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Nephthys posted:Regarding the specific question of 'If Bakugo's explosions are effective, why not use real weapons?', well Bakugo's explosions actually weren't effective until he power-levelled off-screen and got this crazy support-item. He blasted Shiggy straight in the face and all it did was knock his hand off, zero damage. In the war, he used his strongest attacks on Shiggy who outright made fun of them for being too weak for him to care about. So normal explosions don't necessarily cut it. Bakugo's shots in training could punch through cement walls. It's fair to say that, even early on, he wasn't using small explosions.
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Jul 6, 2022 23:50
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shigaraki was borderline indestructible even before getting the Madara Uchiha Spa Special, his resilience shouldn't really be used as a point of comparison for anything
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Jul 7, 2022 00:06
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TheKingslayer posted:It's been forever but I think they claim they aren't even sure what can kill him? But uh, he's hooked up to life support if I'm not mistaken. Just unhook it and wait. Yeah imagine if there was a reveal that AfO was being held in Tartarus not for imprisonment, but for execution, and they can't figure out how to do it
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Jul 7, 2022 00:42
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Scholtz posted:Yeah imagine if there was a reveal that AfO was being held in Tartarus not for imprisonment, but for execution, and they can't figure out how to do it AFO specifically isn't bullet proof. If he used his quirks in Tartarus, he would have instantly been gunned down. They should have put Bakugo on the AFO team, not the Shigaraki one.
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Jul 7, 2022 01:30
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Both the Tartarus case and Bakugo's case were a whole lotta gun in a pretty short range, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they'd be any good when used the way guns are actually supposed to be used ie at a distance.
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Jul 7, 2022 01:40
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Oxxidation posted:shigaraki was borderline indestructible even before getting the Madara Uchiha Spa Special, his resilience shouldn't really be used as a point of comparison for anything Shigaraki wasn't really indestructable originally, he was just driven and psychotic. Being shot a bunch of times in nonlethal areas by Snipe hosed him up real bad and caused him real pain. Snipe probably could have domed him at USJ and ended everything, but that would have been wrong and hosed up and massively out of character for the heroes because at that point he was just a very dangerous criminal instead of an unstoppable evil demigod bent on the mass death of the entire country.
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Jul 7, 2022 01:55
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Kanos posted:Shigaraki wasn't really indestructable originally, he was just driven and psychotic. Being shot a bunch of times in nonlethal areas by Snipe hosed him up real bad and caused him real pain. Snipe probably could have domed him at USJ and ended everything, but that would have been wrong and hosed up and massively out of character for the heroes because at that point he was just a very dangerous criminal instead of an unstoppable evil demigod bent on the mass death of the entire country. Nah, he was actively trying to murder children even then.
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Jul 7, 2022 02:01
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I feel like going "Iron Man has Guns" kind of misses the point because he... actually usually doesn't. Iron Man's signature technology is the Repulsor Beam, which are explicitly customizable laser beams he invented himself that can be non-lethal and usually are. The Iron Man suit is explicitly equipped with non-lethal weaponry because Iron Man was giving up arms manufacturing. (Obviously this has phased in and out but by and large Iron Man isn't actually Gun Man.) War Machine is gun man but that is a defining factor in his suit that he is equipped with traditional lethal weaponry in comparison to the Repulsor Beams and even then it usually sucks unless it has been upgraded using space technology or whatever. I am actually hard pressed to think of superheroes besides The Punisher who actually do use guns in any meaningful fashion. Deadpool maybe, but Deadpool's biggest weapon is his magic space katanas and near invincibility. Cable and other Liefeldians carry hilariously oversize laser guns but when push comes to shove it is their innate powers that matter more (and even the laser guns are like convenietly terrible at actually hurting people.) Rocket Raccoon uses guns but they are explicitly absurd ridiculous super space guns that he modifies himself which is basically a superpower as far as the plot is concerned. If a character uses a gun it's usually some kind of extension of their character, not because it's notably more effective than anything else. That is how superhero stuff works. It's like complaining that mecha shows have people piloting giant humanoid weapons despite that being a fuckin' stupid idea. It's the genre.
