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TOOT BOOT posted:'We as as a religious order don't want to take any responsibility for the vulnerable' My apologies, what do you mean by this?
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Jul 21, 2022 03:06
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Thirteen Orphans posted:So how one joins a religious order/community is slightly different for each community, but they are FAR more rigorous in admitting candidates than you thought. I'll give a summary, then tell a bit of my story (sorry old timers who know it all already) to put it all into context. Firstly, the reason mental illness can be a reason to reject a candidate is because when you join a religious community it's akin to joining a family. If you have a mental illness that's untreated or poorly managed, you could have trouble living in community. But back to how one joins. Usually the prospective candidate starts in prayer and introspection to help guide where they want to go. Do they have a monastic heart? If they are a man do they feel called to the priesthood? Often people have a spiritual director to help discern this as well. Once this preliminary work has been worked on the prospective candidate will start researching different orders/communities. If they see one they like, they may reach out to the vocations director. From there, depending on the type of community, they may have a number of meetings with the vocations director, some visits to their monastery or community house, and if everyone gets the sense there may be a "vocation" (from the Latin word for "call") they may apply to the community. If they got this far, the next step is collecting letters of recommendation, having a medical exam done, being interviewed by members of the community, and having a massive battery of psychological tests done. That's pretty average. Who decides to accept is different for each community, some have a council, others one guy. This is very illuminating. I'm going to marinate on it a bit and may have additional questions later. The overlap all of these organizations have with the (new and improved) process of accession to the priesthood was new to me. TOOT BOOT posted:I mean, I kinda get it in a way, but 'We as as a religious order don't want to take any responsibility for the vulnerable' is a somewhat alarming position for them to take I would assume the classical Catholic answer here is "we have other ways to take you under the wing" but I agree that a nominally all-encompassing worldwide religious organization should have a way for just about anyone to pursue dedicated religious life. A specific religious order doesn't have the same nominal responsibility I think. e: oops Ohtori Akio fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 05:19
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TOOT BOOT posted:I mean, I kinda get it in a way, but 'We as as a religious order don't want to take any responsibility for the vulnerable' is a somewhat alarming position for them to take
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Jul 21, 2022 05:35
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Thirteen Orphans posted:My apologies, what do you mean by this? It just doesn't seem like having someone with bipolar is likely to be some huge burden since dealing with suffering is kinda in the wheelhouse of religion. If it came off as a slight I apologize, it wasn't meant that way.
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Jul 21, 2022 07:31
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There is something uncomfortable with the selection process of religious orders for me, too. Yes, institutions seek to survive and grow by selecting the best from its pool of potential members, but when that organization also carries the message of Christ, where the one who cannot build cathedrals or balance books is not less precious than the one who can, there's something that doesn't quite sit right with me in seeing how the selection process elevates some and disqualifies others. I can see that it is not appropriate to give someone responsibilities beyond their ability, but I am not quite blown away by the compassion shown for "the stones the builders have rejected" in these stories of selection. Especially since in the Catholic Church, we are still dealing with the ill-effects of clericalism, as Pope Francis repeatedly points out. Being selected for a religious order, especially one perceived as especially elite, is still seen as receiving a position of prestige and power, even (or arguably driven) by the laity. If it was just about service, then anyone can serve in the capacity to which they are able, and this would be most pleasing to the Christ and should be celebrated triumphantly by the Christ's church.
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Jul 21, 2022 08:54
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Are there orders that are set up to accept people with various disabilities? Be they mental or physical? Seems wrong to turn away someone with a strong calling because the person is deaf or suffers from depression. Surely there are many tasks to be done and while not everyone is suited to every task there should be a task for everyone to perform. As long as the candidate is willing to accept her limitations?
