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CommonShore posted:That's what I signed up for. You're not going to convince me that a tercio would just keep walking straight into m60 machine gun fire until all of the soldiers are dead. They definitely would not. If it breaks up a unit of modern troops, it'd break up a unit of non-modern ones. It's not like the era that produced tercios didn't have scouts, skirmishers, marksmen and assassins, there are ways of dealing with even a death spitting demon machine once the initial shock clears.
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Jul 19, 2022 11:55
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Perestroika posted:I still can't get over how they went through that entire nonsense with the internal sown-in shoulder harness and exposed hooks just to hold their fancy waist belts up. yeah, the stuff in the op is great but i'm going to try and dig back to read all of it because it's all so ridiculous.
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Jul 19, 2022 12:18
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VostokProgram posted:You could write a book like 1632 using a town from any developed country and get the same "<X country>, gently caress Yeah" feeling. Sure. Nobody else does, though.
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Jul 19, 2022 20:32
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There's a whole genre in japan, but it mainly sends people one at a time to fantasy worlds instead of a whole town to a specific period of history.
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Jul 19, 2022 21:28
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I'm not even sure the US is the most egregious for "x country gently caress yea" fiction just because the UK has like a 100+ year head start on that kind of scifi. Also I forget the name but there's an insane alt history where South Africa develops super tech and conquers most of the world.
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Jul 19, 2022 22:08
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feedmegin posted:Sure. Nobody else does, though. Russia's got films that sure as poo poo do. Most recent watch was Sobibor from 2018, written, directed, and starring (lmao) Konstantin Khabenskiy, a darling of historical cinema. It takes an event where polish, jewish camp inmates recruited some recently arrived jewish RKKA prisoners into an already-planned uprising, and retells it to be the mighty russian bears awakening the polish sheep, with judaism mostly ignored. This is quintessential embarrassing US filmmaking, except the hero foreigners who inspire everyone are russians using russian cultural tropes instead.
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Jul 19, 2022 22:25
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I mean it's literally the plot of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. The US is one of the few places that still does that, with the others that I can think of being like Russia and North Korea and the like. But historically? That kind of narrative was much more more common. And its weirdo cousin, love letter to other culture and how it's better than yet another culture : looking at you, Winteou books.
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Jul 19, 2022 23:01
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Russia's got films that sure as poo poo do. Most recent watch was Sobibor from 2018, written, directed, and starring (lmao) Konstantin Khabenskiy, a darling of historical cinema. It takes an event where polish, jewish camp inmates recruited some recently arrived jewish RKKA prisoners into an already-planned uprising, and retells it to be the mighty russian bears awakening the polish sheep, with judaism mostly ignored. This is quintessential embarrassing US filmmaking, except the hero foreigners who inspire everyone are russians using russian cultural tropes instead.
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Jul 19, 2022 23:18
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SubG posted:If you'd be interested in an over-the-top Tollywood action epic that also happens to have a lot of over-the-top Indian nationalism there's RRR (2022), literally the most expensive Indian film ever made, and one of its highest grossing. It's a extremely...fanciful...I guess you'd call it biopic about two historical Indian revolutionaries from the 1920s, and is mostly about what shits the British are, but manages to work in plot elements that suggest that, for example, child soldiers are good actually, and that becoming a suicide bomber is a glorious way to fight colonial powers. Ah but is it fair? https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1549370467580084225 My understanding was that the magnanimous Col. Dyer didn't even use the armored car mounted machine guns he had at his disposal at Amritsar. e: whoo boy quote:That is not to say that there is nothing to regret. Almost every conversation about the British Raj sooner or later mentions the Amritsar Massacre in 1919, when a squad mainly of Gurkhas commanded by a British officer opened fire on an illegal demonstration. Several hundred people were killed. Yet this was regarded at the time as a unique and shocking atrocity. Churchill condemned it in parliament. The officer responsible was sacked. But priests of the Golden Temple in Amritsar (the holiest Sikh shrine) thought he had done the right thing, and made him an honorary Sikh. Surprised he didn't say Dyer "did his duty" zoux fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Jul 19, 2022 |
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Jul 19, 2022 23:34
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There's a lot of questionable politics baked into RRR (this is true of virtually all popular cinema everywhere, with regional variations just placing more or less emphasis on different bits) but lol at begrudging the right of anyone, much less India, to hate the British Empire.
