|
My understanding was that in the early MotoGP era 2t was allowed only at half the displacement of 4t. Which looks pretty awful for 4t regardless of any powerband issues. Unless you wanna argue that displacement is irrelevant and fuel consumption or engine size/weight or something is the comparison that matters, which seems like a valid argument in principle, except no racing categories work without displacement as far as I'm aware.
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 04:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:11 |
|
|
Yeah it was 2t 500's vs 4t 990's. That's my whole point! The 2t makes twice as many combustion events as the 4t, per unit of time, per cylinder. So the rules made sense from a power balance perspective; it's analogous to NA vs turbo power balancing rules in cars. So their power outputs are nominally comparable, with the 2t being much lighter, with less crank inertia and no engine braking. The 4t's were given double the displacement just to be competitive. Despite these considerable advantages the 4t's won easily because of their far superior drive and mid corner behaviour. They didn't win by having more brute power; the gentle giant v5 Hondas lost their way with the departure of Rossi and chased big power to no avail, while the Yamaha hovered around the low 200's and won through corner speed and drive off the corner without having any better outright speed than the old 500's. If you made them both the same cc then that defeats the point because the bikes are basically in different performance categories altogether and can't 'race' in any meaningful sense. Double the firing events are as big as advantage as forced induction or wankelry. I'm not impugning the honor of two strokes or something.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 04:52
|
|
|
I've got a question about the right hand during deceleration, not quite sure how to put it. Say you're approaching the ideal stop sign from 60mph and have however much time you want. From what I've gathered you're ideally gradually closing the throttle, but also blipping the throttle for downshifts, and simultaneously applying pressure to the front brake. If I have that right, how does your hand do that? The more I get on the brake, the less throttle control I have because my thumb's acting as an anchor. When I try to downshift and engine brake properly, I can't apply front brake. I've gotten used to 4 fingers fanned over the brake and modulating the throttle with the crotch of my thumb. Is this normal, or do most people wrap their pointer finger around the throttle and brake with the other 3?
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 05:33
|
|
|
When i need to control the throttle and front brake, I can squeeze the brake with my pointer and middle finger OKish. My hands are on the small side for a dude. It is not super easy to do, which is why like on hills most people use the rear brake when stopped so the full hand can be used on the throttle. I have also done it as you describe.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 05:48
|
|
|
Remy Marathe posted:I've got a question about the right hand during deceleration, not quite sure how to put it. Say you're approaching the ideal stop sign from 60mph and have however much time you want. From what I've gathered you're ideally gradually closing the throttle, but also blipping the throttle for downshifts, and simultaneously applying pressure to the front brake. If I have that right, how does your hand do that? The more I get on the brake, the less throttle control I have because my thumb's acting as an anchor. When I try to downshift and engine brake properly, I can't apply front brake. It's hard, and the variables are dizzying. Practice is the biggest thing, dividing the work between your fingers is how you do it but how you do that varies by personal preference. I usually brake with my first 2-3 fingers and operate the throttle with my thumb and pinky, some people brake with 2 or even 1 finger. The clutch is your friend, slipper clutches (and two strokes!) make this much easier.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 05:53
|
|
|
Adjust your lever (or get one that can be adjusted), so that you can have ring/pinkie on the throttle and the 2 others on the brake. Forget about the rear brake. This was like lesson 1 when I got on a bike. (how to hold the throttle and brake). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47YG4dAwOIM&t=2s Just focus on the hand/lever position stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 05:56
|
|
|
I brake with only the tips of my fingers so I still have some range of motion with the rest of my hand. How many, which fingers, etc., is a matter of preference. I used to use 2 but now I mostly use 3.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 06:30
|
|
|
Commonly it's 2 & 2, but if you still have control over the throttle.....
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 06:37
|
|
|
Having brakes that are easier to pull at the lever also helps. For reasons, some are more difficult than others and if you’ve been riding forever you don’t really notice but when you’re new your muscles aren’t used to just pulling a stupid tiny lever over and over again and can get tired/it may be more difficult. Ideally, I think, you’d do it with one finger or maybe two but as folks have said whatever let’s you control throttle, provide input on the bars and also apply appropriate brake pressure is OK. Just slowly work toward fewer fingers if you want to. I would like to brake with one but use two.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 12:56
|
|
|
Slavvy, do i have to blip the throttle on downshifts with a slipper clutch?