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Jul 21, 2022 14:25
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BattyKiara posted:Are there orders that are set up to accept people with various disabilities? Be they mental or physical? Seems wrong to turn away someone with a strong calling because the person is deaf or suffers from depression. Surely there are many tasks to be done and while not everyone is suited to every task there should be a task for everyone to perform. As long as the candidate is willing to accept her limitations? The Little Sisters Disciples of the Lamb in France are mostly women with Down's Syndrome. 
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Jul 21, 2022 14:51
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this is a bit of a stretch i know but does anyone in here have connections with the Jain community in the SF Bay area, particularly the south bay?
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Jul 21, 2022 17:49
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Walk around South Bay loudly proclaiming that karmic value is primarily determined by intention; they’ll find you
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Jul 21, 2022 18:41
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Caufman posted:There is something uncomfortable with the selection process of religious orders for me, too. Yes, institutions seek to survive and grow by selecting the best from its pool of potential members, but when that organization also carries the message of Christ, where the one who cannot build cathedrals or balance books is not less precious than the one who can, there's something that doesn't quite sit right with me in seeing how the selection process elevates some and disqualifies others. I think we have seen pretty clearly over the last decades that flawed messengers can do more to damage people's relationship with Christ than competent messengers can repair.
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Jul 22, 2022 00:47
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Well some communities serve others in the world and other communities are just separate communities. They’re going to have differing criteria for admission.
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Jul 22, 2022 07:13
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BattyKiara posted:Are there orders that are set up to accept people with various disabilities? Be they mental or physical? Seems wrong to turn away someone with a strong calling because the person is deaf or suffers from depression. Surely there are many tasks to be done and while not everyone is suited to every task there should be a task for everyone to perform. As long as the candidate is willing to accept her limitations? One of my Mother's grand-cousins or something like that was/is deaf and was in the Benediktinerkloster Engelberg. (was/is cause I have no idea if he's still alive). I think he was also restricted by his vow from talking to outsiders or something (the one time I visited he had to get an OK from the prior or so).
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Jul 22, 2022 14:15
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ulmont posted:I think we have seen pretty clearly over the last decades that flawed messengers can do more to damage people's relationship with Christ than competent messengers can repair. Should fear of doing wrong lead to excluding people who want to help but have problems they can't control and are not fault of their own?
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Jul 22, 2022 18:28
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I really fail to see the issue with being entirely upfront with "While your condition is currently well controlled, it may not always be, and we are not equipped to help in those circumstances." Yeah, it sucks. But not every organization is going to have the knowledge or resources to help someone in a mental or physical health crisis.
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Jul 22, 2022 19:03
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While I don't think people with disabilities in religious communities is gonna be a major flaw in outreach (that would have more to do with the cosy relationship between bigots using Christianity as their cloak plus their facilitation in the public space),Cythereal posted:Should fear of doing wrong lead to excluding people who want to help but have problems they can't control and are not fault of their own? Namely: Are charitable works primarily for the benefit of the giver or the recipient?
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Jul 22, 2022 19:11
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Cythereal posted:Should fear of doing wrong lead to excluding people who want to help but have problems they can't control and are not fault of their own? Absolutely. I think you might agree that the Catholic Church might not want to accept as a candidate for priesthood someone struggling with pedophilic compulsions, for example, and after that the “exclude or not exclude” is just a line-drawing exercise.
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Jul 22, 2022 19:22
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Here is the thing. Monasteries and convents are often very small communities. It is reasonable to ask, "Can forty people, some/many of whom are already old, care for their existing members while also taking on a member who may (emphasis may) be too ill to help care for the rest of the community?" Communities have different charisms (roughly spiritual goals/gifts). A community that is already focused on social service is going (one hopes) to have different criteria than a community that is focused on "fast* all the time, study all the time, speak to (almost) nobody." This isn't my religion or my goal in life, but I do/did a lot of reading about convents/monasteries/orders. Thirteen Orphans, I'll be praying for you. * Fasting doesn't necessarily mean "not eating". In a Catholic/Orthodox sense, it often means "keep a restrained diet in quantity and/or quality." For example, no meat, butter, eggs ever, or only one meal a day, or some combination of the above.
