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Spangly A posted:Their lord and saviour came out and literally said it was better to lose than to win with a leftist platform. They absolutely believed it and spent years sabotaging the most popular politician they'd stumbled across since He Himself, committing fraud and throwing slurs at everyone who disagreed with them while systematically persecuting and expelling Jewish labour members for the crime of making it harder to claim their opponents are all antisemites The jackoff PM who made them stay in the minority for the last 20 years was tony blair but he won and that's actually the only thing you should think about. Tonty Invictus, the Once and Future Prime Minister OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 00:11
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OwlFancier posted:So the party institutionally is full of horrible liberals and corbyn basically ran as one of a little crew of lefties who cobble together enough votes to nominate a lefty each time, but because the party had introduced one man one vote leadership elections under milliband, he absolutely wiped the floor with all of the middle manager candidates after milliband's loss in 2015, and the ticks dug into the hide of the party never got over it and spent his entire term trying to sabotage him to prove that leftism cannot work. To add some colour to this post: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=isr0F3bLA-M Here's one of those ticks being almost giddy with joy at the prospect of a 50-seat Conservative majority in 2017, and then looking confused and upset when the real result was Labour's best performance in 20 years and the elimination of the Tory majority. Just to re-emphasise - this guy is a Labour MP.
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Jul 20, 2022 00:20
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BalloonFish posted:To add some colour to this post: Don't need to click to be able to add that the woman telling him to fix his loving face is his wife, the former pm of denmark
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Jul 20, 2022 00:23
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That nesting took committing to the bit, bravo.
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Jul 20, 2022 00:36
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BalloonFish posted:To add some colour to this post: the tory guy went out and did volunteer work for the first time in 2019, because he lived in consett and really disliked having laura pidcock as his mp (i guess because of the press going after her so much). the morning after the election he was really happy, but it was (i hate to say) a positive happiness, like the mirror image of a lot of people here in 2017 - 'oh my god, we did it, what a great result and i can't believe i played a little part in it, this is amazing!' the labor guy, who had no connection to consett, was even happier, but in a different way - 'great result! thank gently caress we're rid of that rancid little poo poo pidcock, this will make it easier to ensure there's no repeat of corbyn and *we* get *our* party back'
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Jul 20, 2022 00:40
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Yeah. Just rewatching that Kinnock clip made me wonder exactly what moral, intellectual and emotional hoops you have to jump through to be a Labour MP in a South Wales constituency, grinning at the thought of a Conservative government because the wrong sort of leftie is in charge of Labour. I know this thread often discusses whether it's better or worse to vote for a right-wing Labour government over allowing an increasingly insane Tory one. But we're voters. We have that choice. We're not sucking up funding and wearing a red rosette while strolling around a constituency we'd been elected to represent, looking forward to the Other Party getting in so the silly old man who somehow got his hands on the reins can eat poo poo and go away. I don't know if it's immoral, amoral or what. But it really stinks. Especially given all the times over the years that the Labour left (both PLP and voter base) had generally held its nose and got the right into power. It's another aspect of what we see in the response to the Forde Report (and Starmer's proud boast that he can't wait to break his election pledges) - it's OK to lie to lefties, deceive them, cheat democracy to stop them and generally be lovely to and dismissive of them and their views because they're not Normal People. They're outside the scope of acceptable politics so are fair game. You saw this a lot in the Corbyn years too - a rhetorical contrast between 'Labour members/voters' and 'ordinary people'.
