[Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

Collapse: The Fall of the Soviet Union by Vladislav Zubok is a good summary of the fall of the USSR. It's written by a member of the soviet intelligentsia so it will appeal to your nontankie sensibilities.

I'd also recommend Blood Lies by Grover Furr for a good summary of the USSR under Stalin.

# ? Jul 7, 2022 21:19

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# ? May 25, 2024 07:16

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

# ? Jul 7, 2022 21:21

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

zubok's collapse is not actually terrible. his history of the entire soviet union is however

# ? Jul 7, 2022 21:27

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

It's not directly about the USSR but I think that Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds is a good introduction to the subject of the USSR especially in literature.

# ? Jul 7, 2022 21:49

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

LionYeti posted:

Ditto one about the rise of Putin thats not free market good, Putin not free market therefore Putin evil.

"Creating Russophobia" by Guy Mettan

# ? Jul 8, 2022 01:46

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Orange Devil posted:

So when does the class of people allowed to vote in a democracy become so restricted that it no longer qualifies as a democracy, in your view?

It depends on the society. To take classical Athens as an example again (wrong thread I know, I'd use America but my American history is weak) not much more than 10% of the population had the right to vote but maybe a third of the population was slaves and another third non-citizens. Now it's generally easier today to get citizenship in a polity than it was then but it's still generally accepted to be ok democratic practice to limit voting to citizens. Slaves not being able to vote seems fairly self explanatory, you're already denying them probably the most basic human right. They are not members of the group. Women and children were generally considered to be unfit to vote. Today we tend to agree with half of that, but maybe in 2000 years some nerd on the galaxy wide web will say you can't really have a democracy if children can't vote.
If, according to the values and knowledge of the society in question, there is a vote based method for representing the will of the people, then it counts imo. I guess democracy is a continuum and while something may not be very democratic it still is democratic.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

# ? Jul 8, 2022 02:14

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

What I've learned here is that democracy isn't real and never has been and is basically a philosophical wanking exercise dreamt up by ancient pedophiles and promoted further by other pedophiles.

# ? Jul 8, 2022 02:23

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Talking about Ancient Greece in the modern history thread. Y'all are getting reported tsk tsk tsk

# ? Jul 8, 2022 02:26

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Talking about Ancient Greece in the modern history thread. Y'all are getting reported tsk tsk tsk

the oligarchy never ended

# ? Jul 8, 2022 02:35

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Weka you are dumb as hell, sorry about your brain.

# ? Jul 8, 2022 09:19

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

Democracy is when everything gets done the way I want.

Everything else is antidemocratic.

# ? Jul 8, 2022 09:36

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Orange Devil posted:

Weka you are dumb as hell, sorry about your brain.

Don't worry, I'm used to it by now, I'm not sure what I'd do if it got too much better.

# ? Jul 8, 2022 09:58

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I wanted to share this excerpt from Douglas Fermer's "Sedan 1870: The Eclipse of France", because it gets into the topic of "accusations of war crimes to inflame public opinion", which previously I was only familiar with WWI as the first modern instance of.

quote:

Isolated groups of Marines continued resistance in Bazeilles, defending houses as long as they could. Second Lieutenant Joseph Gallieni described how, after their commander was wounded, his group held out until artillery fire and flames forced them out. They reluctantly decided to surrender rather than leave their twenty-three wounded to burn to death.�⁷ Similarly, Captain Jean-Baptiste Bourgey with about fifty officers and men barricaded themselves in the modest Bourgerie Tavern at the northern end of the village. They beat off successive attacks for about four hours, inflicting heavy casualties on the Bavarians despite a hail of rifle fire directed at them. From midday, however, the Germans brought up artillery to pound the house, which was now full of acrid smoke and plaster dust. After the pouches of their eighteen casualties had been scoured for any remaining ammunition, the last cartridge was fired by Captain Georges Aubert, whose conduct throughout had been exemplary.�⁸ Present in the house with an injured foot was Vassoigne�s deputy chief of staff, Major Ars�ne Lambert, a Gascon whose storytelling talents would inspire an acquaintance, the artist Alphonse de Neuville, to immortalize this episode in his striking painting The Last Cartridges (1873).

