boomers as they were growing up were the generation that we really started to have the data to notice this. But even then that's just a discovery, the behavior existed before and if we look back in history at similar killers we see similar behavior and history. Early intervention for kids who are in chaotic, violent, or neglectful situations would go a long way to helping these people. Hell, even the reactionaries are cluing in on this, they're just dumb as hell so when they notice that all these murderers also have lots of trauma and the illnesses that can come with trauma and neglect they go "uh the pills to treat the disease are causing the disease". The human brain and what motivates it to kill hasn't really changed for most of history, we just now have the ability for one person to kill so many more people.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:25
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Democrats in Congress and getting mad at Biden. Everyone should read the whole article but a few highlights: quote:* "Rudderless, aimless and hopeless" is how one member of Congress described the White House. I post this because the last quote actually irritated me. I imagine Clinton wouldn't of taken this lying down and would of been trying to come up with deals in the Senate. It's loving July man, make the deals, twist arms, do what the gently caress ever because in two months nothing is getting done. And quite frankly the long view won't loving matter when you have a Republican house that is going to go back to do nothing, blame Democrats. Its time to lean on people, its time to pull every trick you know. You're letting your own loving caucus down, they are ASKING you for help. I think what irritates me most about this is that Kennedy, Johnson, Roosevelt, loving the people considered some of the best Presidents ever all met the moment. They all said, let me try something. Obama for all his faults tried occasionally. It's maddening.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:26
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Mooseontheloose posted:Democrats in Congress and getting mad at Biden. This is the part that really frustrates me: quote:Fundamentally, Biden and his aides are operating from a very different sense of the presidency. He's being realistic, they believe, and responsible -- not just because his options are truly limited, but specifically because he's trying to restore the structural integrity of the government and of democracy after four years of Trump. They also see him as taking a more integrated view -- moving on canceling student loan debt, for example, they believe, could imperil whatever is left of the legislative agenda that is starting to emerge from Senate negotiations. We're at a point where those institutions are actively choosing to not do their job and be hostile to Americans. In the time they've sat on student loans in the hopes of not blowing negotiations multiple other emergencies that need legislation to solve have appeared. The legislative agenda should be the multiple emergencies currently happening and then you can figure out restoring institutions because if the institutions can't deal with crisis no one will want them back.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:34
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Mooseontheloose posted:Democrats in Congress and getting mad at Biden. Yes but have you considered the very conservative, Catholic, anti-choice, pro-student-debt-enslavement, pro-police, anti-progress President is getting everything he every truly wanted without having the blood directly on his hands? In addition to associated benefits like less situational confusion because everything is starting to look more like the world decades ago?
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Jul 6, 2022 17:35
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Mooseontheloose posted:Democrats in Congress and getting mad at Biden. Holy crap, this administration is set to be the worst Democratic administration since Andrew Johnson.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'd blame similar parents for tons of disaffected young white men falling into the alt-right even if they don't go so far as murder. Idk a solution but god the boomer/x parenting style hosed us. Society makes it so that, unless you intervene, the default path for a young white man is going to be toxic conservatism. Social media algorithms have only accelerated this.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:41
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MooselanderII posted:Holy crap, this administration is set to be the worst Democratic administration since Andrew Johnson. Still got a ways to go before he eclipses Wilson in that regard.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:44
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Mooseontheloose posted:Democrats in Congress and getting mad at Biden. Yea. At this point asking nicely sure hasn't paid off - we all know what happened with the BBB act after all. And it's not like arm twisting could make anything worse what with how it's looking likely that in half a year they won't have that trifecta. Anecdotally, most folks I know who were defending Biden up to this point seem to have reached a breaking point after the Roe v Wade repeal. And who can blame them? From how the Biden administration has reacted since the decision it comes across like they legitimately pretended the leak wasn't real.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:47
