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RC Cola posted:I did the deed for you Oh thank you. Okay, so "...thirteen most powerful leaders of the Forsaken..." at least implies that, of the leaders of the Forsaken, they're the most powerful. Which would say to me that they're the most powerful. Though, I mean, it's not like this is the Bible or something.
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Jul 22, 2022 22:36
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I don't know where it's actually stated, but the Wikia also says that Ishamael was the Captain-General of the Shadow during much of the War of Power. Which indicates he at least was fairly well regarded all along.
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Jul 22, 2022 22:39
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tsob posted:I don't know where it's actually stated, but the Wikia also says that Ishamael was the Captain-General of the Shadow during much of the War of Power. Which indicates he at least was fairly well regarded all along. Well regarded doesn't mean competent though.
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Jul 22, 2022 22:44
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It is frequently mentioned that Sammael, Demandred, and Rahvin were skilled field generals. And Ishamael at least was as powerful as Lews Therin. And Rahvin a hair less. Edit: Also we get that Moridin PoV chapter where he internalizes about Sha'rah aka the game far more complex than stones that he is a master of. So he's competent at planning. Heck Be'lal is regarded as an expect trap setter. Moghedien is known to be good at secret shadow plots. The forsaken that we see are hyper competent and tend to die because Rand is The Dragon Reborn and literally can't die before the last battle. See the multiple times he was almost assassinated with a crossbow bolt that he didn't see that random chance altered to save him. Rahvin had Rand dead until Nynaeve showed up and they just happened to be in the world of dreams at the same time. RC Cola fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jul 22, 2022 |
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Jul 22, 2022 22:47
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CainFortea posted:Well regarded doesn't mean competent though. It's not synonymous no, but it certainly implies it; especially in an organization as cut-throat as The Chosen/Forsaken and Dark Ones forces as a whole. If he was incompetent, he'd probably have been replaced pretty quickly. You said you just see it as a fun head canon not meant to be taken seriously and don't want to die on the hill defending this, but you seem to take any chance to poke holes in any thing that might refute the idea regardless. tsob fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jul 22, 2022 |
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Jul 22, 2022 22:48
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I do agree that maybe there are other far more competent forsaken that were killed by the forces of the light before this, or betrayed by other forsaken. If the 13 best forsaken died before the bore was sealed up, the next best 13 forsaken would be the 13 best forsaken right?
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Jul 22, 2022 22:52
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RC Cola posted:I did the deed for you I feel like being a villain in a world like WoT that is basically run by a giant computer would be very frustrating, were you to stop and really think on it. If you're alive and doing things, you're within the Pattern and thus beholden to its systems (and therefore probably ultimately helping out the good guys even if it doesn't look like it at the time).
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Jul 22, 2022 23:27
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I mean, that is ultimately their motivation since The Dark One wants to break the Pattern and remake it in his image. That bar maiden that trapped Rand and Mat in the first season of the show even talks about how the Pattern is kind of constricting and lovely because of things like that. Ishamael also was a philosopher originally, and turned because he thought the Shadow's win inevitable, since all it takes is one win for it to break it while the Light has to continually defend the Pattern for eternity, along with musing on how he and Rand are trapped in that endless cycle and he just wants to die and be broken of the cycle etc.
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Jul 22, 2022 23:35
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tsob posted:It's not synonymous no, but it certainly implies it; especially in an organization as cut-throat as The Chosen/Forsaken and Dark Ones forces as a whole. If he was incompetent, he'd probably have been replaced pretty quickly. You said you just see it as a fun head canon not meant to be taken seriously and don't want to die on the hill defending this, but you seem to take any chance to poke holes in any thing that might refute the idea regardless. Competence in politicking your own side to get picked for grand marshal actually doesn't translate to effectiveness in a war. There's lots of examples in our own history, as well as current events. As a trope this is even more true for the "bad guys" in fantasy settings, since they're so busy worrying about their supposed allies instead of what the enemy is doing.