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Jul 22, 2022 19:35
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Two more points: 1) The Jesuit ideal of "availability" doesn't mean "willing to do whatever I can for my brothers", it means "If the Superior General wants me to go to the Bahamas, I'll go to the Bahamas. If he wants me to go to Bahrain, I'll go to Bahrain." Ongoing psychiatric treatment becomes problematic under those circumstances; so would, for example, rheumatoid arthritis. 2) Most religious take a vow of poverty, which means their order pays all their bills. Even with excellent insurance, mental health care in the US can be expensive - and orders that live in community may not be interested in having someone use the monastery's car every $unit_of_time to go to an appointment. BattyKiara posted:Seems wrong to turn away someone with a strong calling because the person is deaf or suffers from depression. The whole point of discernment - and discerning with a community - is that what I perceive as my calling might not be my calling. For example, if I thought I were called to the priesthood, it doesn't matter how certain I was of the call or how strongly I felt the call, because I cannot be ordained a priest; I'm a woman. I couldn't be a Redemptorist priest for the same reason, but there's no canon-law reason why I couldn't be a vowed sister, except the Redemptorists don't take women. If I were called to cloistered life, there might not be any existing group of sisters that I fit in well with; maybe the call meant I was supposed to found my own order, or supposed to be an anchoress.
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Jul 22, 2022 19:56
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I think I should clear something up, since I went and made it personal. I don’t think anybody was wrong to reject me (anymore), it just royally sucks and I hope there’s a community for me.
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Jul 22, 2022 21:06
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Arsenic Lupin posted:a community that is focused on "fast* all the time Instructions unclear, ended up postulated to the Order of St. Sonic. 
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Jul 22, 2022 21:17
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Hey, for you Catholics in the thread: How does Pope Francis deal with "obedience to the Pope"?
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Jul 22, 2022 21:49
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Hey, for you Catholics in the thread: How does Pope Francis deal with "obedience to the Pope"? This question came up when I was at the monastery. When a religious priest is raised to a Bishop he is relieved of his religious vows because he can no longer be obedient to the leader of his order among other things. So the obedience to the Pope is moot. Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jul 22, 2022 |
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Jul 22, 2022 22:04
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I think I should clear something up, since I went and made it personal. I don’t think anybody was wrong to reject me (anymore), it just royally sucks and I hope there’s a community for me. I'm happy that you don't feel wronged anymore by their decision, and I pray sincerely you find the community you seek. I'll say that in my experience working with different rabbis this past year and getting the chance to hear them teach, and some of these rabbis are men and some are women, some are cis and some are trans, and some have spoken openly about mental health struggles, that it is an asset to the collection of available spiritual teachings to have a diversity of experiences from which to draw, and it is a liability to most any institution if its membership is too similar in perspective, experience, ability, and sensitivity.
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Jul 22, 2022 22:34
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I think I should clear something up, since I went and made it personal. I don’t think anybody was wrong to reject me (anymore), it just royally sucks and I hope there’s a community for me. I feel a little embarrassed that my inquiries about your personal journey could be seen as questioning or doubting the validity of your trust in those institutions. I hope you find or form the right crew for you, deeply and truly. If you're open to suggestions, the Catholics could really use an order of empty-hand reclusive warrior monks IMO. Give it some thought.
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Jul 22, 2022 23:33
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It would seem easy for Francis to obey the commands of the Pope. After all, he sees him regularly - I believe they correspond.
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Jul 22, 2022 23:42
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Nessus posted:It would seem easy for Francis to obey the commands of the Pope. After all, he sees him regularly - I believe they correspond. this post made by the benedict #sixteen loyalist society
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Jul 22, 2022 23:44
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Ohtori Akio posted:If you're open to suggestions, the Catholics could really use an order of empty-hand reclusive warrior monks IMO. Give it some thought. This is a true story: My father, 8th dahn Hapkido at the time of his death, was not at all religious and not super happy about me thinking about religious life. He very seriously asked me to consider making my own religious order based around training Hapkido, specifically saying it could be the “Catholic Shaolin.”