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Jul 19, 2022 23:46
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zoux posted:Ah but is it fair? Important to note that the Spectator published an article titled "In defence of the Wehrmacht", in 2018
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Jul 20, 2022 00:25
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I've a question (or a few) that may be entirely too broad brush and alt-history to really provide any substantive answer for, but here goes: Often when the topic is brough up, my dad like to lambast the Maginot Line and the expense involved, in manhours, capital and material for the popular impression that it gave little result in the persecution of the early stages of the war. He contrasts this against US spending and construction projects of the era (large infrastructure megaprojects ala Hoover Dam, Grand Coulee, etc), that later fed the war machine to great effect*. Hydropower allowed for the large aluminum concerns that resulted in skies flocking with American built planes, and so on. *Naturally this kind of ignores the geographical realities that meant the US had no need for massive networks of fortifications. So, my questions to this general viewpoint: -How much did French civil or industrial spending/investment suffer due to the spending on the Maginot Line? -Given a similar scale of expenditure, could the French have invested largely into infrastructure and industry instead of defensive works? -Had they done so, did the French have suitable sites to build such projects (handy river valleys asking to be dammed) or available raw resources to put into these new factories? -Did a population so ravaged by WWI have the manpower to staff such new industrial projects? And finally, would it have made any drat difference or would it have just resulted in that much more production capacity and machine tooling waiting to be looted and co-opted by the Nazi regime?
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Jul 20, 2022 00:26
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Tulip posted:I'm not even sure the US is the most egregious for "x country gently caress yea" fiction just because the UK has like a 100+ year head start on that kind of scifi. I don't remember how sci-fi the racist eugenics gets. It's strange how you never run into "eugenics project as grotesque waste of time that accomplishes nothing," but I suppose it is generally bad fictional form to make the villains just stab themselves in the leg for no god drat reason.
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Jul 20, 2022 00:53
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Having thought about it a little more there isn't any national cinema or literary tradition I can think of that refuses the call to "our country is the best and watch us kick rear end." There are obviously works within those traditions, and non-national traditions, that don't participate, but of the traditions I've spent any time on, they are absolutely awash in ra-rah we're exceptional and incredible and willing to bend historical truths to make it appear so (for me that list would be American, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, and British). *Note obviously that there are plenty of literary and cinema traditions I know jack-all about. I can't name a crazy nationalist piece of Irish literature for example, because I've only read like Joyce and Keats, not random airport novels, whereas with China I've seen hilariously bad 70s propaganda films where China nearly won the Opium War, though if you want more contemporary examples there's always Wolf Warrior and Shaolin Soccer. Nessus posted:I believe these are the Draka books, in which a hyper-racist empire practicing literal slavery into an industrial economy sets out to conquer the world and, obviously, succeeds, because otherwise the books would end. I believe there is some sort of conclusion when the non-Elon Musk states eventually get enough space presence to be able to credibly threaten colony drops, to which the Draka are like "Well, alright, fair enough, I guess we probably can't eugenics ourselves into immunity to asteroids." lol thanks I think the bigger problem with writing a narrative where the eugenics projects is similar to how it operates IRL is that its just not narratively efficient: if something happens on the page it should progress the story, and if the bad guys are doing it then it should be some sort of escalation of threat. That said having thought about it, I'd say that "eugenics as a horrible expensive waste of time" is obliquely part of Handmaid's Tale.
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Jul 20, 2022 01:34
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The only sin RRR has done is to be lazy and just stick lace on khaki tropical service uniforms. And that is wrong and gross.