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Jul 22, 2022 23:47
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CainFortea posted:Competence in politicking your own side to get picked for grand marshal actually doesn't translate to effectiveness in a war. Ishamael wasn't a frontline leader though, and his role in the War of Power was similar to his role in the current times by the sounds of the stuff on the Wikia; he was in charge, but his leadership was more strategic, rather than directly commanding troops or anything. And, from the sounds of it, the Shadow was winning, having taken a lot of cities and territory and pushing the forces of the Light to desperate action because a lot of the population was pushing for a sue for peace with the forces of the Shadow, the cities the Light did control were running low on resources and the Aes Sedai were fracturing along gender lines because of the differences in plans that Lews Therin and Latra Posae Decume were proposing for how to deal with the shadow. Ishamael in the current times isn't really incompetent either, at least once his madness is subsumed by being recycled into a new body as Moridin. He seems to have been a decent leader who carried out his bosses desires/plans as well as is really possible given how constrained he was by The Dark One's refusal to let Rand die, among other things. The bigger issue was that a lot of his subordinates were so selfish in action, and would ignore his orders on their own whim if they saw a gain for themselves, and all of them wanted to supplant him as Nae'blis. He corralled several of them using mind traps, pushed the rest to work together or keep in line with The Dark One's plans and so on, as well as taking direct action under guise on the field to push that agenda as and when necessary because others wouldn't or couldn't. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jul 23, 2022 |
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Jul 22, 2022 23:53
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People always forget that there were several dozen Forsaken outside the bore when it was sealed, who continued to gently caress poo poo up through the time of madness. I'm sure it didn't help that the males went crazy.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:20
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bio347 posted:You can just feel the wink and nudge here, can't you? The Pattern needed these guys around to shape the Dragon Reborn some three thousand years later, and so they just so happened to be in the right place at the right time to enable that to be possible. So weird! Yeah, every once in a while I can sympathize with Ishamael, who just wants to burn the whole thing down, because he’s tired of it all. He’s my favorite character in the series. He’s fascinating, because he sees the big picture, and has decided, “Oh gently caress that.”
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Jul 23, 2022 00:31
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I always took forsaken to be the equivalent of black ajah. Aka darkfriend channelers.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:31
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RC Cola posted:I always took forsaken to be the equivalent of black ajah. Aka darkfriend channelers. I mean, that is basically what they were; the original dreadlords. The ones who followed after the Breaking were just afraid to use the title of Chosen/Forsaken, because they didn't want to hold themselves in the same rank as the fabled channelers of the Age of Legends; especially if the Chosen returned while they were alive, and saw that such lessers were comparing themselves to them.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:40
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thrawn527 posted:Yeah, every once in a while I can sympathize with Ishamael, who just wants to burn the whole thing down, because he’s tired of it all. Yea but he's tired of the concept. He himself has not experienced any of that. He's just a philosophy professor who took himself so seriously he put himself into ennui.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:49
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CainFortea posted:Yea but he's tired of the concept. He himself has not experienced any of that. He's just a philosophy professor who took himself so seriously he put himself into ennui. He kind of has, because he (a) knows that he's lived countless lives going through roughly the same cycle, (b) wasn't entirely sealed like the other 12 Forsaken, and so lived several life times outside the Bore during the last 3,000 years and (c) was recycled by The Dark One into a new body where he has his old memories despite being, ostensibly, a new person. Which is basically the same thing Rand has with Lews Therin really. He doesn't have access to the memories of thousands of lives the way Birgitte had for a time or anything, but he knows of them, knows of the cycle that perpetuates them and has some familiarity with the process and how tiring it could be through even 1 repeat.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:55
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Yes, that's what I said thank you. He has not experienced the however many previous turnings of the wheel.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:56
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CainFortea posted:Yes, that's what I said thank you. He has not experienced the however many previous turnings of the wheel. I'm not sure how saying "he hasn't experienced any of it" and essentially boiling it down to being a tryhard emo or something is the same as saying "he has experienced the beginnings of it and is already tired of it", but okay.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:57
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CainFortea posted:Yea but he's tired of the concept. He himself has not experienced any of that. He's just a philosophy professor who took himself so seriously he put himself into ennui. Sure, but he’s figured out the game, he’s figured out the Wheel, and has decided he wants no part of it. I find that interesting. He’s discovered that all of life is reincarnation, and by the time of Rand has seen proof of it, and has chosen a totally anti-Buddhist belief, saying, “Yeah, that sounds loving terrible, I’m gonna break everything.” I just can’t think of many other characters like him.
