flakeloaf posted:

Good post

Mr. Mercury posted:

What if I just don't want to see Alberta have anything nice/they enjoy?

Is that kosher or...?

Cat Wings posted:

animal rights activist vegans are the most annoying type of vegan because they want to evangelize their beliefs onto everyone else. If all they wanted to do was push for higher standards at slaughterhouses and better practices on farms, then that'd be ok, but they have to go off about how no one should eat meat ever, no matter what, and we should abolish all zoos, and on and on.

apatheticman posted:

Every day we live in a society that reaps untold suffering unto the world.

Militant vegans just picked a lane.

DrBox posted:

I sort of understand your point but I'm not sure how you can make a logical argument for banning one part while condoning the rest.

DrBox posted:

In the end tradition and culture are hard to get past. People are taught from a young age that food animals are different than companion animals and so we have to carry on the way it is.

Zabiha Halal Foods posted:

Good afternoon Mr Loaf,

Thank you for contacting Maple Lodge Farms/Zabiha Halal in regards to the stunning methods that we utilize. In both Halal and non-Halal slaughter, Maple Lodge Farms first makes the birds insensible to pain by stunning them using a Controlled Atmospheric Stunning system, or CAS. In CAS, birds remain in transport containers and are conveyed through an enclosed chamber where they are exposed to increasing amounts of carbon dioxide, which slowly puts them to sleep. Stunning the birds while still in transport containers eliminates stress on the birds caused by the unloading and handling process. Once the birds are stunned, they are then placed unconscious on the processing line where they are slaughtered using an automatic precision blade. In addition, other benefits of the CAS process include an improved work environment for our employees and improved meat quality.

flakeloaf posted:

Choosing not to pick two fights at the same time isn't condoning one, it's just grabbing the other one because I can fit the whole thing in my mouth

flakeloaf posted:

To your edit: I agree that food animals are not the same as companion animals, in that forming attachments and bonds with them is not a great idea emotionally. I still insist that it is absolutely wrong to mistreat an animal, "food animal" or otherwise, by doing the things we see done in the candid videos of slaughterhouses and battery farms - wrestling, beating, kicking, gaffing, boiling alive, and so on. That we need to tell these people NOT to do these things is a giant loving problem, and that the industry refuses to implement meaningful controls to prevent it absolutely is a sign that their right to exist should be called into question.

Yes yes "we have terminated our contract with TortureCorp after the video of their practices was shown on 60 Minutes" is a limbo bar in hell; tell me about the proactive look you chose to take into Definitely Not Cruel Farms Inc. and the 9 people you had keelhauled as a result of what you yourselves saw. Impress me by being proactive instead of needing to be spurred into action by two vegans with boltcutters and a gopro.

I think it should be possible to have a meat industry where these things don't happen, and reading the regs I'm clearly not alone.

Another Bill posted:

I think meat eating should be licensed, and to get the license you should have to slaughter and butcher the kind of animal you want to be allowed to eat at least once.

It's totally unmanageable in reality obviously, but it feels just to me.

e: I should add I came to this position after working with livestock on a farm.

flakeloaf posted:

DrBox posted:

I think it comes down to the argument you're using in the fight you pick. I'm arguing animal exploitation for entertainment whether it's "tastes good" or "fun to watch" is unjustified so I'd look incoherent trying to argue against chuckwagons without taking issue with the rest. That's where the diversity of tactics comes in. I'll argue my side and some single issue animal welfare folks can argue the chuckwagons. Hopefully the combined pressure will do something.

quote:

I appreciate where your coming from although for me a minimally harmful system is still a rights violation to be avoided. Either way unfortunately human nature makes me think we'll never get to a minimal harm system. The issue is systemic. If animals are seen as a product and a means to an end people will continue to mistreat them. If you're in that industry too long kicking or beating a cow out of frustration is as inevitable. They don't view these animals as sentient beings in the moment but just some thing not acting like it should and slowing down your day. No different than hitting your desk in frustration or kicking your car when you get a flat tire. Sure some people are malevolant or sadistic but I would argue these industries create the conditions to push more people into those states of mind. Even under the ideal conditions a slaughterhouse worker must be at risk of mental issues by the very nature of the work.

quote:

I'll just point out the amount of euphemisms and downplaying of the process is something I get really annoyed with. There is plenty of footage to show the gas chamber is not as calm and pleasant as they make it sound. Ever notice that burning sensation you can get up your nose or in your eyes after drinking pop? That's CO2. Dial up that feeling to 11 and that's what the animals are feeling when the oxygen is displaced by CO2 to stun them. (Sorry, put them to sleep).