When the survivors emerged from the house under a white flag, a massacre was prevented by a Bavarian officer, Captain Lissignolo, and they were later congratulated on their determined stand by the Bavarian division commander. Gallieni�s group too had been spared by the intervention of an officer. Elsewhere, Second Lieutenant Lavenue was agreeably surprised when a Bavarian officer he had just wounded with his revolver stepped in to prevent him being massacred by his captors. Not all groups were so fortunate. Lieutenant Watrin, Second Lieutenant Chevalier and sixteen men of the 1st Marine Regiment were killed after they had surrendered.�⁹

Reports of German atrocities against civilians appeared in the British and Belgian press. A passionate �cry of indignation� penned by the Duc de Fitz-James, a French descendant of the Stuarts and delegate of the French Red Cross, appeared in the London Times of 15 September. When the Bavarians entered Bazeilles, he charged, there occurred �scenes of unspeakable horror and excess which will forever stain those who committed them. To punish the inhabitants for defending themselves, the Bavarians and Prussians set fire to the village � The inhabitants had taken refuge in their cellars; women, children, all were burned. Of two thousand inhabitants, scarcely three hundred remain, who relate that they saw Bavarians push whole families into the flames and shoot women who tried to escape. I have seen with my own eyes the smoking ruins of this unfortunate village: there remains not a single house standing. An odour of burnt human flesh catches your throat. I have seen the charred remains of inhabitants at their doorsteps.� He accused the Germans of killing for the sake of killing: �you behaved like savages, not soldiers.� Bismarck�s counterblast, communicated to the English press, accused the French government of �systematic lying�, and the people of Bazeilles, including women, of joining in the fighting and of atrocities against �whole batches� of German wounded. Such acts, he asserted, would have �fully excused� the burning of the village, but he denied that this had been intentional.�⁰

In a public letter of June 1871, General von der Tann defended his men, noting that French figures showed that thirty-nine civilians had been killed in Bazeilles and claiming that fires had been started by the artillery of both sides and as a result of close street fighting.�� The German official history stressed that �the inhabitants of the village took an active part in the struggle,� shooting at the Bavarians, sometimes from cellars, and sparing neither the wounded nor stretcher-bearers. Therefore, �the Bavarians found themselves eventually compelled to cut down all inhabitants found with arms in their hands. In consequence of these circumstances the bitterness on both sides rose to extremes in the long stubborn struggle round the village which was already in flames at several points.��

What lay behind these rival versions? Notwithstanding indignant denials by some French writers, local people admitted to a French army chaplain that some civilians did join in firing at Germans.�� The number of civilians fighting undoubtedly was magnified by German fears, fuelled by stories of French �peasants� torturing and killing their wounded.�⁴ In the heat of a ferocious battle in which they were being shot at from all directions and taking heavy losses, it was hardly surprising that German soldiers fired into cellars where they heard movement or French voices. Every man was fighting for his life, and French Marines were launching bayonet charges with cries of �No quarter!� Nevertheless, French testimony is consistent that the Bavarians perpetrated excesses that went beyond the justification of self-defence, and that their disproportionate retribution was rough justice when it was justice at all.

The Mayor of Bazeilles accounted for forty-two civilian deaths directly caused by the fighting. Ten were victims of artillery bombardment on 31 August or 1 September, and died in their homes of asphyxiation, burns or shellfire. These included four children and two women aged 75 and 76. Of the remaining victims, only one was female: Uranie Moreau, aged 54, who died of maltreatment and shock a week after the battle, in which she had seen her husband beaten and threatened with death.

The other thirty-one victims were males aged between 25 and 89. A few may have fallen to random fire, possibly including Baptiste Henry, described as a �poor idiot� who was seen wandering wounded before being killed by a shell. Several bodies were never recovered. Jean-Baptiste Lhuire was seen to have been killed by a sabre-blow as he brought wine from his cellar, but his body was among those consumed by fire. Saint-Jean Jacquet, a wheelwright, was shot as he attempted to flee. Jean Henry, a weaver, may have been killed because he kept ornamental weapons in his house. Monsieur Cuvillier, a deaf Belgian, was among those never found. Others disappeared after being seen as prisoners of the Germans after the battle, and almost certainly were executed.

Several of the bodies found had multiple gunshot or stab wounds or clubbed skulls. Some had their wrists tied, including the one citizen who was fighting as a National Guardsman. The dead included a cooper named Remy, shot three times by a Bavarian officer as he lay ill in bed despite his wife�s pleas, and Lambert Herbulot, a farrier cut down by sabre-blows when Bavarians entered the cellar where he and his wife were sheltering. Like many villagers, Ferdinand Pochet, a gardener, had fled to Belgium during the battle but returned on 2 September thinking it safe. He was among those shot following the battle.