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Jul 7, 2022 02:29
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ImpAtom posted:If a character uses a gun it's usually some kind of extension of their character, not because it's notably more effective than anything else. That is how superhero stuff works. It's like complaining that mecha shows have people piloting giant humanoid weapons despite that being a fuckin' stupid idea. It's the genre. I'd expect that mechas are supposed to be effective weapons in a mecha show, even if they're a dumb idea in real life. But in MHA there's a hero who uses guns, the people guarding Tartarus had guns, the robots at Tartarus also had guns, there was a villain who used a gun and was a real threat (yes his quirk let him know where people were in the fog, but if there was no fog to hide in the first place it seems like he'd have been a huge threat to Tetsux4 and big hands girl), and the yanks tried to kill Afo-Shiggy with (non-quirk) lasers. The whole question probably wouldn't have risen up if the guards and robots at Tartarus didn't have guns and a C-list villain hadn't used them, but they did so it's fairly well established that guns are a real threat to (most) villains and heroes. If a mecha show had people show up with regular tanks and fighting mechas without getting wrecked people would probably ask why anyone was using mechas in the first place, too.
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Jul 7, 2022 03:55
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Staltran posted:I'd expect that mechas are supposed to be effective weapons in a mecha show, even if they're a dumb idea in real life. But in MHA there's a hero who uses guns, the people guarding Tartarus had guns, the robots at Tartarus also had guns, there was a villain who used a gun and was a real threat (yes his quirk let him know where people were in the fog, but if there was no fog to hide in the first place it seems like he'd have been a huge threat to Tetsux4 and big hands girl), and the yanks tried to kill Afo-Shiggy with (non-quirk) lasers. The whole question probably wouldn't have risen up if the guards and robots at Tartarus didn't have guns and a C-list villain hadn't used them, but they did so it's fairly well established that guns are a real threat to (most) villains and heroes. If a mecha show had people show up with regular tanks and fighting mechas without getting wrecked people would probably ask why anyone was using mechas in the first place, too. Again, this is the genre. Both Marvel and DC prisons are staffed with people armed with guns that are entirely irrelevant when things actually happen, even against characters who they theoretically should be effective against. That is because the death of drama is "and now (x) character is entirely irrelevant because a random dude shot them in the head." Like Batman is "A dude in a suit who fights gangsters" and his arch nemesis is "Literally a guy in clown makeup" and guns don't actually stop either of them. It's how the genre works in the same was that guns are influenced by almost every genre they are in because in real life guns are super loving lethal. They are explicitly made to kill people and you can get all the fanfiction you want about how Batman would TOTALLY be dead in the first five minutes but then you don't have a story. The genre says the main characters, be they a dude with a bow or a demigod, are not actually going to be threatened by guns unless it is dramatically appropriate or carries character weight. It's fine if you don't like it but MHA has been a series based in superhero + shonen near the start. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 04:07
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If the author can use "guns can kill these heroes and villains" as a plot point (Mustard and Tartarus), it invites the readers to think about where else guns might be used. MHA has been around a fraction of as long as Marvel or DC, and only under a single writer. If guns should be a non-issue, then Horikoshi has fumbled it.
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Jul 7, 2022 04:21
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oh jay posted:If the author can use "guns can kill these heroes and villains" as a plot point (Mustard and Tartarus), it invites the readers to think about where else guns might be used. DC and Marvel literally have villains whose specific gimmick is "this guy is SO GOOD with a gun he can pose a threat to heroes." Like Superman almost got taken out by a guy whose gimmick was 'really good at gun' once. Also this has been around since the start, the super-powerful superheroes came after a long legacy of dudes whose gimmick was largely "had a suit and a car." It's also weirdly hyper focused. Why does it invite you to think about guns but literally nothing else inherent to the promise? Like "characters can punch each other multiple times" or "it's possible to knock someone out with no lasting harm" or "wouldn't fire powers actually cause someone to die just by being used near them?" Why must guns being enshrined in the precious place of Needs Special Answers?
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Jul 7, 2022 04:30
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oh jay posted:If the author can use "guns can kill these heroes and villains" as a plot point (Mustard and Tartarus), it invites the readers to think about where else guns might be used. Guns are used by bad people, except in the one case of Snipe where he can be perfectly non-lethal. That is the answer, Lady Nagant specifically had a breakdown over her being treated as a great hero whilst sniping people to death with her gun. Heroes don't (normally) kill and guns are normally lethal. That's it, that is the logic. Mustard specifically does not in fact kill with his gun, and whilst it does cause Tetsutetsu Tetsutetsu issues, that's more because he's not able to breath and focus on maintaining his quirk the longer that fight goes on.