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Jul 20, 2022 00:57
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I still really don't understand them either. Like I can form a shape in my head that I think fits but I have never had the sense of sureity about why they're like that. Certainly I think there is a weird... I want to say high tory element to it. Like the paups need someone in charge to do the thinking for them, you can't let them make their own decisions they'd make bad ones, you need to be trained to be a politics understander to understand what politics will help the poor unfortunates. But I can't draw a clear throughline from historical versions of that attitude which are certainly common, to the current, cringing managerial form of it in the labour party. I also haven't ever really observed them phrasing it like that loud and proud, so I don't think they actually conceive of it that way and I don't understand what mental contortions they go through to make what to me seems very clearly to be that attitude in practice, not appear to be that attitude in their own minds. I really feel like I understand the right better, like their way of thinking is hosed and bad but I at least feel comfortable with the model that they channel their raw, atavistic feelings about things into the world through whatever post-hoc justification is convenient and whatever buzzwords they have learned that day, which is why everything they don't like is woke now. But while I think there is an element of that in the center I just cannot understand what sort of actual desire they are operating off. It's so... weak, tepid. What sort of mind is actually motivated to tediously control everything but not to achieve any great insane goal, just apparently for the sake of it? Not to build big stupid edifices that people can look at and be moved by for good or ill, but to construct ever more labyrinthine bureaucracy that people hate interacting with and avoid as much as possible. I am reminded of the auditors from discworld, beings largely devoid of honest desire and motivately only by a compulsion to suck all the vivacity out of the world. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 01:02
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OwlFancier posted:I still really don't understand them either. Like I can form a shape in my head that I think fits but I have never had the sense of sureity about why they're like that. A good post. Re: The bit in bold, I heard someone once describe the Labour right/political centre as a dog chasing the postman. It doesn't know why it does it, it doesn't have any idea what it would do if it ever caught the postman and it gets very annoyed if another dog tried to join in the chase. The point about them being so tepid and not wanting to actually do anything reminds me of the election (I think 2019 GE?) when the SNP unveiled what amounted to a fairly modest but comprehensive platform and every opponent (including ScotLab) turned round and said "you can't just go around promising to make peoples' lives better, that's not Grown Up Politics". That happened (but not so blatantly) to Labour in general under Corbyn too, because so much of the current crop of politicos - especially in the PLP - seem to genuinely have gone into politics for the thrill of sensibly explaining to people why they can't have nice things. Which feeds into your 'the paups can't be trusted to have a hand on the tiller' point. That was also, I think, a key part in the Tory success in 2019 - for the first in a generation or more a Tory manifesto seemed to be explicitly saying "We will intervene and spend to make things better for you". Of course Labour was saying that too, and determining why it didn't get the same traction leads us back to the likes of Stephen Kinnock and the Forde Report.
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Jul 20, 2022 01:34
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I mean that was the appeal of brexit too wasn't it, sure it actually just made everything worse but it was red meat to the people who actually just hate their kids and want the world to be like how they imagine it was in the 50's. It is a positive change, in the sense that it is a thing people have an active desire towards, full throated and visceral. It's just that the people who want it are garbage people and the things they want are garbage, but they do want them wholeheartedly and passionately. Same with a lot of the culture war poo poo. The conservatives ran on a very strong "gently caress you we're doing stuff" platform, exemplified by boris just kicking everyone who wasn't on board with him out of the party. And it was extremely popular with people on the garbage side of the aisle. And still the thing labour wants to do is the same tired triangulation do nothing shite. I just can't imagine living a life with your heart bounded by tepid managerialism.
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Jul 20, 2022 01:40
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OwlFancier posted:I still really don't understand them either. Like I can form a shape in my head that I think fits but I have never had the sense of sureity about why they're like that. I think it's a similar desire to true-blue Dem supporters in the US, often characterised as the urge to "get back to brunch". Politicians who want to do things mean they have to hear about politics all the time, often from people who dislike the status quo that has thus far served them well. It means that instead of processing the world as a series of random events that happen to people who made worse choices than they did, they have to hear politicians talking about the cause and effect of systems, either from a deep-state conspiracy perspective or a critique of capitalism. It means that they have to constantly reckon with the cognitive dissonance between "I'm a good person who deserves what I have" and "I'm a beneficiary of a system that grinds people into dust for profit", and they'd much rather have people in charge who can use the fact that they are in charge to launder that line of thinking for them.