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*bangs fist on table* trains trains Trains TRAINS https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/07/06/amtrak-expansion-freight-rails/ Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 18:05
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Yinlock posted:Victims of parental/educational abuse sometimes grow up and advocate for those same things, usually out of a desperate desire to believe that the people they looked up to were normal and doing it for their own good and not just pieces of poo poo taking out theiir stress on children. This is where a lot of the accusations of Coddling The Youth comes from and leads to poo poo like the ol' Learning Paddle still going on. A professional I know, when discussing people who are pro-physical punishment on kids because they themselves were hit, contextualized it like this: It's not just that kids are being taught the wrong lesson- that those who are stronger/have authority can essentially create rules and dispense punishment as they see fit- it's that they were only ever taught that. There is punishment for violating the rules but they were never actually taught what is right.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:53
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Diet Crack posted:I love how everything is about 'high capacity magazines' and not 'maybe we should stop selling guns to people with serious mental illness history' From a few pages back, but this comes up frequently and is totally backwards. Besides guns making it easier for us [people with serious mental illnesses] to kill ourselves, we're statistically much less likely to commit violence. In fact, what we are more likely is to be the victims of violence. There is a small but statically significant percentage of these shooters with schizophrenia compared to the population at large, but other than that "wanting to kill people" isn't actually a mental illness so you can't really screen for it that way.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:07
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I'm not asking gun discussion be moved out of here at this time, but a reminder that we do have a dedicated thread on gun control and the broader discussion not directly related to events over the weekend might be more appropriate for there : https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4003545
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Jul 6, 2022 19:13
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Bear Enthusiast posted:From a few pages back, but this comes up frequently and is totally backwards. Besides guns making it easier for us [people with serious mental illnesses] to kill ourselves, we're statistically much less likely to commit violence. In fact, what we are more likely is to be the victims of violence. Again, a good example of how rightwing talking points penetrate even left wing spaces through repetition. Less than 1 in 10 mass shooters have any history of mental illness. Constantly talking about mental illness in connection with mass shootings is ceding ground to reactionaries who aren't remotely interested in having a serious conversation about mental healthcare in any context that isn't "making them take the blame for gun violence" and won't support the spending needed in mental healthcare despite saying it's the problem. It's the guns. And people don't like talking about it being the guns because there aren't any really good or even really possible solutions. It's just a price we're going to have to keep paying.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:26
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https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1544664768832802820 https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/1544680350953226240 Senate Democrats have most of the specifics of a reconciliation bill agreed to. It's essentially what was reported earlier this week. Schumer wants a vote before the August recess. Manchin has agreed to most of it in exchange for making half of the revenue go to deficit reduction. The total bill would be raise $1 trillion in taxes over 10 years, reduce the deficit by $634 billion ($500 billion directly + $134 billion in indirect savings and policy changes), and add $500 billion in spending. The rough overview: - Half goes to deficit reduction. - A slightly modified (and surprisingly improved) version of the prescription drug pricing plan from the original BBB: quote:The retooled prescription drug pricing proposal is largely similar to the blueprint that Democrats put forward last year, according to three people familiar with the matter, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the deliberations. It generally empowers the U.S. government to negotiate the price of select drugs on behalf of Medicare beneficiaries, a move Democrats say will bring down costs in the coming years. - About 3/5 of the green energy and climate provisions from the original BBB. - Revenue raises are the same that Sinema agreed to in the original (no rate