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Jul 7, 2022 04:30
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ImpAtom posted:It's also weirdly hyper focused. Why does it invite you to think about guns but literally nothing else inherent to the promise? The Stars and Stripe fight was terrible narratively, but it did power levels correctly. It clearly said that anything mad-made, including gently caress-off lasers, are meaningless against super-powers. That's what everyone in this thread wants! Maybe Mustard is a wash, because he didn't actually do anything. But the narrative unambiguously said that AFO could have been ventilated by turrets in Tartarus and I truly believe that's a misstep in storytelling. He could have put Tartarus at the bottom of the ocean, rigged to flood with thousands of USAofSmashes of pressure if he tried to escape. Or some kind of compliance disc technology that could keep prisoners docile, but convoluted in actual combat. There were so many other options that don't lead to the reader wondering why people don't get murked by man-made tech, up-to and including guns.
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Jul 7, 2022 04:50
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The real answer is that guns in comics are only ever as lethal as the plot wants them to be. So you can have guys who are normally bullet proof get sniped and assassinated by bullets if the plot demands it (it's okay they'll be special bullets, I'm sure) but then maybe those bullets won't ever work again, or no one will conveniently ever have those bullets when they don't need someone to get plot shot.
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Jul 7, 2022 04:51
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Arist posted:"Instead of using their fun superpowers, everyone should have a gun" is like something an alien would write, I feel like I'm losing my mind even having to argue this. I agree with you, EDF needs less guns and more people with superpowers in the mix!
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Jul 7, 2022 04:53
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ImpAtom posted:Again, this is the genre. Both Marvel and DC prisons are staffed with people armed with guns that are entirely irrelevant when things actually happen, even against characters who they theoretically should be effective against. That is because the death of drama is "and now (x) character is entirely irrelevant because a random dude shot them in the head." Is it a plot point that no one has ever escaped from those prisons? And even the main villain is only able to escape because he can perfectly co-ordinate with two overpowered bodies, one of which is outside the prison? Was it dramatically appropriate that AFO was threatened by the machine guns in Tartarus, and could only escape once they were taken offline? That seems like a reach at best. While guns might be generally ineffective in the genre, in MHA specifically they have been shown to be effective. ImpAtom posted:It's also weirdly hyper focused. Why does it invite you to think about guns but literally nothing else inherent to the promise? Like "characters can punch each other multiple times" or "it's possible to knock someone out with no lasting harm" or "wouldn't fire powers actually cause someone to die just by being used near them?" Why must guns being enshrined in the precious place of Needs Special Answers? Because there have been (AFAIK) no instances in the manga where peoples hands have been hosed up by puching someone (at least someone not made of rock/metal, maybe someone's hosed themselves up by trying to hit Kirishima), dying from head injuries that weren't obviously immediately fatal, or asphyxiating from being near Todorokis throwing around huge fire blasts. But guns have been shown to be effective, especially with Tartarus. Like what oh jay said about AFO in Tartarus. Lord_Magmar posted:Heroes don't (normally) kill and guns are normally lethal. But, again, the heroes are trying to kill here. So again, why does the Japanese military do nothing?
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Jul 7, 2022 05:01
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just give Mai Hatsume a minigun with Momo providing her unlimited bullets
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Jul 7, 2022 05:03
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CharlestonJew posted:just give Mai Hatsume a minigun with Momo providing her unlimited bullets Who is force-feeding Momo in this situation? I need to know by around 10:30 tonight.
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Jul 7, 2022 05:04
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Staltran posted:Because there have been (AFAIK) no instances in the manga where peoples hands have been hosed up by puching someone Probably the worst possible example you could have chosen here, lmao
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Jul 7, 2022 05:05
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Staltran posted:Is it a plot point that no one has ever escaped from those prisons? And even the main villain is only able to escape because he can perfectly co-ordinate with two overpowered bodies, one of which is outside the prison? Yes. Like literally they are defined as "the super prisons we put the really dangerous guys into" and then the really dangerous guys escape constantly. Staltran posted:While guns might be generally ineffective in the genre, in MHA specifically they have been shown to be effective. They have also been shown to be ineffective. Just like every other superhero story. A gun can be threatening if it's dramatically appropriate (like explaining why AFO is contained) and then stops being threatening the moment that stops. Do you think MHA is the only superhero story with superprisons with miniguns? Because it sure ain't. Guns, like any other weapon, function on the rules of being threatening when the plot demands and meaningless when it doesn't. The story is not trying to focus on realism. It doesn't need to be internally consistent because it never is trying to be because everything in superhero stories runs off the drama of the moment. Power levels are meaningless in a genre where Batman can defeat Superman or Spider-Man can solo the entire X-Men team. Superheroes run on story logic before anything else. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 05:07
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ImpAtom posted:Yes. Like literally they are defined as "the super prisons we put the really dangerous guys into" and then the really dangerous guys escape constantly. What other Tartarus escape was there other than THE Tartarus Escape?