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Jul 20, 2022 03:26
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I perhaps understand that from a supporter perspective but it seems incongruous with people who seek out and take political jobs where they want to administrate those systems. Random centrists on the street I just write off as idiots of one stripe or other, but the actual politicians simply baffle me. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 03:30
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Oh right, I think the politicians are just careerist school prefects. It's easy money, you're guaranteed a cushy follow up job as long as you can avoid any truly egregious unforced errors, and you get to tell people they can't have things because upper management said so without ever having to think about why, and you have a bunch of right wing think tanks coming up with excuses for you in case anyone asks. And unlike, say, a middle manager at a call centre, you get posters with your name on and sometimes people cheer for you or you get lots of retweets of a video of you saying something serious like "I was beaten as a child and it didn't do me any harm" and the job comes with an aura of prestige amongst the people whose opinions you care about.
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Jul 20, 2022 03:47
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Tomberforce posted:*Pokes head in from Australia* Looks at 2016 Brexit results.... you have NO IDEA!!! how late that question is. 
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Jul 20, 2022 06:49
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OwlFancier posted:. And still the thing labour wants to do is the same tired triangulation do nothing shite. Meanwhile the Tories turn the wheel hard to the right and jam their foot down on the accelerator every time they get in.
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Jul 20, 2022 07:13
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I had a really nice sleep last night.
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Jul 20, 2022 07:23
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Tarnop posted:I think it's a similar desire to true-blue Dem supporters in the US, often characterised as the urge to "get back to brunch". E: 'Politics' has been allowed to be turned into this nebulous curseword for taking things too seriously, or being too *sniff* ideological, or not connected to reality, which is part of the great cup-and-ball-trick-for-morons kayfabe that lets Boris et al then disseminate the oversimplified solutions of their ideology as 'just common sense.' Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 07:32
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Tarnop posted:Oh right, I think the politicians are just careerist school prefects. It's easy money, you're guaranteed a cushy follow up job as long as you can avoid any truly egregious unforced errors, and you get to tell people they can't have things because upper management said so without ever having to think about why, and you have a bunch of right wing think tanks coming up with excuses for you in case anyone asks. And unlike, say, a middle manager at a call centre, you get posters with your name on and sometimes people cheer for you or you get lots of retweets of a video of you saying something serious like "I was beaten as a child and it didn't do me any harm" and the job comes with an aura of prestige amongst the people whose opinions you care about. It's this. It's people who got decent grades in school and were told they're very clever and politics is for very clever people so they did that but never considered why in the same way that someone who got a job in marketing never thought too hard about their career path, they just sort of stumbled into it. They don't have any ideological framework beyond "we're clever and smart" which is hwu they get suckered in by neoliberal policies and "compromise" - because they sound clever despite being dogshit stupid.
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Jul 20, 2022 07:37
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https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1549435532660310016?t=Ze8JuRq54P6tQeNFEC0NoQ&s=19 feel like pure poo poo just want him back
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Jul 20, 2022 07:52
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Corbyn Was Right
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Jul 20, 2022 08:05
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Bobby Deluxe posted:https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1549435532660310016?t=Ze8JuRq54P6tQeNFEC0NoQ&s=19 3 years later and I'm still loving furious. How do these bastards live with themselves? Democracy is just a word to them, the rules dont matter, people dont matter, the loving planet doesn't matter. Nihilism as policy, spite as the goal.
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Jul 20, 2022 08:08
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Lol *two days later* 
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Jul 20, 2022 08:28
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It's fun to imagine those being photos of the same place, and the beach literally just setting on fire.
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Jul 20, 2022 08:47
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Just to chime in that are you really surprised a Kinnock's goal was to see the Tories reelected? It's all their family does.
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Jul 20, 2022 08:57
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From Jezza's statement on FB:quote:Most of all, the Party needs to decide what it is for and who decides that. Are we a democratic socialist party, run by members and affiliated unions, that aims for a fundamental transfer of wealth and power from the few to the many? Or are we something else? With the unions no longer funding Labour, it seems like radical change is needed in the party, or the creation of something new entirely. It feels like the party has been stolen from the left. Is there any way to get it back?
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Jul 20, 2022 09:09
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I think to the labour right, politics is a game, the tories are their legitimate opponents and the left are trying to flip the table. So to them, it's perfectly natural to be friends with tories, and to team up with them against the left if the ability to play the game is threatened.