increases, 15% minimum corporate tax, 1% excise tax on stock buybacks, changes rules on how corporations can amortize depreciation and losses, limits the tax benefits of Roth IRAs for households with IRA balances over $20 million, and reduces the amount of write offs for foreign income.) - Everything else from the original BBB is dumped. The big things they are still trying to finalize are: - Deciding which 3/5ths of the BBB climate proposals make it in. - Extending the $0 deductible and $0 copay ACA plans that are set to expire in October. Plus, extending the boosted subsidies and income ranges for subsidies for ACA plans. Manchin wants a cheaper version that will fix the problem with "silver loading" that was inadvertently created by Trump ending some ACA price stabilization subsidies in 2017. tl;dr: When Trump ended the subsidies, it caused insurers to jack up premiums to compensate. The ACA automatically boosts subsidies to cover a % of premiums, so it ended up making the credits "worth" more and costing the federal government much more than expected to keep the prices fixed for consumers on the marketplace. Most Democrats want to fix the Silver Loading problem because it makes it possible for a President to rapidly withdraw subsidies administratively, but many of them don't want to deal with the issue in a reconciliation bill. Short background on Silver Loading: quote:Under the Affordable Care Act (ACA), insurers are required to offer reduced cost sharing to Marketplace enrollees with incomes below 250% of the federal poverty level (FPL) who enroll in silver plans. In the early years of the ACA, the federal government made payments to insurers to compensate them for the cost of providing these cost-sharing reductions (CSRs). Following a legal dispute over whether the ACA appropriated the funds needed to make CSR payments, the Trump administration ended these payments in 2017. Insurers responded by raising the premiums they charged for silver plans to offset the now-uncompensated cost of continuing to provide CSRs, a practice commonly called “silver loading.” McConnell says he will filibuster the bipartisan bill to improve the supply chain and produce semiconductors domestically if Democrats pass a reconciliation bill. https://twitter.com/LeaderMcConnell/status/1542600738823618564 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 19:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1544664768832802820 Maybe they are starting to feel the pressure at the White House? Still, when I see it, I will believe it.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:55
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Mooseontheloose posted:Maybe they are starting to feel the pressure at the White House? Still, when I see it, I will believe it. If they were serious about doing a politically smart thing, then they would probably be doing something else. Only the Medicare Rx drug provisions would kick in before the elections and be a direct benefit to people. The climate change stuff is good, but not something that will have a huge impact before the election and isn't really a big vote-getter. The ACA stuff is basically preventing a disaster and keeping the bonus subsidies that have been around for the last 1.5 years. So, it is a good thing for peoples' wallets, but it isn't a "new" thing that will make an impact politically since it has been in effect since April 2021. The tax stuff is all really obvious easy things, but nothing that is going to move people politically. The deficit reduction will reduce the need for some tiny fraction of future tax increases or spending cuts by lowering the amount of the budget that goes to paying off the debt. Nothing anybody is going to care about when voting. Also, even this is still "believe it when I see it" territory. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 20:00
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Yeah, I don’t see what the difference is between this situation and the last time the bill was nearly done except for a few trivial loose ends
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Jul 6, 2022 20:49
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haveblue posted:Yeah, I don’t see what the difference is between this situation and the last time the bill was nearly done except for a few trivial loose ends The terror of hitting the last months of the campaign trail without anything getting passed? And an almost certain-to-be-confirmed recession? Sigh. Bleah.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:53
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Tucker Carlson, Senator Marsha Blackburn, Senator Ron Johnson, and several Republican House members have now joined the Church of Scientology in coming out against SSRIs and other psychiatric drugs. The actual elected officials haven't actually proposed any legislative solution to it, but support the idea that teens and young adults shouldn't be taking them. https://twitter.com/abughazalehkat/status/1544475198568677376
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Jul 6, 2022 20:56
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Mitch McConnell: "If you do the thing I don't like, I'll filibuster all your bills!" Democrats: "Weren't you going to do that anyway?" Mitch: "Yes". Dems: "poo poo what can we do to appease you?"