DrBox posted:

Ever notice that burning sensation you can get up your nose or in your eyes after drinking pop? That's CO2. Dial up that feeling to 11 and that's what the animals are feeling when the oxygen is displaced by CO2 to stun them. (Sorry, put them to sleep).

Another Bill posted:

I think meat eating should be licensed, and to get the license you should have to slaughter and butcher the kind of animal you want to be allowed to eat at least once.

It's totally unmanageable in reality obviously, but it feels just to me.

e: I should add I came to this position after working with livestock on a farm.

Abstract of The Psychological Impact of Slaughterhouse Employment: A Systematic Literature Review posted:

The role of a slaughterhouse worker (SHW) involves the authorized killing of living beings, yet there is limited understanding of the consequences this behavior has on their well-being. The purpose of this systematic review is to collate and evaluate the current literature on the psychological impact of slaughterhouse employment. Fourteen studies met the specific a priori inclusion criteria. The findings from this review were demarcated by the focus of studies: (1) the prevalence of mental health disorders, (2) the types of coping mechanisms used, and (3) the link between slaughterhouse employment and crime perpetration. It was found that SHWs have a higher prevalence rate of mental health issues, in particular depression and anxiety, in addition to violence-supportive attitudes. Furthermore, the workers employ a variety of both adaptive and maladaptive strategies to cope with the workplace environment and associated stressors. Finally, there is some evidence that slaughterhouse work is associated with increased crime levels. The research reviewed has shown a link between slaughterhouse work and antisocial behavior generally and sexual offending specifically. There was no support for such an association with violent crimes, however. Based on existing research, we suggest future directions for research (i.e., applying more methodological rigor) but highlight key findings for practitioners and policymakers that warrant attention.

flakeloaf posted:

The same accusation is also correctly leveled against prison guards and cops, and regulating the poo poo out of those professions to prevent abuses would be fantastic ideas too. "Don't do that" alone is insufficient; the people need concrete reasons not to, and ways to deal with their situation to avoid becoming monsters.

flakeloaf posted:

Yeah, carbon dioxide narcosis is not "sleep". Being unconscious during handling is something I hadn't thought of, and I'd agree that's much better on the birds. They do say CO2 levels are dialed up though, it doesn't sound like the sudden jolt you describe. What I don't understand is why they don't displace oxygen with nitrogen; nitrogen narcosis is painless and looks rather pleasant and i can't make it a clicky link cause this loving website so here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcvkjfG4A_M

e: The first youtube hit on CAS is a PETA video, endorsing the process.

apatheticman posted:

There always has to be weird tidbits like this huh. Like you have decent points but throwing in stuff like this just hijacks the entire thing. Do you have proof that animals are feeling pain because of CO2? Do you have proof that the CO2 actually causes pain like this and that feeling just isn't you know... carbonic acid from C02 being suspended in water?

Quit shooting your own foot with this weird shaming.

DrBox posted:

Why do you consider a statement of the facts to be shaming. The animals are distressed in the gas chamber. Here is a video that shows both electric bath and gas chamber methods.
https://youtu.be/uJXSYMhtwvU

It's a short video. Tell me if you think they are in pain or distressed.
Pigs are much more expressive though so if you find this one inconclusive you can watch this one.
https://youtu.be/-7hAELEBjX4

quote:

"With ongoing physician and staff shortages and growing patient volumes through the pandemic, hospitals across the country including KHSC, have been forced to make difficult decisions," Chief of Staff, Dr. Michael Fitzpatrick said.

“We have exhausted all other options and recognize the inconvenience this will cause for some people in our community. We ask everyone to help us preserve care for those who need it most and only come to the UCC if your health concern is indeed urgent.”