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Jul 20, 2022 01:54
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Aye sor, these arr some PROPER dainty lads we got ere
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Jul 20, 2022 01:58
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Nessus posted:I believe these are the Draka books, in which a hyper-racist empire practicing literal slavery into an industrial economy sets out to conquer the world and, obviously, succeeds, because otherwise the books would end. I believe there is some sort of conclusion when the non-Elon Musk states eventually get enough space presence to be able to credibly threaten colony drops, to which the Draka are like "Well, alright, fair enough, I guess we probably can't eugenics ourselves into immunity to asteroids." The Draka unleash a super plague, the remaining free people surrender but get to send a ship to Alpha Centauri. The Draka work wormhole tech to try to kill them, and end up timeline jumping. With the implication that they are going to attempt to be a multiversal power. As far as the eugenics programs go...they get very racist. Basically everyone in Africa who isn't Draka is a test subject with various racial castes. With a fair amount of hinting at some hosed up sexual politics too between the shitheads and their slave races. Upon reflection, I have read far too much very lovely and problematic military science fiction. I think I may need to re-read a Vorkosigan Saga book or two to cleanse the palate.
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Jul 20, 2022 02:08
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Xiahou Dun posted:I mean it's literally the plot of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. Yeah I used the present tense for a reason. 19th century Britain hoo boy.
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Jul 20, 2022 02:43
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SubG posted:There's a lot of questionable politics baked into RRR (this is true of virtually all popular cinema everywhere, with regional variations just placing more or less emphasis on different bits) but lol at begrudging the right of anyone, much less India, to hate the British Empire. careful, some posters here might start denying random British genocides again 
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Jul 20, 2022 03:00
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feedmegin posted:Yeah I used the present tense for a reason. 19th century Britain hoo boy. Really we should make a bot that posts “19th century britain hoo boy” every page or so. It’s an evergreen sentiment.
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Jul 20, 2022 03:07
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Tulip posted:Having thought about it a little more there isn't any national cinema or literary tradition I can think of that refuses the call to "our country is the best and watch us kick rear end." Maybe Canada?
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Jul 20, 2022 03:38
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*king_leopold2 has entered the chat*
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Jul 20, 2022 03:43
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Ensign Expendable posted:Maybe Canada? Lots of Canadian literature is a bit critical or at least ambivalent towards "National" experiences in war or colonialism, but the "Canada gently caress Yeah" stuff tends to be towards the pioneer mentality and the brave anglo-scottish protestant settlers taming the completely vacant and unoccupied wilderness. There's a goddamn Canadian long poem about finishing the loving railroad for gently caress's sake.
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Jul 20, 2022 03:46
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Thomamelas posted:The Draka unleash a super plague, the remaining free people surrender but get to send a ship to Alpha Centauri. The Draka work wormhole tech to try to kill them, and end up timeline jumping. With the implication that they are going to attempt to be a multiversal power. The Barrayarans are kinda hosed-up too, but at least the audience-sympathy characters are generally "yes this is true we're doing what we can to fix it."
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Jul 20, 2022 03:53
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Ensign Expendable posted:Maybe Canada? 
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Jul 20, 2022 04:08
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HALTED BY THE BERSERK FIEND ........... HITLER
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Jul 20, 2022 04:57
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Is not wearing a shirt also a part of the national tradition?
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Jul 20, 2022 05:04
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Ensign Expendable posted:Is not wearing a shirt also a part of the national tradition? The options appear to be that or some kind of cape, going by his headshot portrait. If he actually made multiple escapes and got caught by Hitler personally every time, he probably contributed to the war effort just by keeping the Fuhrer busy with prison guard detail instead of, say, running a war.
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Jul 20, 2022 05:09
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Ensign Expendable posted:Is not wearing a shirt also a part of the national tradition? Luring the cold into a false sense of security.
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Jul 20, 2022 05:27
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Arrath posted:Maginot Line I'm not an expert on interwar French economics so can't really give an answer about of any of that stuff, but a really important thing to note about the Maginot Line is that: it worked. Germany did not invade through it. Now of course it can be said that it was short sighted to not anticipate an invasion through Belgium but at the end of the day the Germans had to look at that option because they didn't want to force the forts. It's also important to note that the primary reason for them was reducing manpower requirements for the army as this was one of *the* biggest political hot potatoes in interwar French politics, and it effectively was politically unacceptable to have enough conscripts drafted for long enough to form an army that could effectively defend France without major forts. Finally, in terms of industrial capacity remember that France and Britain were the two most industrialised countries in Europe at the, more so than Germany which had a bigger agricultural population than either. I don't think there was much talk of expanding France's industrial base at the expense of fortifications, though there probably was consternation at the price tag (I can't remember off the top of my head).
