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The real difficulty in letting go of the gold is those drat traders and their limited cap supplies. 
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Jul 24, 2022 01:40
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Arc Hammer posted:If you couldnshove 800 pounds of gold into the severed foot of a crazy old man and the only downside was you had to walk it to the exit wouldn't you do that in real life? The whole ordeal would be just as tedious IRL and it'd be handled the same way. 12ga to the dome, grab one souvenir of a story no one would believe, then run like hell.
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Jul 24, 2022 01:44
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Gaius Marius posted:And the player character Even talking about the subject in fiction is a needle-thread few non-indigenous writers have ever managed to divorce themselves from cultural osmosis enough to meaningfully comment on, much less thread said needle. It's a whole DLC about infantilizing First Peoples and given that starting point, it's something of a shock that it rises above that as much as it does, but there's an awful lot of yikes in there. Chamale posted:Rope Kid has talked about how engine limitations affected Honest Hearts. Most importantly, the tribes were meant to be made up of multiple races, since they're the descendants of scattered survivors, but in order for them to have tattoos they all had to have the same skin tone. Of course, then you get into questions about authorial intent versus death of the author, and the fact that it was a conscious decision to choose the tattoos over diverse skin tones. Raygereio posted:Nah, this was a hardware limitation. Having the tribes have various different skin tones would have required loading those different skin textures into the video memory and consoles (PS3 in particular) just didn't have room in the memory budget for that. But also, I call bullshit. There are people of all races in the Mojave. If the tattoos are why they all had to be one race, ditch the loving tattoos. There's a great story hiding in there about a bunch of analogs for white people being condescendingly wrong in even deeming themselves important enough to decide the fates of a bunch of analogs for indigenous peeps, and how those viewpoints would all bump against one-another, but I'm just not sure any reading of Honest Hearts' many endings makes it clear that's the story we got. As for me, I side with Graham and talk him into having mercy because to me it's the least lovely ending slide. I love Honest Hearts, though. Warts and all.
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Jul 24, 2022 01:52
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Honest Hearts is about enjoying the exploration and tolerating the story.
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Jul 24, 2022 02:01
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Honest Hearts is about getting the tommy gun and 1911 in the base game.
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Jul 24, 2022 02:05
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DaysBefore posted:The NCR won't arrest you for the murder but you will have to pay import duties on the gold
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Jul 24, 2022 02:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-bS79pYXOY The Pioneer Saloon opened in 1913, right before video games got popular.
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Jul 24, 2022 04:36
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Arc Hammer posted:If you couldnshove 800 pounds of gold into the severed foot of a crazy old man and the only downside was you had to walk it to the exit wouldn't you do that in real life? No because I already have a personal item fabricator / vending machine and an unlimited supply of complementary tokens in my bunker.
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Jul 24, 2022 07:32
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My mistake the first time I played Honest Hearts (aside from shooting Follows-Chalk) was going in at too high of a level and not having Animal Friend.
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Jul 24, 2022 07:42
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LividLiquid posted:Yup. The whole DLC is pretty problematic, really, as it trades on the Western trope of "them Indians don't understand anything, amirite" whose thrust has shifted over time from "they're godless, mindless savages concerned only with murder" to "they're tiny naive children in need of protecting, but are also magical and wise -- also like fictitious children," and I don't think this DLC is above all that merely because it portrays all three major problematic media portrayals of indigenous peoples of North America instead of just one of them. ofc they dig really deep into the "tiny naive children" well with The Survivalist's logs. Metro Exodus revisited that idea of stranded school children creating their own tribe in one of its sections. The nature of the game makes you just a tourist passing through tho. Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 11:11
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I do think it's worthwhile considering what makes a culture; the Sorrow's pacifism is certainly and important part of their society, but preserving that means being pushed out of the Zion Canyon, which also presents a fairly dramatic geographical shift that will shape Sorrow society significantly going into the future. There's no option that preserves the status quo, only the decision to make a value judgement on what parts of Sorrow culture are worth sacrificing.
Vagabong fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 13:06
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The Sorrows aren't total pacifists, they mention that they have no issue with killing in self defense. In case it's not being mentioned, Daniel was coded to be asian to avoid the 'white saviour' issue, but his character model in the game is white because...gamebyro is gonna gamebyro.
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Jul 24, 2022 20:23
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OldMemes posted:In case it's not being mentioned, Daniel was coded to be asian to avoid the 'white saviour' issue, but his character model in the game is white because...gamebyro is gonna gamebyro.