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Jul 7, 2022 05:10
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oh jay posted:What other Tartarus escape was there other than THE Tartarus Escape? I am talking about the American comics that inspire MHA. And likewise, unless you have a lovely writer who thinks they're being clever pointing it out, no amount of escapes from Arkham Asylum make it stop being treated as a legitimate place to send The Joker. Because in the story logic it is, even if you can point out it never actually does that job. Yes, it makes no sense if you try to look at it realistically because it isn't supposed to be realistic. Superheroes are soap operas with fighting where the fighting is either meaningless fluff or defined entirely by what is dramatically appropriate at that moment. (You know, a lot like shonen manga!)
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Jul 7, 2022 05:16
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Deku doesn't count!!ImpAtom posted:Yes. Like literally they are defined as "the super prisons we put the really dangerous guys into" and then the really dangerous guys escape constantly. Right, which the really dangerous guys escape constantly... When have guns been shown to be ineffective? You mean against Kiri/Tetsu or what? e: unlike Batman's rogues's gallery being repeatedly thrown into Arkham, AFO was thrown into Tartarus precisely once, and after escaping the heroes are now trying to kill him instead of sending him back to prison. Staltran fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 05:17
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Staltran posted:Deku doesn't count!! Literally every time we've seen guns they have not actually been effective unless used as part of a superpower. Guns don't show up as often because Japan doesn't have Guns as their national religion which we make human sacrifices to daily but it's effectively the same treatment. Staltran posted:e: unlike Batman's rogues's gallery being repeatedly thrown into Arkham, AFO was thrown into Tartarus precisely once, and after escaping the heroes are now trying to kill him instead of sending him back to prison. Cool? It's still a superhero comic story where at the end of the day the main heroes actually want to help and redeem people. It has always been this. The point is not the REALISM. The point is the drama. This is also true of many other shonen stories so it's fuckin' bewildering to me that it is suddenly unacceptable here. "I trained with my grandfather" is usually enough of an excuse to make anyone who picked up a piece of metal capable of utterly trivializing people with guns. You don't need to explain why Nami doesn't get sniped in the head in One Piece because the answer is "that makes for a lovely story" and guns in OP also transform from incredibly dangerous to basically jokes. Hell, I love the Yakuza games and guns in those shift from "immensely dangerous" to "basically jokes" to "the protagonist can shoot people in the chest with a shotgun and then take less damage than if he hit them with a bicycle." Those are literally games about mobsters and they are more likely to throw off their shirt and fistfight than shoot each other despite guns being shown to be very very effective. You don't need to explain why someone isn't shooting someone when the answer is "because using their superpower in a fistfight is cooler." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 05:21
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ImpAtom posted:I am talking about the American comics that inspire MHA. I don't care about American comics (I actually do, but not in this conversation). I'm asking, that within the story, that why didn't AFO escape from Tartarus? The answer given within the story is that it's because he's afraid of guns. I'm saying that Horikoshi could have given literally any other answer to that question, including no answer at all, and things would have been better. The history of Arkham Asylum does not factor into this at all, only the in-universe description of Tartarus.
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Jul 7, 2022 05:27
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oh jay posted:I don't care about American comics (I actually do, but not in this conversation). That is irrelevant because MHA doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists within an already existing genre and adheres to that genre unless it is explicitly subverting it, the same as all other fiction. This question only comes up when someone wants to Cinemasins about something they dislike because the existing answer is "that isn't how the genre functions in fiction and hyper-focus on realism tends to hurt the storytelling that they are going for unless the realism is a major point." Do you think Fullmetal Alchemist is bad? Because it does the same thing. So does One Piece. So do a lot of stories. "Why do they not merely shoot Edward Elric in the head because bullets are by their very nature faster than any alchemy" is not a question you need to answer because the plot is "even though Edward could theoretically be killed by guns and guns are shown to be lethal, within the confines of the story guns are not more dangerous than his powers unless dramatically relevant." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 05:30
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ImpAtom posted:That is irrelevant because MHA doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists within an already existing genre and adheres to that genre unless it is explicitly subverting it, the same as all other fiction. This question only comes up when someone wants to Cinemasins about something they dislike because the existing answer is "that isn't how the genre functions in fiction and hyper-focus on realism tends to hurt the storytelling that they are going for unless the realism is a major point." Ignore my other sentences then. Is AFO afraid of guns or not?
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Jul 7, 2022 05:34
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I think they should shoot him
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Jul 7, 2022 05:34
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The story being inconsistent on the subject of guns isn't actually an inherent flaw, part of storytelling is distracting from stuff like that because nothing is airtight. But at the same time, AFO not being merc'd with guns isn't even an "inconsistency," it's just a thing the story doesn't directly address.