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Jul 20, 2022 09:09
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Ensign Expendable posted:Is not wearing a shirt also a part of the national tradition? Actually he's only wearing boots and a belt as was fashionable in the day.
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Jul 20, 2022 09:16
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MikeCrotch posted:I'm not an expert on interwar French economics so can't really give an answer about of any of that stuff, but a really important thing to note about the Maginot Line is that: it worked. Germany did not invade through it. Now of course it can be said that it was short sighted to not anticipate an invasion through Belgium but at the end of the day the Germans had to look at that option because they didn't want to force the forts. The French absolutely anticipated a German invasion through Belgium - the whole rationale of the Maginot Line was to force the Germans to invade through Belgium, so the new war could be fought there rather than on French soil. Once the Germans invaded Belgium, the mobile parts of the French Army and the BEF moved into Belgium, to establish a defensive line along the Dyle river. The problem with this plan was that the main force of the German invasion was coming through the less well-defended gap between these mobile forces and the Maginot Line in the Ardennes. This area was seen as an unlikely target for the Germans because it had few roads on which supplies could flow forward (and indeed, the German logistical tail ended up in a massive traffic jam) and good defensive terrain.
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Jul 20, 2022 09:36
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I'm not saying the artist's fetishes are creeping in here. They are at proud display.
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Jul 20, 2022 09:36
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MikeCrotch posted:
Germany had a more inefficient agricultural sector, but it still had twice the population of France. France had also experienced a sharp decrease in birth rates over the previous 50 years, whereas Germany hadn't, so the difference in working/military-age population was very large.
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Jul 20, 2022 09:48
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Randomcheese3 posted:The problem with this plan was that the main force of the German invasion was coming through the less well-defended gap between these mobile forces and the Maginot Line in the Ardennes. This area was seen as an unlikely target for the Germans because it had few roads on which supplies could flow forward (and indeed, the German logistical tail ended up in a massive traffic jam) and good defensive terrain. The thread had a lot of discussion about Ardennes just a week ago.
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Jul 20, 2022 10:06
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Ensign Expendable posted:Is not wearing a shirt also a part of the national tradition? I hear Canadians don't grow body hair, plaid shirts natually form around them. Red for the Anglos and Celts and blue ones for those in French Canada.
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Jul 20, 2022 12:17
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MikeCrotch posted:Finally, in terms of industrial capacity remember that France and Britain were the two most industrialised countries in Europe at the, more so than Germany which had a bigger agricultural population than either. I don't think there was much talk of expanding France's industrial base at the expense of fortifications, though there probably was consternation at the price tag (I can't remember off the top of my head). about half of french heavy industry was destroyed in the first world war, as it was concentrated in the northeast where the iron and coal was. so the counterfactual "should france have built defenses or invested more in infrastructure like the united states" needs us to consider what the united states would have done assuming that HyperCanada hosed up everything from pittsburgh to chicago
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Jul 20, 2022 14:55
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Tulip posted:Having thought about it a little more there isn't any national cinema or literary tradition I can think of that refuses the call to "our country is the best and watch us kick rear end." I mean given the events of the 20th century, I would bet Germany? Ensign Expendable posted:Maybe Canada? Nahhh. Canada has its superiority complex thing going, to the point where half our reason for being is to say "well we're not as bad as the Americans!" We're only just starting to come to terms with the genocide we attempted. We had a conservative government sponsored initiative to puff ourselves up about the war of 1812 (hilariously it was all Anglo focused, despite the fact that only the French militias really put in a standout performance). And of course there's the whole Vimy thing. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 15:12
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:he whole Vimy thing. Yeah true there's lots of national mythology around Canadian performance in the world wars. Usually it's the story of the "The King and Empire was on the back foot until the tough, stoic Canadian farm boys crossed the sea to carry the day with their workmanlike can-do pioneer attitude." In some case it has more pathos, e.g. the (pre-Confederation) NL regiments in WW1. For a long time, too, we had the whole "World Peacekeepers" thing, but that died with Paul Martin's government.
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Jul 20, 2022 15:59
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:about half of french heavy industry was destroyed in the first world war, as it was concentrated in the northeast where the iron and coal was. yes but did they have sufficient pallets?
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Jul 20, 2022 16:04
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