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 15:49
|
|
|
You should because it rules. You never HAVE to do it though
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 17:11
|
|
|
Change gears quickly and match your revs to the best of your ability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LR9tTE-dSE edit: I guess for context, this guy lets his revs drops down massively (from ~11k down to ~5k), then dumps his clutch thinking the slipper will fix it up. There's only so much it can deal with. Small speed mismatches between wheel/transmission and engine, that's what the slipper is for. You are in control of the bike. Rider aides, whether they are mechanical or electronic, are simply aides. Toe Rag fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jul 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 17:26
|
|
|
Riding home from work this evening I see someone coming the other way down a country lane and I give him the nod. This hero nods back, drops a cog and hauls the front wheel up.  ...which brings me to my next question. UK acknowledgement from biker to biker is a little sideways nod I've seen posts from Statesiders but I can't remember exactly how you lot do it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 19:13
|
|
|
Two fingers down. Basically, an American peace sign pointed at the road so it doesn’t look like we’re signaling a stop or turn. Though sometimes the clutch requires too much attention and I give an exaggerated nod so they don’t think I’m rude.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 19:20
|
|
|
SEKCobra posted:Slavvy, do i have to blip the throttle on downshifts with a slipper clutch? It depends. Some bikes have a really powerful (in the sense of how much it reduces back-torque) slipper and not much engine braking, some are the opposite. You need to do whatever it takes to keep the bike smooth and not bobbling and pitching or breaking loose the rear (at least not when you're learning). Like the man said, you're in charge of the bike and that kind of stuff just makes it easier and less finicky to get it right. Any work you don't do, the bike has to do, and the less work the bike has to do, the better you go. This is a general principle that applies to every single aspect of bikes and riding, even things like chain maintenance is a direct trade off between pain for you vs pain for the bike. Riding bikes is like dark souls, you don't do it cause it's easy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 19:21
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:Riding bikes is like dark souls, you don't do it cause it's easy. new thread title? I think I’m already doing this the majority of the time, but now I have another thing to check about myself next time I’m out. Thanks, Slavvy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 19:54
|
|
|
Toe Rag posted:Change gears quickly and match your revs to the best of your ability. Maybe he should try sumo racing: https://youtu.be/mvO4ZLFvbVI?t=560
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2022 23:19
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:operate the throttle with my thumb and pinky When I read this earlier it sounded crazy, but once on the bike I can see how the pinky can help support the thumb from across the grip. And my pinky's not actually long enough to contribute to braking anyway, it just floats there, so ought to be put to work. Comments on adjustable levers were right on, I probably could use a closer brake lever if I want to try changing my grip. This made me realize I probably developed my 4-finger habit because of the longer brake reach it grants.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2022 01:21
|
|
|
Remy Marathe posted:When I read this earlier it sounded crazy, but once on the bike I can see how the pinky can help support the thumb from across the grip. And my pinky's not actually long enough to contribute to braking anyway, it just floats there, so ought to be put to work. You are also riding a MAN bike for MEN and this means that everything on it is too chunky for 90% of the humans on earth.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2022 02:18
|
|
|
Finally bought the big twin pack of 3M grape and orange flavored ear plugs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2022 03:56
|
|
|
I can not recommend adjustable levers enough. Thankfully my bike came with an adjustable brake lever, but no such luck on the clutch. This was ok, unfortunately I learned four finger clutching and have still not transitioned properly to two fingers. But I would not want to imagine missing the adjustability at the brake lever, it is sooo important for proper ergonomics and just properly manipulateable brakes. I have actually upgraded both to adjustable recently and it's just nice to be able to change the setup quickly and see if another setting suits you more and improve one of the most important interfaces to your bike.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2022 07:12
|
|
|
Olympic Mathlete posted:...which brings me to my next question. UK acknowledgement from biker to biker is a little sideways nod I've seen posts from Statesiders but I can't remember exactly how you lot do it. you wave your hand up high in the air making sure both your wrist and elbow are as floppy as possible also finger guns
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2022 23:20
|
|
|
i have fully converted to nods in town maybe a "rubber sided down" gesture out on the highway weird side roads get a full standing salute numberoneposter fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jul 9, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2022 03:55
|
|
|