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Jul 24, 2022 20:30
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Those were both caused by the QA pass by, IIRC
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Jul 24, 2022 20:36
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Cat Hassler posted:My mistake the first time I played Honest Hearts (aside from shooting Follows-Chalk) was going in at too high of a level and not having Animal Friend. Naww you little sweety
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Jul 24, 2022 22:56
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LividLiquid posted:Yup. The whole DLC is pretty problematic, really, as it trades on the Western trope of "them Indians don't understand anything, amirite" whose thrust has shifted over time from "they're godless, mindless savages concerned only with murder" to "they're tiny naive children in need of protecting, but are also magical and wise -- also like fictitious children," and I don't think this DLC is above all that merely because it portrays all three major problematic media portrayals of indigenous peoples of North America instead of just one of them. This kind of informs why you think of it as a white savior story or rather condescending toward the tribes. You voluntarily took the only (formerly) white character in the entire dlc and led a charge on a foreign (to you) race to protect another foreign race, and then put yourself in a position of benevolence, and made the moral decision by letting the leader go after wiping out the tribe. And then you just didn't think about what you did any further beyond the races of the people involved. My friend you WROTE a white savior story into your playthrough of honest hearts CJacobs fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 10:38
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I play as a native American courier so I can slaughter my way through Zion without it being problematic.
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Jul 25, 2022 11:35
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You: deep moral considerations and the careful weighing of all possible outcomes Me:  This has been a very fun and illuminating debate.
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Jul 25, 2022 11:39
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I play as a native American courier so I can slaughter my way through Zion without it being problematic. Legitimately one of the funniest moments on my livestream of the game was when I was playing through Honest Hearts and someone accused me of roleplaying the white savior on purpose... leading to a tap of F very slow scroll wheeling to reveal my black courier. (in the end I went with Daniel, blew the tunnel)
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Jul 25, 2022 12:19
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Isn't any version of Honest Heats playthroughs white savior tropes or dooming a population, because of the nature of videogames where you have to be the loving hero?
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Jul 25, 2022 12:29
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I don't see it that way personally because the tribes are treated as tokens in such stories and Obsidian put so much life and opinion on the matter into the tribes that honestly I felt kinda got ignored here in this discussion. You can straight up take them around and learn their culture, visit the mountaintops and look at the graffiti and if they are with you they'll tell you what it expresses. And it's not left up to you to decide for yourself its meaning, you are told its meaning and it's up to you to decide if it means anything to you on a personal level. So no, it's not a white savior story, they need rescuing from imminent danger. They don't need saving because they're already saved by being a close-knit group of people with faith you can learn about and express interest in. They're clear to you that this faith will survive no matter what you do- When you walk in they are straight up in the middle of telling you they don't really need your help but will take it anyway. edit: Genuinely, think of it this way. In a white savior archetype story, what happens is that the culture is taught to the white man by the guide he's given by someone wiser than him. That happens here too nearly exactly in the form of Graham handing you over Follows Chalk. The difference that in my opinion sets Obsidian's usage of that trope apart? In this game, instead, you have to ask, and you have to want to know. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 13:02
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Skwirl posted:Isn't any version of Honest Heats playthroughs white savior tropes or dooming a population, because of the nature of videogames where you have to be the loving hero? Not if you take sneering imperialist and gently caress off back to the Mojave
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Jul 25, 2022 13:20
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The tribes have so much agency in Honest Hearts that Waking Cloud legitimately influenced my decision on the streams I did to go with Daniel instead of Graham. I was going to go with Graham's less violent option because I was still unable to see through the one-dimensional nature of the White Legs as an antagonist... but Waking Cloud demonstrating aloud to you that none of this current conflict ACTUALLY matters because she's seen so many lives come and go because of who she is and what she does for her own, that I was literally given pause and rethought my own plan. Because it's not my plan. I'm not the savior. Obsidian made sure they matter too. edit: Sorry for posting so much I just have a really fond memory about this moment. It changed the way I think about stories like this in games forever. I legitimately had a discussion about this on the stream about this exact topic because I didn't know at all what to do and it really is nice to recall it here among people who give a poo poo about the game's writing like my chat did at the time. We got really invested, hunted down all the survivalist's logs and then talked out what to do while staring at the final one over a sunset! CJacobs fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 13:28
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Perhaps the real honest hearts were the ones we found along the way. This isn't a shitpost.