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Jul 22, 2022 23:52
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Thirteen Orphans posted:This is a true story: My father, 8th dahn Hapkido at the time of his death, was not at all religious and not super happy about me thinking about religious life. He very seriously asked me to consider making my own religious order based around training Hapkido, specifically saying it could be the “Catholic Shaolin.” always listen to sensei (dunno equivalent word for a korean art). he was right OT: I am a very secular and non-nicene christian, think a tolstoyan anti-mystical conversion experience, but calling everyone brother, sister, etc is one of my favorite elements of christian (and other) practical tradition. it applies to everyone imo
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Jul 23, 2022 00:05
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Thirteen Orphans posted:This is a true story: My father, 8th dahn Hapkido at the time of his death, was not at all religious and not super happy about me thinking about religious life. He very seriously asked me to consider making my own religious order based around training Hapkido, specifically saying it could be the “Catholic Shaolin.” Speaking of xiaolin. Have you considered taking inspiration from bodhidharma and simply waiting outside the monastery for ten years until they see you’re serious about the holy life? Or if times a factor possibly just cutting off your own arm?
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Jul 23, 2022 00:21
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Thirteen Orphans posted:My father, 8th dahn Hapkido You ever meet Grandmaster Jung Hwan Park?
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Jul 23, 2022 00:31
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Bar Ran Dun posted:You ever meet Grandmaster Jung Hwan Park? Never had the pleasure. I’m not sure where he is in Dad’s lineage, though. A lot of records, oral and written, got lost after our GM Park passed and Dad got really sick and died soon after.
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Jul 23, 2022 01:39
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Never had the pleasure. I’m not sure where he is in Dad’s lineage, though. A lot of records, oral and written, got lost after our GM Park passed and Dad got really sick and died soon after. I think J.Park is still alive down in FL and they might have some of that stuff. But the person I primarily trained under in high school died about a decade ago, so I don’t know.
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Jul 23, 2022 02:05
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ulmont posted:I think we have seen pretty clearly over the last decades that flawed messengers can do more to damage people's relationship with Christ than competent messengers can repair. That is the best summary of being raised Catholic I have seen in a long while.
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Jul 23, 2022 02:23
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Raises the question of who the flawed, or competent, messengers are though, because there's a good deal of shouting and finger-pointing. Even if the pastor is dumping the collection plate into a white bag marked $$$ and running out the back door, someone will probably defend him.
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Jul 23, 2022 02:33
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Thirteen Orphans posted:This is a true story: My father, 8th dahn Hapkido at the time of his death, was not at all religious and not super happy about me thinking about religious life. He very seriously asked me to consider making my own religious order based around training Hapkido, specifically saying it could be the “Catholic Shaolin.”
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Jul 23, 2022 02:39
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Thread poll. Are aliens real?
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Jul 23, 2022 03:20
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i believe it's pretty likely that life exists other places than earth. but as for whether any of that extraterrestrial life has ever visited or interacted with earth, i'd consider that a "possibly" but haven't really seen any evidence of it.
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Jul 23, 2022 03:23
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Gaius Marius posted:Thread poll. Are aliens real? I hope there are other sentient lives out there, and I hope they and us both understand selfless love by the time we ever make contact. I think it is pretty likely though yeah, even if we never detect them.
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Jul 23, 2022 03:28
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probably
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Jul 23, 2022 03:29
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Gaius Marius posted:Thread poll. Are aliens real? There's no evidence of it of them. It's not really a matter for faith IMO. Either they're there or they're not, and if they are we'll find them in due time. I'd like there to be extraterrestrial life out there, but it's not reasonable to say they're real at this point.
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Jul 23, 2022 03:34
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