I took to just doing a queen's wave because I thought it was amusing, but today as, I got my hand off the clutch, some guys beat me to the punch with a ridiculous hand flailing wave... I'm not entirely sure how to up the ante on this now?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 09:09
|
|
|
Fluffs McCloud posted:I took to just doing a queen's wave because I thought it was amusing, but today as, I got my hand off the clutch, some guys beat me to the punch with a ridiculous hand flailing wave... I'm not entirely sure how to up the ante on this now? stand up on the pegs and helicopter dick.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2022 09:28
|
|
|
Some weeks ago there was some kind of summit in town with VIPs being ferried to and fro. I met what must have been one of those transports with four bike cops in the lead. Rain was absolutely pouring. I gave the cops a goofy Forrest Gump wave and three of them waved back. I don't have overmuch love for cops in general but bikers are people and we were all suffering in the rain I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2022 11:34
|
|
|
Bike cops around here are chill af, they are exclusively traffic unit cops so the bike assignment is probably the most awesome part of their job and they are presumably very happy whenver they are riding. Always wave and always get a wave back. Can't speak to their give-a-break-ability but I think it's probably also pretty high.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2022 12:22
|
|
|
SEKCobra posted:Bike cops around here are chill af, they are exclusively traffic unit cops so the bike assignment is probably the most awesome part of their job and they are presumably very happy whenver they are riding. Always wave and always get a wave back. A bike cop gave my wife a $160 ticket for 10ish over and the court date was December 26.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2022 06:01
|
|
|
HenryJLittlefinger posted:A bike cop gave my wife a $160 ticket for 10ish over and the court date was December 26. almost sounds like he was hoping she'd fight it so he'd get overtime for going to court ACAB
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2022 17:47
|
|
|
Jazzzzz posted:almost sounds like he was hoping she'd fight it so he'd get overtime for going to court The american legal system is so ridiculously hosed up, jesus christ.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2022 18:16
|
|
|
so i've gotten a few hundred miles between highway driving, city, and back country roads my friend took me around on the past 2 days also had my first crash yesterday... thankfully it was very minor and all i had was a scratch on my leg we were going down one of the back roads following traffic, and then i quickly lost power. of course being inexperience i didn't realize at the time i was empty... (i had the odometer set to track my mileage but didn't realize how quickly I was burning fuel because i've had the choke on half-way most of the time, dirty carbs but that's another story) anyways so power is gone, then the engine stops... I'm going maybe 60 km/h, started braking with the rear and steered off to the shoulder, hit the gravel shoulder and totally pulled an idiot move and started pressing the front brake. bike slide and went out from under me and i did a neat little barrel roll into the dirt. picked myself up, lifted the bike up, the guy that was driving behind me stopped to make sure i was ok, and all was good. switched it over to reserve and we continued on to the nearest gas station to fill up! DOH front right fairing and mirror got smashed off, so we ziptied it back on all in all im angry i crashed but happy it was low impact and nothing got broken that can't be fixed now i know to much more careful in those situations went back out on the same roads again today and had a much more pleasant experience, it even started to rain lightly so i really got used to using rear brake and no front brake
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2022 20:28
|
|
|
Good to hear you are unharmed and the bike is fixable  But do know that you absolutely have to use your front brake in the rain. That front tire doesn't just lock up without provocation, even in the rain. Unless you're running 10 year old sporty/racey tires that only have a tread pattern to make them road legal, but otherwise try their hardest to be a slick. And even then it kinda doesn't just happen without spilled diesel or whatever. the word of the day is 'Brake Drill'. Do them, on various surfaces. Start at low speeds. Find a low traction surface like grass or a sandy road, and deliberately lock up your front (be aware that you really gotta let go of your brake quickly) to see what does and doesn't happen. When doing brake drills, give your bike the time to let the front suspension take up the weight. Don't just instantly squeeze the hell out of the lever. Even with ABS, it's bad form. LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jul 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2022 21:29
|
|
|
^^^^ even with abs it costs you heaps of time and distance, because an ABS system can't brake as hard as a tyre braking smoothly. If you load the fork properly you get the absolute maximum force pushing the tyre into the road and will almost certainly never activate abs at all; if you suddenly slam it on with no load on the tyre, it will instantly lock, at which point the abs will unlock it until it locks again, repeatedly hundreds of times, because at no point is there enough weight being transferred to get the most out of the front tyre. This translates to a much longer stopping distance than you'd get by doing a literal stoppie.Blue On Blue posted:so i've gotten a few hundred miles between highway driving, city, and back country roads my friend took me around on the past 2 days This is textbook 'I did zero practice and don't understand why I crashed, here is my rationalisation', a good cautionary tale. 'Being more careful' will have no effect on preventing a future crash, because being careless is not why you crashed. You crashed because you haven't learned the right way to create grip and load the tyres, and you haven't trained the right reactions into yourself as well as training out all the dumb poo poo your lizard brain comes up with when it's panicked. The only way to do this is through deliberate targeted learning, whatever form that might take. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jul 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2022 22:27
