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Looke posted:I can see why a lot of people have just stopped posting in these threads. Why, because people don't agree with you? OK hun. That's a terrible point poorly made. Why do you think merely slowing the acceleration to the bottom is better than getting their quicker? Why is return to feudalism tomorrow better than today? Also it's pretty contemptible to suggest people are doing nothing but posting. Thread regulars routinely go out on protests, do charity work. What are you doing besides from voting for a party that has shown no interest in addressing any of the root causes of this economic catastrophe? forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 10:18
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No Dignity posted:To be honest it doesn't seem like you're engaging with or acknowledging anything that is being said I just think it's unacceptable to allow the Tories to glide into another government but  Jakabite posted:Loads of possible things? There’s a real groundswell of dissatisfaction at the moment, among the young in particular but also generally. I’d suggest the most relevant option would be the TU movement at the moment, but there are plenty of potential routes to real change. None of them easy of course, but all impossible if we legitimise Labour’s stance of ‘the people just hate the Tories but actually quite like neoliberal capitalism’, because that’s what a Labour victory would do. Any if the Tories continue we'll have no left and no unions?
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Jul 15, 2022 10:18
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forkboy84 posted:Why, because people don't agree with you? OK hun. That's a terrible point poorly made. The use of OK hun is pretty demeaning. I've tried to express why I feel voting for Labour is better than just allowing another Tory government
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Jul 15, 2022 10:19
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Bacon Terrorist posted:'Mick Lynch is battering us in these interviews, try Eddie Dempsey instead' Mick Lynch has somehow passed on his fiendish oratory skills to another union rep, how does he do it??
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Jul 15, 2022 10:22
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Looke posted:The use of OK hun is pretty demeaning. I've tried to express why I feel voting for Labour is better than just allowing another Tory government And the other posters (including myself) have tried to express why we feel a Starmerite Labour administration will not be better than another Tory government. We have also offered supporting evidence for our opinions, including the Starmerites' vigorous and systematic purging of the left, and their consistent move to the right in both rhetoric and policy. Perhaps you could engage with our offered supporting evidence and make your arguments against them?
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Jul 15, 2022 10:24
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Looke posted:I just think it's unacceptable to allow the Tories to glide into another government but I am of the view that if Starmerite Labour comes into power, we'll also have no left and no unions. Support for this point of view includes their purging of the left from Parliamentary Labour, their hostility to Unite, and their lack of support for the rail strikers.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:25
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It's always fun watching the media types try and parrot the Daily Mail line at these union lads only for them to casually turn and say "nonce says what?"
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Jul 15, 2022 10:26
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Look at the US at the moment. Biden was undoubtly the "lesser evil" to another 4 years of trump, but Bidens weakness and centerism has lead to very little getting done for most Americans and handing the reigns of power back over to even worst right-wingers in 2 ywars time.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:27
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I’d actually put it to you that the unions, probably the most probably vehicles for real change right now, are weaker for their tethering to Labour, and anything that hastens disaffiliation/the delegitimisation of Labour, is a positive.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:28
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Looke posted:The use of OK hun is pretty demeaning. I've tried to express why I feel voting for Labour is better than just allowing another Tory government It was meant to be, glad it came across as intended. You may have tried to express it but you haven't succeeded so perhaps try again if being OK hun'd bothers you. You have addressed literally no concerns that people have with accepting managed decline but a wee bit slower, as a treat. You attack the thread for "all it can offer is not voting Labour" which a) isn't remotely true and shows you're unwilling to actually engage in non-parliamentary efforts, and b) is funny when all you have offered is "SNP ARE TORY LITE" which is a Clown understanding of Scottish politics, & I say that as someone who has serious issues with the SNP. The SNP are Tory lite in the same way Labour are, but voting Labour in perpetuity to stop the Tories is all you have offered. Labour aren't even willing to support workers striking for small payrises to counter the cost of living crisis. The sooner they stop funding the Labour Party the quicker it dies & we can have a party actually willing to stand up for the poor, both working poor & the unemployed. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 10:28
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Looke posted:Any if the Tories continue we'll have no left and no unions? I think they're dimly aware of that at some level of animal consciousness, or at least aware that it would be bad for business. Is Starmer?