The Germans took at least thirty civilian prisoners, male and female, who suffered threats and brutal treatment as they were marched to the railway station with their hands bound. In detention, Jean-Fran�ois Tavenaux noted that he and other civilians were treated contemptuously by their captors, while French soldiers were shown humanity and even given bread and tobacco. Once tempers had cooled and German officers attempted to establish facts, most of these civilians were released either before or after courts martial.�⁵

As for the burning of Bazeilles, the mayor affirmed that four hundred houses were destroyed, leaving only twenty-three standing on the periphery. In thirty-seven instances fires were started by shells: the rest were deliberately burned.�⁶ In the heat of action houses were torched to smoke out stubborn enemies �like wasps�,�⁷ and flames spread; but soldiers also systematically set fire to houses under orders from officers. French witnesses insisted that this went on long after fighting had ceased, allegations corroborated by a doctor of the Anglo-American Ambulance. Betraying the self-righteous fury of his countrymen against resistance which they considered illegitimate, the German police commissioner of Sedan referred on 29 September to �the sentence executed against [Bazeilles] under the rights of war�.�⁸ Lieutenant Tanera viewed this and the execution of French civilians as inevitable punishment for �fanaticism�, reflecting that �perhaps in the next war French civilians will be more reasonable: they know what awaits them!��⁹

If these grim facts suggest that French claims of a deliberate massacre of women and children were exaggerated by rumour and overstated for propaganda, it is equally clear that the German official history sought to palliate some ugly deeds. What is beyond dispute is that, for soldiers on both sides and French civilians, the inferno of Bazeilles that day was a man-made hell on earth.

you even see the charge of civilians being deliberately trapped into a burning house as a narrative that comes up again and again; with perhaps the most infamous real example being the massacre of the village of Oradour-sur-Glane by the Waffen-SS in 1944 (and then Mel Gibson's "Patriot" making it look like it was British redcoats that did that to American civilians)

# ? Jul 12, 2022 16:30

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

I figured out the perfect analogy for the post WWII American/British relationship: it's like when you're a kid and you're watching someone play video games and they say you don't get a turn because you're both playing together, you're on a team. The Suez Crisis was the UK getting too excited and spilling its cup of juice on the carpet.

# ? Jul 12, 2022 21:05

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

gradenko_2000 posted:

you even see the charge of civilians being deliberately trapped into a burning house as a narrative that comes up again and again; with perhaps the most infamous real example being the massacre of the village of Oradour-sur-Glane by the Waffen-SS in 1944 (and then Mel Gibson's "Patriot" making it look like it was British redcoats that did that to American civilians)

lol i was already searching youtube for that clip before finishing your post

# ? Jul 12, 2022 23:45

MeatwadIsGod: Sep 30, 2004; Foretold by Gyromancy

Mel Gibson is a psychopath but I respect his commitment to portraying the English in the vilest way possible, whether that's redcoats doing Come and See war crimes in The Patriot or Patrick McGoohan chewing the scenery in Braveheart

# ? Jul 13, 2022 13:19

Benagain: Oct 10, 2007; Can you see that I am serious?; Fun Shoe

That entire "imagine if she was white" scene but about imperial atrocities

# ? Jul 13, 2022 14:55

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

MeatwadIsGod posted:

Mel Gibson is a psychopath but I respect his commitment to portraying the English in the vilest way possible, whether that's redcoats doing Come and See war crimes in The Patriot or Patrick McGoohan chewing the scenery in Braveheart

Yeah me too it's literally the best thing about Mel Gibson and English reaction to that scene was the best part of The Patriot

# ? Jul 13, 2022 15:10

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

MeatwadIsGod posted:

Mel Gibson is a psychopath but I respect his commitment to portraying the English in the vilest way possible, whether that's redcoats doing Come and See war crimes in The Patriot or Patrick McGoohan chewing the scenery in Braveheart

I will always respect him for his fervent hatred of the english. jason isaacs being a delightful sneering imperialist too.

# ? Jul 13, 2022 16:00

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Yo it's in vogue to hate Antony Beevor, and I understand why, but I want to say that, at least in Stalingrad, he is not light on the German army. He categorically rejects the idea that the German army did the fighting and others, like the SS, did all the war crimes, which is the absolute underpinning of the "clean Wehrmacht" mythology.

# ? Jul 14, 2022 04:12

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Yo it's in vogue to hate Antony Beevor, and I understand why, but I want to say that, at least in Stalingrad, he is not light on the German army. He categorically rejects the idea that the German army did the fighting and others, like the SS, did all the war crimes, which is the absolute underpinning of the "clean Wehrmacht" mythology.

thanks for reporting. I just did another google images search for Antony Beevor and this is still up lol

# ? Jul 14, 2022 04:16

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Yo it's in vogue to hate Antony Beevor, and I understand why, but I want to say that, at least in Stalingrad, he is not light on the German army. He categorically rejects the idea that the German army did the fighting and others, like the SS, did all the war crimes, which is the absolute underpinning of the "clean Wehrmacht" mythology.