|
|
|
Good job not dying. It's crazy just how different traction is on different surfaces. Dirt riding is great for teaching how to ride on stuff with terrible traction because, as you discovered, holy poo poo is it shocking when you try to hit the brakes or turn and you just keep going. But you get used to it and then it's a delight.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2022 23:43
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:^^^^ even with abs it costs you heaps of time and distance, because an ABS system can't brake as hard as a tyre braking smoothly. If you load the fork properly you get the absolute maximum force pushing the tyre into the road and will almost certainly never activate abs at all; if you suddenly slam it on with no load on the tyre, it will instantly lock, at which point the abs will unlock it until it locks again, repeatedly hundreds of times, because at no point is there enough weight being transferred to get the most out of the front tyre. This translates to a much longer stopping distance than you'd get by doing a literal stoppie. ya know, i appreciate that you're a very knowledgeable poster and such, but you sure do come off as the highest of horses sometimes maybe tone it down every now and again, for the benefit of the newbies i plan to go back to a parking lot and start training the basics again, we are all human after all :edit: harsh post, long day, please just more constructive criticism that's how i learn LimaBiker posted:Good to hear you are unharmed and the bike is fixable thanks for the advice, will start practicing brake drills ASAP over confidence can be a problem i recognize too my throttle is smooth now i need to make the brake also smooth, everytime Blue On Blue fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jul 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2022 00:57
|
|
|
Now I'm confused. If I use the front brake, weight shifts onto the front wheel, that much seems obvious. How would braking harder prevent this from happening? No matter how much grip is available, wouldn't the weight transfer be limited by the maximum traction? So even if the wheel locks up completely (or activates ABS) I would still get the maximum weight transfer forward? Maybe I am forgetting an important parameter here, but just ignoring the rear brake for now, I don't understand how braking more at the front could be detrimental except for stability once it slides out.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2022 01:02
|
|
|
Blue On Blue posted:ya know, i appreciate that you're a very knowledgeable poster and such, but you sure do come off as the highest of horses sometimes Telling you the truth is not a high horse, hearing that you did something dumb is inherently hurtful, my hope is other people learn from your mistake. The whole point is to emphasize what not to do. Why do you think you crashed, seriously? Cause it isn't locking up on the gravel that caused your crash; that was just the final act which physically put you on the ground. SEKCobra posted:Now I'm confused. If I use the front brake, weight shifts onto the front wheel, that much seems obvious. How would braking harder prevent this from happening? No matter how much grip is available, wouldn't the weight transfer be limited by the maximum traction? So even if the wheel locks up completely (or activates ABS) I would still get the maximum weight transfer forward? If you suddenly snatch at the lever, the fork will never have a chance to dive and the tyre will never have a chance to compress, so you're relying on the small uncompressed contact patch for grip. If you have no abs you lock up immediately and either crash or have to release and reapply. If you have abs the system releases the brake momentarily before reapplying, it does this as a rapid pulsation and there's never really a chance for the fork to dive fully and the tyre to squash fully because part of the braking effort is being bled away. It's not about more or less, it's about applying it progressively instead of going from zero to full pressure like it's a light switch, abs picks up the pieces when you've done it wrong but you can absolutely stop faster without engaging it in the first place; this is one of the (not very good imo) reasons people argue against it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2022 01:27
|
|
|
To add onto Slavvy's response, SEKcobra: What's the faster way to accelerate a bike: burning out, or with full traction? The answer is full traction, which is why drag bikes look the way they do. Burning out wastes energy that could be converted into motion instead of roasting the tire. (E: in fact, the coefficient of friction for a sliding contact is less than it is for a static (non-sliding) contact. So with the same engine, tires, road, RPM, weight distribution and loading, everything, a burning-out tire cannot accelerate as fast as a gripping tire.) The physics works exactly the same decelerating as accelerating. So, the fastest way to stop is with full traction, and as much as possible. A skid decelerates slower. It also makes the bike uncontrollable, because now the skid is happening on the one tire that steers. Slavvy's part comes in at this point. Without the maximum normal force from full weight transfer smushing the tire against the planet, you can't generate the maximum deceleration avalaible, because you don't have the full traction available. Skidding is a self-reinforcing phenomenon! Also remember that ABS is not designed to provide you with the maximum stopping force, it's designed to interrupt a skid so that you can still control which direction the bike is pointing. Phy fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jul 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2022 01:55