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Jul 15, 2022 10:29
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RandomUserString posted:And the other posters (including myself) have tried to express why we feel a Starmerite Labour administration will not be better than another Tory government. RandomUserString posted:I am of the view that if Starmerite Labour comes into power, we'll also have no left and no unions. Support for this point of view includes their purging of the left from Parliamentary Labour, their hostility to Unite, and their lack of support for the rail strikers. I've consistently said that Labour aren't great and that they rightfully get called out for all the poo poo they do. But there's also a massive leap in logic by assuming that because of this they are in fact on par with the Tories. Labour pledged at the conference to strengthen workers rights - obviously with Captain hindsight going back on a bunch of pledges this week who knows what will happen to that, but I'm willing to reserve judgement till their manifesto comes out. forkboy84 posted:It was meant to be, glad it came across as intended.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:30
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Clearly accelerationism is the only way for things to get better. But I think people are probably bored of this, so I'm more than willing to take the L here
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Jul 15, 2022 10:31
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"Hunter S Thompson posted:
There is no difference between David Cameron and Keir Starmer. We're only going to drift further right, with this lesser of two evils.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:31
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Jakabite posted:I’d actually put it to you that the unions, probably the most probably vehicles for real change right now, are weaker for their tethering to Labour, and anything that hastens disaffiliation/the delegitimisation of Labour, is a positive. Yeah, hence why the RMT openly pointed out they don't affiliate with Labour, and the current leader of Unite of course has withdrawn support from Labour because of Keith being a muppet.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:33
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Looke posted:Clearly accelerationism is the only way for things to get better. Lol that not wanting to vote to endorse neoliberalism of either the blue, red or yellow flavour is now considered accelerationism
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Jul 15, 2022 10:34
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Looke posted:Clearly accelerationism is the only way for things to get better. You could just try to explain voting for Labour in perpetuity and how that will makes things better rather than running away. Vote for Labour if they offer positive change. Don't if they don't. Stop letting them drift ever rightwards on the economy, and the only way we have to influence that is by forcing them to accept that actually left wing votes aren't guaranteed from a lesser of two evils stance. The important thing with the lesser of two evils is that it is still evil Noxville posted:Lol that not wanting to vote to endorse neoliberalism of either the blue, red or yellow flavour is now considered accelerationism Infairness to Locke, it was me bringing up accelerationism.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:34
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JoylessJester posted:There is no difference between David Cameron and Keir Starmer. We're only going to drift further right, with this lesser of two evils. Keith is less shiny.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:35
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forkboy84 posted:a Clown understanding of Scottish politics Tesseraction posted:the current leader of Unite of course has withdrawn support from Labour
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Jul 15, 2022 10:36
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Looke posted:Great, until the Tories further restrict union rights That's why you want to expand and popularise the small-l labour movement, yes, in order to make anti-union laws more difficult to implement and enforce without a damaging public backlash against the government. We have evidence from around the world and across history that unions don't just magically vanish as soon as politicians decide they don't like them. You seem to be operating under the assumption that effective opposition to the government can only come from within the Westminster system, when recent evidence appears to suggest the exact opposite. See also, Marcus Rashford and Mick Lynch being vastly more effective public advocates than Starmer.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:36
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I’ve used “to keep the tories out, if nothing else!” for years as a last-ditch attempt to get people to vote. After 2017 I’d rather eat an entire sackful of horse dicks than repeat that argument, even to myself.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:40
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Actually Labour is going to paint the country red: Oh sorry did I say Labour I meant "the weather". 41 in London according to this prediction 
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Jul 15, 2022 10:40
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Looke posted:I can see why a lot of people have just stopped posting in these threads. The problem is that the objective has become “preventing Tory governments” rather than actually addressing the material needs of people, needs that have become more dire over the last few years. The objective of socialism isn’t to win elections for the sake of it, and even if it was, then “well it’s my turn now” isn’t a vision for the country that people engage in.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:41
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Tesseraction posted:Keith is less shiny. I misread this as less 'lovely' I will concede he is less shiny. Kier does have him beat on redness on his best days.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:44
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The British still think heatwaves are fun — not for much longer https://www.ft.com/content/8262c541-7206-4eef-8cad-65599d524ee2 quote:Last month, while on holiday in Sicily, my partner and I were warned by a local that the weather the following week looked bad. Being British, our instinctive response was to inquire whether there were storms coming, but we were quickly corrected: “It will be 35C. Far too hot,” he told us.  quote:The most obvious consequence is loss of life. During the 1976 heatwave, total deaths in London increased by 30 per cent. The equivalent figure for the UK during the winter 2020-21 Covid wave was 40 per cent. During Europe’s searing summer of 2003, 15,000 French people lost their lives — comparable to the number of deaths in the country’s first Covid wave. Microplastics fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 10:44
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Alcoholism instead of lubricating himself head to toe in order to enter a hippo, sexually. Which is also their main policy difference.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:45
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Jakabite posted:I’d actually put it to you that the unions, probably the most probably vehicles for real change right now, are weaker for their tethering to Labour, and anything that hastens disaffiliation/the delegitimisation of Labour, is a positive. It's not the delegitimisation of Labour that is required, only the Labour right. But the Labour right are in charge now, and that means they represent the whole party. Electing Red Tories does not help the cause or slow the decline - and I'll note here that Starmer has now scrapped his pledge not to privatise the NHS, so the last hair thin gap between him and the fascist cunts we have is gone. So not only does electing the right legitimise them as having succeeded where the left failed, when they do the same things that the Tories would they also share the blame. On the other hand, not electing them discredits the notion that swinging right is a better way and it also leaves all the blame for the poo poo with the Tories. If those things will happen regardless of who leads - and they will - then it is better for left wing politics if Labour are not involved.