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Jul 23, 2022 01:00
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Did he want to break the system? My reading was more that during the Age of Legends he became resigned to the fact that The Dark One was going to get his way eventually and would break the system, because he has essentially infinite tries, and even one win would mean he won forever. So Ishamael joined the Shadow, not out of a desire for power or a belief that the system should be broken; but because he couldn't see any other recourse. Which, I think, is why the Dark One valued him above the rest of the Chosen; he was the one Darkfriend who wasn't in it for selfish reasons, and as close to someone acting out of love or ideals as The Dark One had. Which is something Rand criticizes The Dark One for being incapable of inspiring in others in their final confrontation, and implies it'll ultimately be why the Shadow will always lose. Once Ishamael turns he starts using the True Power, which starts driving him insane and he seems to start thinking he is literally an avatar of The Dark One and not just his agent, which leads to him doing all kinds of horrible poo poo in the name of The Dark One and his win without really being able to consider it in his right mind. Which he regains when he becomes recycled as Moridin, and that knowledge of his past hits him like a sledge once he has regained his sanity, driving him to not want to break the cycle as far as I could see, but instead to just want to be taken out of the cycle entirely. "The only way to win is to not play the game at all" kind of thing. The Creator and The Dark One can keep playing their game; he just wants to stop having a role in it where he's constantly reborn to go through the same motions again and again, always either propping up a losing side or doing horrific poo poo to win. He and Rand mirror each other so well because Ishamael doesn't really want to be part of the Shadow, but he can't see any other way. He doesn't want to break the cycle initially, he just thinks it's inevitable it will happen, so he might as well support it because there's no point holding up a crumbling system. Once he's reborn he just wants out as far as I can tell, hang what The Creator or The Dark One want, who will win or lose etc. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Jul 23, 2022 |
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Jul 23, 2022 01:13
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tsob posted:I'm not sure how saying "he hasn't experienced any of it" and essentially boiling it down to being a tryhard emo or something is the same as saying "he has experienced the beginnings of it and is already tired of it", but okay. Because "he has experienced the beginning of it and is already tired of it". Means that he has not experienced all of it.
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Jul 23, 2022 01:18
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RC Cola posted:I always took forsaken to be the equivalent of black ajah. Aka darkfriend channelers. Basically that. The only reason they have a cool name is they gave it to themselves.
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Jul 23, 2022 01:20
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In other news, Rand's Illian campaign vs the Seanchan is one of my favorite sequences in the series. It's a shame about the other 600 pages in the book
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Jul 23, 2022 01:48
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tsob posted:. More importantly, we know from Moghedien that only roughly 30 people were ever empowered to use the True Power by The Dark One, My assumption has been that "Forsaken" or "Chosen", formally speaking, is a term for a member of this group -- not just a darkfriend or darkfriend channeler but someone specifically granted TP access, someone in that top tier.
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Jul 23, 2022 01:53
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CainFortea posted:Because "he has experienced the beginning of it and is already tired of it". Means that he has not experienced all of it. Your original wording was "all of it" though. Which is pretty distinct from "any of it". If you meant "any of it" all along, and just mistyped or whatever then sure, but I would think there's enough distinction there otherwise. Hieronymous Alloy posted:My assumption has been that "Forsaken" or "Chosen", formally speaking, is a term for a member of this group -- not just a darkfriend or darkfriend channeler but someone specifically granted TP access, someone in that top tier. It doesn't seem like most of the Forsaken can use it though, at least in the modern age. Maybe they're just so afraid that they don't use it normally, but I cannot imagine that Moghedien could access it throughout her captivity at Salidar, and just didn't because she was afraid it was too addictive or something. Semirhage's capture by Rand and imprisonment by the Wise Ones and Aes Sedai seems like it'd have been pretty trivial to escape if she could access the True Power too. Or Asmodean, while enslaved to Rand. Which he grows to accept pretty quickly, but is initially reluctant about and would presumably have used the True Power to escape and ensure The Dark One knew of his loyalty if he could. tsob fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jul 23, 2022 |
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Jul 23, 2022 02:07
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CainFortea posted:Gawyn is better. Yeah he just uselessly died because his ego was ridiculous whilst Galad was *checks notes* reforming fascists to ally with the people they would have murdered a year ago.
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Jul 23, 2022 02:45
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Natural 20 posted:Yeah he just uselessly died because his ego was ridiculous whilst Galad was *checks notes* reforming fascists to ally with the people they would have murdered a year ago. I just got through some of the sequences of Gawyn being a dipshit while Egwene asks him to stop interfering in her trying to trap the assassin killing Aes Sedai, and in one of her POVs there's the line, "that man would be the death of her," and like... yep. He is the reason she dies, basically. Because he sucks the most.
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Jul 23, 2022 03:25
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Him sucking the most directly leads to Egwene wrecking all the Sharans though, so at least he fulfilled.... something?