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Jul 25, 2022 14:24
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Honest Hearts has the survivalist's rifle so its top two by default if we're being completely honest with our hearts here
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Jul 25, 2022 14:52
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Honest Hearts is the best of the DLCs
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Jul 25, 2022 15:08
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CJacobs posted:The tribes have so much agency in Honest Hearts that Waking Cloud legitimately influenced my decision on the streams I did to go with Daniel instead of Graham. I was going to go with Graham's less violent option because I was still unable to see through the one-dimensional nature of the White Legs as an antagonist... but Waking Cloud demonstrating aloud to you that none of this current conflict ACTUALLY matters because she's seen so many lives come and go because of who she is and what she does for her own, that I was literally given pause and rethought my own plan. Because it's not my plan. I'm not the savior. Obsidian made sure they matter too. You and your chat watching the sunset- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqk4pWnVN5w
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Jul 25, 2022 15:19
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Campaign 2281 Daniel [no surname]: "Let's talk fleeing Zion." Joshua Graham: "Kill the bastards." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ZrU6qnhlg The Sorrows don't deserve to lose Zion so I just spread the Good News of High Velocity Brain Trauma among the White Legs. It did the Courier a world of good, maybe it'll do the same for the losers who aspire to be Roman cosplayers? Edit: You 'white saviour' either way because it's you who have to haul rear end to get together the bits and pieces needed for getting the tribes out of Zion safely. If you don't gather the compass and food and whatnot for them, it's awful for them on their journey to the Staircase or wherever the place is they flee to/through. If the Courier doesn't 'White Saviour' the day, Daniel fucks up the evacuation. Then the Sorrows need to rely on the more militant Mormons to 'protect' them in the harsh reality of the Wasteland. LashLightning fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 15:27
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whydirt posted:Honest Hearts is the best of the DLCs i think i'm going dead money > old world blues > lonesome road > honest hearts. survivalist's rifle is good but it doesn't make up for the everything else
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Jul 25, 2022 15:30
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I just think it'd be neat to see that big staircase
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Jul 25, 2022 15:45
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Arivia posted:i think i'm going dead money > old world blues > lonesome road > honest hearts. survivalist's rifle is good but it doesn't make up for the everything else Joshua Graham being quoted constantly on Instagram almost lifts it up over Dead Money but I love the stories of the Sierra Madre so much.
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Jul 25, 2022 15:47
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ThaumPenguin posted:I just think it'd be neat to see that big staircase 
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Jul 25, 2022 15:52
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hell yeah
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Jul 25, 2022 15:54
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NorgLyle posted:Joshua Graham being quoted constantly on Instagram almost lifts it up over Dead Money but I love the stories of the Sierra Madre so much. I think it's funny the misquote made the rounds because it sounds worse than what Graham actually said (they insert a "me" after "inside").
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Jul 25, 2022 16:00
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Yeah "fire inside me" adds a layer of selfishness to the line, making it a personal moment rather than a celebration of the inextinguishable human soul.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:07
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My dream of dreams is to one day see it in the wild next to an unironic Live, Love, Laugh sticker
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Jul 25, 2022 16:42
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MariusLecter posted:You and your chat watching the sunset- Fuckin lmao. Then we found out you still get to pal around with Graham on Daniel's path while you're physically running to the tunnel and immediately rejoiced because of course video gamers love watching slow motion throwing axe shots to the knees, in the end. We absolutely HAD to see "Joshua's Pistol Whippin' .45" in action and it was wonderful. FNV is a wonderful game it really is. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 19:38
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I've never fully understood the idea of what Fallout meant by "tribal" anyways. Like these people just arbitrarily decided to get into a bunch of weird rituals and regalia? Are these areas more isolated than other places in the wasteland? I'm pretty sure it wasn't a thing in Fallout 3, is it a thing in the first two Fallouts? Is it trying to allude to religion, but can't because Fallout can't address religion aside from sci-fi cults? I know somebody in the game tries to blow your mind by saying that everybody's actually tribal when you think about it, but that sounds more like the writer saying that the concept that they introduced is entirely meaningless.
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Jul 25, 2022 19:56
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SlothfulCobra posted:I've never fully understood the idea of what Fallout meant by "tribal" anyways. Like these people just arbitrarily decided to get into a bunch of weird rituals and regalia? Are these areas more isolated than other places in the wasteland? I'm pretty sure it wasn't a thing in Fallout 3, is it a thing in the first two Fallouts? Is it trying to allude to religion, but can't because Fallout can't address religion aside from sci-fi cults? Someone else will come along and explain the tribal distinction better than I can put it into clear words, but yes, it was definitely a thing in the Interplay games - hell, the Chosen One (the PC) in FO2 comes from a tribe with a protracted intro set within it.
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Jul 25, 2022 20:15
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SlothfulCobra posted:I've never fully understood the idea of what Fallout meant by "tribal" anyways. Like these people just arbitrarily decided to get into a bunch of weird rituals and regalia? Are these areas more isolated than other places in the wasteland? The idea is that after the bombs dropped, some more isolated groups created more unique cultures out of what they had on hand. It doesn't mean they've forgotten about history and science - some are well versed in both, some aren't - but their culture has diverged from the wastelanders who are occupying the ruins of cities and modelling their society on pre-war America. For example, Van Buren was going to have a group called the Cyphers who perserved tech by carving schematics on the walls of caves, and they get a mention in Dead Money. Their isolation makes them different from say, The Brotherhood, who claim continuity from Maxson's rebellion from the US army. The White Legs are an aggressive example, who have shunned pre-war culture, morality and understanding, whereas the Sorrows are much more open to it. In Fallout 3, you had tribals in Point Lookout. They weren't very interesting.
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Jul 25, 2022 20:24
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