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:Telling you the truth is not a high horse, hearing that you did something dumb is inherently hurtful, my hope is other people learn from your mistake. The whole point is to emphasize what not to do. Why do you think you crashed, seriously? Cause it isn't locking up on the gravel that caused your crash; that was just the final act which physically put you on the ground. ok lets discuss when i came off the hard shoulder onto the gravel i was on the rear brake, with a dead engine. it's hard to remember everything because as we know it all happens so fast, but i think the rear tire started to lose traction, i don't REALLY remember if i snatched the front brake then or if at all, it may have all been the rear tail slide that did it if i DID lock up the front brake it also caused the front tire to slide in the gravel I'm sure you had a deeper meaning to 'why' did i crash, but I'm just analysing from my perspective at this point, so what caused it? what I should have done is just stayed on the paved shoulder (tiny strip of pavement but enough to stay off the dirt) , but i was afraid at the time to stay on the pavement with traffic right behind me. at least I could have kept the bike upright and figured out what the problem was for reference this is the spot, as you see the 'shoulder' is nonexistent, as it is i ended up sideways across the gravel out of the path of traffic (thank god) 
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2022 02:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:11 |
|
|
Phy posted:To add onto Slavvy's response, SEKcobra: This is all correct with one tiny anal caveat that no learner needs to care about : maximum traction on acceleration actually happens when the wheel is spinning slightly, usually 5-15% faster than road speed. This is moderately difficult to achieve with a powerful bike on a race track, it's very easy if your bike has good rider aids. I'm not big brained enough to articulate exactly why this is but it is 100% true, any drag racer will tell you the same thing. If you could hold a front tyre on the very edge of locking as it slides into the corner entry, you could slow down more, but it's extremely difficult master-level poo poo that I've never seen done IRL, only in high level racing and stuff. Blue On Blue posted:ok lets discuss Ok, so based on your story and pictures I think they're are several points where you make decisions that made things worse. At the beginning, when you lost power, your lizard brain thought three things: - I need to stop because something is wrong - I need to get off the road - I'm going to do these both at once and in a hurry So your first mistake was not practicing until simple maneuvers became second nature, so you became cognitively overloaded from having to ride the bike and make decisions at the same time with the same parts of your brain. 'It all happened so fast' is a dead giveaway - when I have an emergency, I find that everything goes into slowmo, presumably as my conscious brain zeroes in on the actual problem while the rest of it takes care of riding the bike. Most experienced riders I've talked to report the same thing. You also gave a poo poo about the cars behind you - don't do this, they don't give a poo poo about you, it's not going to kill them to slow down and go around you for a bit or whatever. gently caress em. But ok, that's just learning. Second mistake was not using the front brake. If your engine is dead you're already getting a substantial amount of engine braking, the rear brake isn't going to do jack poo poo to improve the situation or stop you at all, the front is the only one that really matters because it does the lion's share of the work. The fact that the rear brake was your go-to points to some bad habits you probably don't realize you have. Third mistake was pulling over while still braking. It makes no difference what brake you're using, if you try to turn into an uneven gravelly shoulder while braking, you're going to crash. Part and parcel of this is expecting the shoulder to be somewhat clear; never expect that, always assume it's a gravel pit, but ok that's learning again. Fourth mistake was holding the brake when you transitioned to the gravel. At this point your possibly space is extremely narrow, if you teleported me into your body at that moment it's unlikely I could've avoided crashing because the options are so limited. If the engine is dead and you're moving to a loose surface, grab the clutch and use the rear, if you're upright you can just lock it skid to a stop like on a bicycle. Braking 'smoothly' would not have helped you at this stage because smooth or not, you're asking for something that the bike just can't do. So to summarize, the 'right' way to react: 1. gently caress the cars they can wait 2. Slow down to a crawl with both brakes but mostly the front 3. Pull over onto the gravel with the clutch pulled in, brake using the rear when you're basically upright, come to a stop conscious of the looseness and camber that might make you arse over when you put a foot down
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2022 03:09
|
|