The Urgent Care Centre provides care for cuts needing stitches, sprains, strains, deep bruises, mild to moderate asthma attacks, minor broken bones, insect bites and rashes. It's open seven days a week from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.

The Kingston Health Sciences Centre says the decision to limit the daily number of patients in the Urgent Care Clinic was made, "to ensure the urgent care team can continue to provide the highest-quality of care to each person who walks through the door."

Each day, staff will determine daily how many patients it can safely care for depending on the complexity of conditions needing to be addressed, the number of doctors and nurses available and the status of the Emergency Department at the Kingston General Hospital.

Randalor posted:

Seeing as how we're somehow back onto the "Meat is evil" topic, I have a question primarily for DrBox but other vegans can answer as well.

Let's say that overnight, legislation goes into effect that bans all animal products. Meat, eggs, milk, cheese, you name it. What happens to all the animals on the farms?

Honest question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic here.

Madkal posted:

So in actual Canadian news King has been granted bail.

quote:

He will be required to abide by a number of conditions including leaving the city of Ottawa within 24 hours, residing with a surety in Alberta, and not too contact other organizers of the "Freedom Convoy." He will also have a curfew from 10 pm to 6 am, unless working, and will be required to stay off social media.

flakeloaf posted:

posting on the weed page about canada, and a hospital in Kingston - not a small community - limiting procedures because they have nobody around to do them

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/kingston-health-sciences-centre-capping-patients-at-urgent-care-centre-due-to-staffing-shortage-1.5991880

quote:

Health minister Julie Green had on Wednesday stated the Stanton operating room would be staffed only for emergencies from July 18-22. A day later, the health authority said service reductions would last for months.

From July 25 until September 30, the authority stated in a press release, Stanton will mostly rely on one operating room rather than two, effectively halving capacity for regularly scheduled surgeries.

Randalor posted:

Seeing as how we're somehow back onto the "Meat is evil" topic, I have a question primarily for DrBox but other vegans can answer as well.

Let's say that overnight, legislation goes into effect that bans all animal products. Meat, eggs, milk, cheese, you name it. What happens to all the animals on the farms?

Honest question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic here.

apatheticman posted:

I said proof, not a video anecdote.

You made 2 assertations, 1) the animals feel pain during this process 2) the pain is similar to the feeling you get while drinking pop "dialed up to 11".

To prove this you provided a video of a point in time, zero scientific evidence or even beginning to attempt such.

You are talking to presumably media literate adults not high schoolers.

Study posted:

Stunning of poultry is still not solved satisfactorily. This concerns the requirements of animal welfare, meat quality and working conditions in the lairage, stunning and debleeding area. In an investigation of combined CO2-/O2-stunning in a new gas stunning system stress reactions of the animals during the induction phase and stunning effectivity were recorded in 7,000 chicken and 3.825 turkeys. During the induction phase (here: chicken 41 sek./turkeys 25-65 sec.) the animals first staid calm and then showed beak-opening as a consequence of the breathing stimulating effect of CO2. As a further sign of the aversiveness against CO2 the animals showed head shaking and wing flapping. The used settings of gas concentrations and stunning time in the system investigated lead to a very deep stunning resp. Killing of the animals.

PT6A posted:

So, if we agree that chuckwagons are gone because they're unsafe and stupid (I believe that's a good idea), and steer wrestling and roping are gone because it can (rarely) cause injury to the animal (this I don't agree with, but I understand why people hold that opinion*), can we have rough-stock events and wild pony races and herding-dog competitions, or is it not about the potential of harm to the animal, but about the idea of being entertained by an animal in any context? The animals in those competitions are clearly willing participants (when they are unwilling, they simply will not participate, and there's no way to force them).

And, if that is indeed the line, then can any form of working animal be justified for any reason? What about companion animals, who are still inherently forced to do things they might not be willing to do at a specific time?

DrBox posted:

Depends on the reason they banned it. If it was some environmental reason they would probably kill and process the animals they have left and stop breeding any more and the industry would shut down.