Yes but he does that mealy mouthed liberal both sides thing

# ? Jul 14, 2022 04:29

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

I think it's a thing where all the worst people like Beevor, but if you actually read what he's written he's not charitable to those loving people

# ? Jul 14, 2022 04:47

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

I have his Stalingrad book on my shelf and I learned more about the Holocaust in the east from YouTube. Idk.

# ? Jul 14, 2022 04:50

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

I think it's a thing where all the worst people like Beevor, but if you actually read what he's written he's not charitable to those loving people

I thought his book on the Spanish Civil War was fine.

# ? Jul 14, 2022 04:53

Fortaleza: Feb 21, 2008

Same. I remember liking it even

# ? Jul 14, 2022 05:27

MeatwadIsGod: Sep 30, 2004; Foretold by Gyromancy

gradenko_2000 posted:

I thought his book on the Spanish Civil War was fine.

Same. As popular histories go it's not bad. He at least has the intellectual honesty to admit that the ruling classes in the UK and US were sympathetic to Franco and breached their governments' flimsy non-interference policy to prevent Republican warships from shelling Nationalist ports, supply the Nationalists with oil and vehicles, etc. That said, I doubt I'll read his other books.

# ? Jul 14, 2022 05:36

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

At least in his WWII Nazi books he bends over loving backwards to show that the Nazi system was rotten to the core and that everyone was culpable. There was no bifurcation between "good Germans" and "bad Germans". Everyone had their hands dirty and were deeply implicated. And somehow he's a favorite "Dad historian"?? Makes no sense to me except that probably bad people enjoy his well written narrative elements and just ignore the parts that don't fit into their personal prejudices.

# ? Jul 14, 2022 06:33

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

Slavvy posted:

I have his Stalingrad book on my shelf and I learned more about the Holocaust in the east from YouTube. Idk.

Why would a book focusing on one single urban battle in the Eastern front give you an overview of the Holocaust?

# ? Jul 14, 2022 11:12

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

At least in his WWII Nazi books he bends over loving backwards to show that the Nazi system was rotten to the core and that everyone was culpable. There was no bifurcation between "good Germans" and "bad Germans". Everyone had their hands dirty and were deeply implicated. And somehow he's a favorite "Dad historian"?? Makes no sense to me except that probably bad people enjoy his well written narrative elements and just ignore the parts that don't fit into their personal prejudices.

His books are mixed I think - he does better when focusing on the narrative of a specific event but his latest book on the whole of WWII was pretty bad from what I've heard

# ? Jul 14, 2022 14:18

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

I guess I have only read two or three of his books so I don't have the whole picture. And I think anyone who writes a history of all of WWII is a fool.

# ? Jul 14, 2022 16:49

Mycroft Holmes: Mar 26, 2010; by Azathoth

MikeCrotch posted:

His books are mixed I think - he does better when focusing on the narrative of a specific event but his latest book on the whole of WWII was pretty bad from what I've heard

Really? I actually enjoyed the book.

# ? Jul 14, 2022 18:23

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

https://mobile.twitter.com/owenbroadcast/status/1547942977837731840?t=0Gvz4tRSuETzRJeWJF9qRg&s=19

# ? Jul 15, 2022 22:41

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

i thought the january sixth insurrection was bad but this is implying that it was actually good???

# ? Jul 16, 2022 03:22

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/kwhitaker_/status/1545466652690714624?t=ENSDFo515QEs2-phS4Gu1A&s=19

# ? Jul 16, 2022 05:42

Mycroft Holmes: Mar 26, 2010; by Azathoth

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/kwhitaker_/status/1545466652690714624?t=ENSDFo515QEs2-phS4Gu1A&s=19

# ? Jul 16, 2022 11:37

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

https://twitter.com/psirockomega/status/1545536964937613312?s=21&t=PG1uIqWHY1NRR3B4-5tl7g

lmao

# ? Jul 16, 2022 11:40

Grevling: Dec 18, 2016

Not sure if those guys really know a lot about WII. They probably know a lot more about alternative history scenarios wherein Germany win WWI and Kerensky lives until 1936.

Also I don't know if it's a coincidence or something subconscious going on but I saw that tweet and then later picked up a book about drug use in Nazi Germany.

# ? Jul 16, 2022 11:52