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Jul 23, 2022 03:57
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tsob posted:Your original wording was "all of it" though. Which is pretty distinct from "any of it". If you meant "any of it" all along, and just mistyped or whatever then sure, but I would think there's enough distinction there otherwise. "any of it" as in, he has not experienced an eternity of the same cycle. Every new cycle he has only experienced that one cycle. He posits that he is forever stuck in the same cycle, but he has no actual data to back it up. Because he only experiences these lives one at a time. Natural 20 posted:Yeah he just uselessly died because his ego was ridiculous whilst Galad was *checks notes* reforming fascists to ally with the people they would have murdered a year ago. Fascists he joined because his feelings aligned with theirs and only decided maybe it's bad to murder innocent women when his mother was "killed" by them. Gawyn was dumber though.
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Jul 23, 2022 04:13
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Gawyn's character arc is a straight line down and to the left. Galad at least has a little hitch up at the end.
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Jul 23, 2022 04:40
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Ego Trip posted:Gawyn's character arc is a straight line down and to the left. You mean back and to the left
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Jul 23, 2022 05:00
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tsob posted:Your original wording was "all of it" though. Which is pretty distinct from "any of it". If you meant "any of it" all along, and just mistyped or whatever then sure, but I would think there's enough distinction there otherwise. For Asmodean, his link to the Dark One was explicitly severed by Rand, so presumably he lost any ability to access the True Power. For the others, I think it's not just a matter of them being able to use the True Power, but the Dark One has to allow it. So you could say that the Dark One didn't want Moghedien escaping at that moment - either out of punishment for being caught or because he didn't want Moghedien to go on a rampage. When Moghedien is freed in the end, she is summoned to go directly to Shayol Ghul. Similarly, his plan for Semirhage wasn't just to have her escape, but to use her to break Rand down further. However, you could be right that True Power may not be useable by all the Chosen. I think Chosen/Forsaken just refers to them having been summoned to the Bore and directly ordered by the Dark One at some point.
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Jul 23, 2022 17:23
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CainFortea posted:"any of it" as in, he has not experienced an eternity of the same cycle. Every new cycle he has only experienced that one cycle. He posits that he is forever stuck in the same cycle, but he has no actual data to back it up. Because he only experiences these lives one at a time. He hasn't experienced them, but he has a pretty good idea they exist and so can extrapolate from there pretty concretely. It's worth bearing in mind that the Wheel, the Pattern, the Creator and reincarnation are taken as a fact of life within the setting, to a degree well beyond any analogue in real life, be it faith or philosophy. I don't think a single character in all 14 books ever questions any of it. It's completely accepted within the world of the books, across all cultures, nations and peoples. Including animals like wolves. Reincarnation is as real to them as...I don't know, death I guess, is to you or I. Ishamael taking them so definitively is, in itself, not unusual, because everyone, everywhere, has the same basic assumption. He just came to conclusions that no-one else did based on that knowledge. The heroes of the horn "living" in Tel'aran'rhiod between reincarnations also helps prove it to people like Moghedien, since they can actively interact with the souls of select individuals who are waiting to be reborn. Ishamael uses Tel'aran'rhiod quite a lot too, so it's not inconceivable he knew of them, or even interacted with them in some capacity. Which really, any dreamwalker could conceivably have done in the past, be they Aes Sedai, wolfsibling or what have you. Gully Foyle posted:For Asmodean, his link to the Dark One was explicitly severed by Rand, so presumably he lost any ability to access the True Power. For the others, I think it's not just a matter of them being able to use the True Power, but the Dark One has to allow it. So you could say that the Dark One didn't want Moghedien escaping at that moment - either out of punishment for being caught or because he didn't want Moghedien to go on a rampage. When Moghedien is freed in the end, she is summoned to go directly to Shayol Ghul. Similarly, his plan for Semirhage wasn't just to have her escape, but to use her to break Rand down further. I thought Rand only severed The Dark One's protection from the madness of Saidin, and not anything to do with the True Power? Which hadn't even come up at that point, so far as I recall. I assume those are different things at least, since one is to do with The Creator and the source of power derived from them, while the other is to do with The Dark One and a source of power derived from them. The Dark One does have to allow access though I think, yeah. As far as I can tell, anyone can theoretically use the True Power but only if and when The Dark One grants them access to do so. Which he has only granted to 29 people before according to Moghedien (29 in this turning of the Wheel, at least) when she sees the saa dots in Moridin's eyes before finding out that he is Nae'blis. Moghedien has access to it in the Last Battle, after Demandred has been killed but it doesn't seem like she has access to it before that. My assumption would be that most of those 29 people were only granted access for a time when held in particular favor or what have you, and that Ishamael/Moridin is probably the only one who ever had access to it for a protracted time since he had access to it when he confronts Lews Therin in the prologue (and uses it to heal his mind), and appears to have used it when fighting Rand as well as using it so often when reborn as Moridin that he already showed the saa almost constantly. The 29 also doesn't account for Rand. Or for Shaidar Haran, who was presumably using the True Power too; though whether it counts for him is another thing, since it seems like he's a direct avatar of The Dark One, and thus he wouldn't really be "granted" access since he'd just innately have it all along. Some of the other Forsaken besides Ishamael/Moridin must have had access to it before the Last Battle though, and Moghedien may even have had access to it herself in the past, because she seems to have direct knowledge of how addictive it is and is...maybe not scared, but certainly apprehensive about it. She also thinks about how it drives people mad if I recall, which implies that some other channeler used it so much in the past that they went insane. Besides Ishamael himself, I mean; though it's possibly him she's basing that off of. Still, it seems more likely another Forsaken during the War of Power was held in great favor for a time and went mad from overuse of the True Power. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 23, 2022 22:40
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Him sucking the most directly leads to Egwene wrecking all the Sharans though, so at least he fulfilled.... something?