If aliens came down and gave an ultimatum of ban animal products or perish, we would see government subsidies shift from animal agriculture to creating sanctuaries to allow the animals to live out their days while not breeding any more. 20 years later species like dairy cows would be extinct unless a few people keep some around as pets like we do with horses now.

flakeloaf posted:

posting on the weed page about canada, and a hospital in Kingston - not a small community - limiting procedures because they have nobody around to do them

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/kingston-health-sciences-centre-capping-patients-at-urgent-care-centre-due-to-staffing-shortage-1.5991880

DrBox posted:

Oh they are not suffering, they are just thrashing around with joy! Show me a study! Checkmate! If you me to prove subjective experience of pain beyond a shadow of a doubt I can't but you could say the same when I kick a dog and it yelps. We can only infer from their behaviour.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10774072/

Randalor posted:

So best-case scenario you can present is "We mass-slaughter the animals and wipe out several species in one go"? I mean, I was kinda hoping for the "animal sanctuaries" to be your answer, but that would apparently require alien ultimatums? Or "The animals are let loose, most die from being domesricated and unable to adapt to the wild but enough survive that they propagate". After all, there's no money in slaughtering and processing them if the product is illegal.

Randalor posted:

So best-case scenario you can present is "We mass-slaughter the animals and wipe out several species in one go"? I mean, I was kinda hoping for the "animal sanctuaries" to be your answer, but that would apparently require alien ultimatums? Or "The animals are let loose, most die from being domesricated and unable to adapt to the wild but enough survive that they propagate". After all, there's no money in slaughtering and processing them if the product is illegal.

Randalor posted:

Seeing as how we're somehow back onto the "Meat is evil" topic, I have a question primarily for DrBox but other vegans can answer as well.

Let's say that overnight, legislation goes into effect that bans all animal products. Meat, eggs, milk, cheese, you name it. What happens to all the animals on the farms?

Honest question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic here.

DrBox posted:

Can you explain to me the process of breaking a horse? Any guesses as to why they call it that? Do you think they start out wanting to be ridden? We do not allow them agency. They are subjugated and will comply eventually or they are killed.

How about just find something else to do? Plenty of fun to be had without forcing animals to entertain us. Do you have a problem with dancing bears at the circus?

apatheticman posted:

And the rest of that paragraph says they found a better mixture.

Again you aren't talking to babies here.

You are doing the worst kind of proselytizing, moral high ground arguments puts people on the defensive, interjecting grandiose statements with shock videos puts people on the defensive, being combative and smarmy puts people on the defensive.

Who cares how people get to less meat or no meat/less animal suffering/no animal suffering. Take them on that journey, don't be a dick about it.

TheCenturion posted:

Out of curiosity, by this logic, are you also against pet ownership? Honest question.

Randalor posted:

Seeing as how we're somehow back onto the "Meat is evil" topic, I have a question primarily for DrBox but other vegans can answer as well.

Let's say that overnight, legislation goes into effect that bans all animal products. Meat, eggs, milk, cheese, you name it. What happens to all the animals on the farms?

Honest question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic here.

DrBox posted:

Don't treat people like babies but also don't show or talk about the process? I don't think I'm being a dick about it. I'm just not going to sugar coat it either.

The gas chamber is the best of a number of bad methods but it's still bad. There is a reason that nitrogen is recommended over CO2. I just can't fathom how you think they feel nothing in there. We know the effects of the gas.

DaysBefore posted:

Meat could very easily be replaced by giving the lab grown stuff the same subsidies and tax breaks we already give the cattle barons and pig kings and chicken emperors.

I still eat meat, if less than I used to, but I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend that there's a nice happy way to turn a cow and a pig into a Baconater. Nor am I going to deny that it would be better in literally every way to switch to B'conaters (I haven't had a Baconater in ten years, dunno if they're still a thing)

apatheticman posted:

You are providing a highly curated very selective look at the process for your own ethical gains.

Jordan7hm posted:

Health-wise I'm pretty dubious about fake meat. Beyond meat is absolutely better than actual meat from an ethical standpoint, but that's a lot less clear-cut from a nutritional standpoint.

I loving love the old school hippy vegan burgers that are filled with mushrooms and beans though.

Stanley Pain posted:

Counter question. Why would a person who's taking part in the wholesale slaughter of animals year in and year out care about the wellbeing of these animals anyway?