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Jul 20, 2022 09:10
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https://twitter.com/fayemckeever/status/1549366104899870720?s=12&t=4opvHiEFajvZv135hNSWMg
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Jul 20, 2022 09:18
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No Dignity posted:Bin guy is, somehow, right The bin was laden.
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Jul 20, 2022 09:34
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Jippa posted:I had a really nice sleep last night. I didn't  piano chimp posted:From Jezza's statement on FB: Not really, no
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Jul 20, 2022 09:44
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I just live in hope that this groundswell of union action and support we've seen recently will ignite something in people, encourage all the unions to disaffiliate from Labour, and create a new party which stands for exactly what Corbyn outlined in that quote. It's not too outlandish a dream, I think. The country is literally on fire, and everyone's getting poorer, and only the most brain wormed weirdos have any respect or admiration for what Keith's Labour represents.
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Jul 20, 2022 09:52
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Public sector pay rises are both slightly better than expected and still quite poo poo, especially as a nurse
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Jul 20, 2022 09:56
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McFlurry Fan #1 posted:Public sector pay rises are both slightly better than expected and still quite poo poo, especially as a nurse And below inflation!
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Jul 20, 2022 10:00
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McFlurry Fan #1 posted:Public sector pay rises are both slightly better than expected and still quite poo poo, especially as a nurse They are below inflation, that means they are paycuts
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Jul 20, 2022 10:04
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Microplastics posted:Daily Express-Your Dog's-Anal-Glands stuff Wow, the temperature hit 198.4°C! On a completely different note: how on earth is an extremely-lovely daily newspaper priced at ONE POUND TEN PENCE? What possible value for money could there be here for the buyer/reader? The publishers are presumably taking a loss on the cover price and it doesn't represent the cost in any direction - they make their money from ads, embezzlement and tax-dodging - so why make it £1.10 instead of 45p, £5 or free? (This is a rhetorical question, you're not supposed to answer this bit, see later.) I'm not going for the oh-aren't-prices-high-these-days just-read-the-news-on-your-phone-on-the-train newspapers-are-dead-grandad here, I'm analogue, I love a paper, that's fine, I'm just astonished anyone would pay it. So TLDR: what "sort of guy" buys the rip-roarin' Express, and thinks it's worth £1.10?
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Jul 20, 2022 10:05
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Only Kindness posted:Wow, the temperature hit 198.4°C! Your granny buys the Express
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Jul 20, 2022 10:08
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Only Kindness posted:what "sort of guy" buys the rip-roarin' Express, and thinks it's worth £1.10? *hovis music plays* when I were a lad doing paper round, there was an old guy who'd be knocking on the glass door at 5:01 in the morning while we were marking up the papers for delivery. Even though the shop was closed he'd demand to come in and buy his daily shitbag paper and a 1pint of milk. Every single day. In the unlikely event he's not dead by this point he's probably still doing it. I guess that's the target market.
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Jul 20, 2022 10:15
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Only Kindness posted:Wow, the temperature hit 198.4°C! They do turn a profit they just do it from a combination of ad revenue and the purchase price; lowering the latter (theoretically) increases the readership and therefore increases the ad revenue but it's a balancing act. It's further complicated by multiple titles being owned by the same firm, the most famous example being the highly profitable AutoTrader (formerly) funding the perpetually loss-making Guardian.
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Jul 20, 2022 10:19
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There have been numerous studies that show if something is free people tend to be suspicious of it or not respect it as much. Even a token price massively increases how people regard it, and the pensioner / boomer crowd still think of a pound coin as representing the value most of us would atrribute to a fiver.
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Jul 20, 2022 10:33
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Microplastics posted:Lol 
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Jul 20, 2022 10:34
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The labour right are just playing the same game better, the Labour left are just a lot worse at sabotage when out of power and purging while in power. If I was a lefty Labour MP I'd be trying to stop Starmer too
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Jul 20, 2022 10:35
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I am actually supportive of this, I think Sweary Keith would be hilarious as an arc for him. https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1549678179736068097?t=Bu9ReuMdCnuKbBZ92NQSeA&s=19
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Jul 20, 2022 10:48
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