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Jul 23, 2022 23:35
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I believe also that once someone is named Nae'Blis they become the only person allowed to access the true power on their own and anyone else needs to get their permission to even try. It is why Moridin exclusively used the TP. Both because his true believer status and as a way to rub it in to the others that he was truly the Nae'Blis.
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Jul 24, 2022 00:01
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Mage_Boy posted:I believe also that once someone is named Nae'Blis they become the only person allowed to access the true power on their own and anyone else needs to get their permission to even try. It is why Moridin exclusively used the TP. Both because his true believer status and as a way to rub it in to the others that he was truly the Nae'Blis. I swear this was actually mentioned. But the combo of 30 years of books/websites/Q&As/MUDs/speculating/weed I can't differentiate them anymore. loving old age e: like Ishy became the leader in book 7 and controlled much of everything. Shadar Haran was running around. just rambling now thinking of it all. taim looking for the fat man angreal, pissed they couldn't find it. Barreft fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 02:15
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Barreft posted:I swear this was actually mentioned. But the combo of 30 years of books/websites/Q&As/MUDs/speculating/weed I can't differentiate them anymore. loving old age Was the stricture lifted for the Last Battle then, cause Demandred, Moghedien and Taim/M'Hael all used the true power during the Last Battle and Moridin wasn't around for them to ask permission, because he had spent what would have been weeks of their time at the Bore fighting Rand.
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Jul 24, 2022 02:20
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Gully Foyle posted:For the others, I think it's not just a matter of them being able to use the True Power, but the Dark One has to allow it. So you could say that the Dark One didn't want Moghedien escaping at that moment - either out of punishment for being caught or because he didn't want Moghedien to go on a rampage. When Moghedien is freed in the end, she is summoned to go directly to Shayol Ghul. Similarly, his plan for Semirhage wasn't just to have her escape, but to use her to break Rand down further. It is fairly likely the DO doesnt have direct knowledge of the moment to moment lives of the forsaken and that the true power is approved in advance
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Jul 24, 2022 12:33
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tsob posted:Was the stricture lifted for the Last Battle then, cause Demandred, Moghedien and Taim/M'Hael all used the true power during the Last Battle and Moridin wasn't around for them to ask permission, because he had spent what would have been weeks of their time at the Bore fighting Rand. My understanding is that as the hole in the prison gets wider the dark one is more able to influence the world and can dole out more of the true power. So by the Gathering Storm Graendal has access to it because she's be incredibly competent until then. And yeah he initially gives the bulk to Nae'blis but then gives out some to the last remaining Forsaken for proving that they were smart enough not to die.
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Jul 24, 2022 14:23
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Natural 20 posted:My understanding is that as the hole in the prison gets wider the dark one is more able to influence the world and can dole out more of the true power. So by the Gathering Storm Graendal has access to it because she's be incredibly competent until then. I believe one of the Forsaken says it's also partly because it's the Last Battle, so the Dark One is going to pull out all the stops. They didn't get as much as Moridin but more than they would have before. I know that the Forsaken at Natrim's Burrow had some as well because she could do the possessing a bird thing, but it was very limited because they weren't Nae'blis.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:53
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