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Jul 15, 2022 10:45
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On-topic, and worth a bleak lol: https://twitter.com/cityam/status/1547832309717426176?s=21&t=zRzauBsPfMyQBreTRaO-ZA
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Jul 15, 2022 10:52
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this is bad for joromy crombly
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Jul 15, 2022 10:55
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Darth Walrus posted:On-topic, and worth a bleak lol: RandomUserString posted:Is there any policy position on which Starmerite Labour actually differs from Tory at this point?
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Jul 15, 2022 10:58
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I guess my opinions about the desirability of a Labour government are coloured by the fact that I live in a dystopian part of Surrey where my choices are Lib Dem or waste my vote and let the Tories win But I am of the view that a Starmer government is better than a Tory one, because there’s at least the possibility of some left wing policies getting put to the house, whereas the Tories will only result in a rapid descend into fascism
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Jul 15, 2022 10:58
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RandomUserString posted:It'd be one thing if Labour was lesser in its evil or less poo poo compared to the Tories. Half a crust of bread is better than none, agreed. I think the difference between Labour and the Tories right now is the Grifter vs The True Believer. The Tories know they're lying, some of the Labour people truly believe in austerity.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:01
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The optimal electoral outcome in this situation probably would be a Labour minority government and a Lib Dem party strong enough to successfully extract a PR bill out of them in a confidence and supply arrangement. But this is resting on 1) Labour even doing well enough to be the largest party in parliament and 2) the Lib Dems not immediately throwing out their principles for a chance to have a deputy vice minister for skill trees in government again, so to put it mildly I'm not too hopeful
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Jul 15, 2022 11:03
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extremely funny to see this sponcon on the indy with the incoming heat wave
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Jul 15, 2022 11:06
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I pretty much do support accelerationism at this point. The contrast this week between a country desperate for somebody to do something about the terrible cost of living crisis and a Westminster bubble talking about nothing but who's up or down in the Tory leadership contest and stupid loving culture war nonsense has been giving me real 'Versailles in the 1780's' feelings. It's difficult to look at the current clown show that's UK politics and conclude anything else but that our current system is no longer capable of dealing with, or even acknowledging the mess that we're in. I'm also reflecting that: forget rising living standards; a democracy that can't even provide the most basic security for its citizens in the form of food, housing and energy supplies is not likely to remain a democracy for very long. I don't mean to gang up on Looke at all (whose views I respect), this is just me typing out my own thoughts in response to his posts. I used to be a lesser of two evils guy myself but I feel that we're way beyond that being any sort of solution at this point: continuing to vote for the slightly less poo poo option is actively contributing to our spiralling decline and we have to demand something better. Cheery thoughts for a Friday, I know 
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Jul 15, 2022 11:15
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Labour Friends of Smuggling Edit meant for the other thread on the issue of the Irish border.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:31
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I don't think it's accelerationism per se to abandon Westminster and focus your efforts elsewhere, simply an acknowledgement that Parliament doesn't have (and shouldn't have) a monopoly on meaningful political activity. It's how we create accountability and protect ourselves and our interests when elected politicians go rogue. Honestly, Parliament (or, at least, the dominant culture/ideology within it) has radicalised itself and insulated itself from consequence so hard that I think you can make a stronger argument for electoralism being accelerationism. It's extraparliamentary activism that offers more realistic prospects of damage mitigation and progressive policy. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 11:32
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I have to admit I am worried about how the country will handle the coming heatwave. We're likely looking at a mass death event that the government is incapable and unwilling to do anything to prevent.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:33
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Tesseraction posted:I have to admit I am worried about how the country will handle the coming heatwave. We're likely looking at a mass death event that the government is incapable and unwilling to do anything to prevent. Tbh I’m not expecting any different that our reaction to COVID
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Jul 15, 2022 11:35
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Tesseraction posted:We're likely looking at a mass death event that the government is incapable and unwilling to do anything to prevent. I seriously doubt that the UK government would just sit on its hands and allow tens of thousands of citizens to die because tackling the problem is too hard. This post is pure doomerism.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:35
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