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Jul 6, 2022 21:10
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Tucker Carlson, Senator Marsha Blackburn, Senator Ron Johnson, and several Republican House members have now joined the Church of Scientology in coming out against SSRIs and other psychiatric drugs. So what's really happening is Tucker refuses to take his meds and wants the rest of the country to back him up. Yeah that tracks.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:11
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Tucker Carlson, Senator Marsha Blackburn, Senator Ron Johnson, and several Republican House members have now joined the Church of Scientology in coming out against SSRIs and other psychiatric drugs. Yeah, this is the expected outcome. If all we do is talk about mental health as the cause because we don't want to talk about guns AND don't do anything about mental health either reactionaries will latch onto "the cure makes them sick" like they have so many times before.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:11
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Mendrian posted:Mitch McConnell: "If you do the thing I don't like, I'll filibuster all your bills!" It's slightly different his time. He is threatening to filibuster a bill he and most of the Republican caucus support, because killing a bipartisan bill to improve supply chain times and help alleviate the semiconductor shortage is the only leverage he has, since he is already routinely filibustering every bill they oppose. The only move is to start filibustering bills they support to.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:14
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Gumball Gumption posted:Yeah, this is the expected outcome. If all we do is talk about mental health as the cause because we don't want to talk about guns AND don't do anything about mental health either reactionaries will latch onto "the cure makes them sick" like they have so many times before. Which is why it's very aggravating for me to see folks talking about mental health with regards to mass shootings in spaces that are nominally left.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:20
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Jaxyon posted:Which is why it's very aggravating for me to see folks talking about mental health with regards to mass shootings in spaces that are nominally left. Nah, that's also dumb because then you're just getting mad at people describing reality. The majority of these shooters were also in a mental health crisis before they took action. Some of them for years. The majority were victims of child abuse or neglect which is common in people who kill in general, not just in these mass shooters I can't do jack poo poo about guns because I'm not one of the handful of people who can change the constitution but I can do a lot about mental health and helping at risk kids so they all seem worth discussing. I don't think left spaces should be tempering their discussions based on what politicians are too ineffective to solve. Getting rid of guns will slow down mass shootings, better mental health and services for abused and neglected children would slow down murders in general.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:27
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Gumball Gumption posted:Nah, that's also dumb because then you're just getting mad at people describing reality. The majority of these shooters were also in a mental health crisis before they took action. Some of them for years. No it's actually about 1 in 10. Prevalence in general population is 8%, in mass shooters it's 11%. Slightly elevated but nowhere near a majority. If you're talking about describing reality it would be useful you to actually describe reality instead of reheating "guns don't kill people, people kill people" that is essentially a lefty version of blaming mental health for the mass shootings that gun culture creates.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:41
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Jaxyon posted:Less than 1 in 10 mass shooters have any history of mental illness. Constantly talking about mental illness in connection with mass shootings is ceding ground to reactionaries who aren't remotely interested in having a serious conversation about mental healthcare in any context that isn't "making them take the blame for gun violence" and won't support the spending needed in mental healthcare despite saying it's the problem. "History of mental illness" and "in a mental health crisis" are not at all the same thing.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:43
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Jaxyon posted:No it's actually about 1 in 10. Prevalence in general population is 8%, in mass shooters it's 11%. Slightly elevated but nowhere near a majority. quote:More than two-thirds of mass shooters had a history of mental health concerns, which is higher than the 50% of people in the general population who will satisfy criteria for a mental illness at some point in their lives. https://www.theviolenceproject.org/mass-shooter-database/ I think you're misunderstanding having a mental health disease or disorder and being in a crisis. We are also developing a solid profile on who commits mass shootings. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/27/stopping-mass-shooters-q-a-00035762 It's good science. And at no point am I saying don't ban guns. Absolutely ban guns. But there are two problems here, the fact that people want to kill other people and then how easy it is to do in this modern age so someone who previously would of been a serial killer, family annihilator, or possibly just suicidal are now able to easily carry out mass murder suicides. Politicians may use this as an excuse for inaction but that doesn't mean behavioral science and what it can tell us about our behavior should just be ignored. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 21:50
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I do wonder sometimes how many of the rampage killers might have otherwise become serial killers, especially the ones that were explicitly incel motivated.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:54
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https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1544775486554898432?s=21&t=5VK98fuEbx1jRt5DRB77XA They were planning on nominating the anti-abortion judge AFTER the leak came out. Fortunately, they didn’t do it (yet) but this shows that the administration can not meet this moment at all.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:59
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