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Jul 7, 2022 05:40
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oh jay posted:Ignore my other sentences then. Is AFO afraid of guns or not? And the answer remains "within the fiction of the story AFO can be concerned about guns when they are pointed directly at him at a dramatic moment and not have them be his Secret Kryptonite Weak Point Which Must Be Used." There is nothing special about guns except they are a convenient visual shorthand to imply he is heavily guarded. You could have had swords hanging over his head and it would have the same effect but I bet you wouldn't be asking why they don't try to drop swords on him. AFO doesn't have -10 to Guns and everyone should grab an AK because he can't stop them. When entirely restrained the guns (may have) been able to kill him the same as loving anything. He could have been over an acid bath. He could have been on a rocket that would be shot into space. It's irrelevant because they weren't keeping him confined with something that was super effective on him. Guns don't do anything to AFO that literally any other weapon couldn't. The only time guns are relevant is if you're putting guns in a special category where it needs to be addressed why they are using their superpowers instead of guns and the answer is "because this is a manga about superpowered teenagers fighting evil, not about guys with guns." It might be funny to have a shonen manga where every battle ended with the protagonist pulling out a handgun and shooting a dude who is explaining their powerset but it isn't what the audience for this particular story is here for. (note to self: copyright One Shot Man.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 05:41
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Staltran posted:But, again, the heroes are trying to kill here. So again, why does the Japanese military do nothing? The people they are specifically trying to kill (AfO, Shigaraki) are immune to bullets. The rest of the villains are not being actively targeted for death. As for why the guns in Tartarus worked, AfO was having his quirks suppressed at the time (and attempting to overpower the suppression would get him shot before whatever quirk would protect him from guns would kick in). Additionally even if the guns are merely an inconvenience, Tartarus likely has other methods too. Also, Tartarus is explicitly not a good thing in the narrative. You can be locked up without trial in the worst superprison in the world, like Lady Nagant was, for disagreeing with the hero commission. It using guns like that isn't intended to be a good thing in the first place, because executing someone (in general, but also specifically) without trial is really loving sketchy. So again, guns are things villains, and exactly one hero uses, and that one hero has the ability to perfectly aim for non-lethal shots. Guns aren't seen as heroic in Japan in general as far as I know, but I am willing to be proven wrong. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jul 7, 2022 |
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Jul 7, 2022 06:20
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oh jay posted:Ignore my other sentences then. Is AFO afraid of guns or not?  Yeah this would've been solved in half a second if someone had been strapped. This is some real 'I can't wrap my head around the monsters in A Quiet Place not being stopped by the full force of the American Military's armory' energy
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Jul 7, 2022 06:35
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For what it's worth, All Might punched AFO so hard it caused a tornado that erased a whole city block and that didn't do the job, so I'm not sure any gun we could make would do much more than annoy him.
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Jul 7, 2022 07:34
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AFO and Shigaraki might be functionally immune to bullets at this point, but there's also a gigantic army of other villains who the heroes are slashed to the bone trying to hold out against because they committed the vast majority of their heavy hitters and support staff to containing AFO and Shigaraki.
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Jul 7, 2022 12:01
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ngl i have completely lost the beat of what's being discussed here. guns don't work on these guys at this point right? fairly sure they'd have shot them a lot otherwise.
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Jul 7, 2022 13:34
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tbp posted:ngl i have completely lost the beat of what's being discussed here. guns don't work on these guys at this point right? fairly sure they'd have shot them a lot otherwise. Yeah, it's in reference to how effective can Bakugo really be when you can directly compare his power output to conventional weaponry.
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Jul 7, 2022 14:49
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I don't think anyone is asking why they aren't shooting shigaraki because he's obviously basically immortal. The question is more why villains like stain don't use guns, because "owns firearm" is basically an A-tier quirk on its own, as they should be able to kill most heroes who aren't like tetsu or kirishima or all might fairly easily.
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Jul 7, 2022 14:58
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Mymla posted:I don't think anyone is asking why they aren't shooting shigaraki because he's obviously basically immortal. Because Stain is a crazy person who wants to kill heroes with a sword. Also because I assume it's much more difficult to get your hands on a gun in Japan than it is in America.
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Jul 7, 2022 16:27
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Characters in fiction using implausible weapons I stead of being tactically realistic really doesn't need to be explained. I feel like I stepped into bizarre land where 'why does this anime character use a sword' isn't answered with 'because swords are cool and fit the character.'
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Jul 7, 2022 16:37
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