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What other black wrestler has left AEW and got the "bad attitude" narrative? I want to say Big Swole but most folks were on her side after Tony started tweetin' and she only got Always Bad-ed in retrospect. Anyway, I think there's a fair amount of people in the AEW thread who aren't siding with Tony, are neutral about the whole situation, and, yes, are completely making GBS threads on Gresham. It's not the one-sided situation you think it is.
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Jul 25, 2022 13:29
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Swole is the only one I can think of. Lio Rush also left but that got a "well that sucks but Lio's gonna Lio" reaction, mostly. And Swole didn't so much get always badded as just kind of lost all sympathy when he started sniping at Jade on Twitter. Prior to that people were mostly in the "Tony shouldn't have tweeted that" camp.
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Jul 25, 2022 13:34
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flashy_mcflash posted:I've only heard of Jay being accused of (multiple instances of) one thing, which is coercing sex from people in exchange for pushes or higher spots on the card. Is Gresham doing that or is there something else? Jay Lethal was also accused of grooming AJ Lee even though their age gap is only two years apart and they dated when they were both teens. Meanwhile, Jordynne had apparently been hitting on Gresham since she was still a minor, although they only officially started dating when she turned 18.
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Jul 25, 2022 13:35
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flashy_mcflash posted:I've only heard of Jay being accused of (multiple instances of) one thing, which is coercing sex from people in exchange for pushes or higher spots on the card. Is Gresham doing that or is there something else? Someone on here called Jay a pedophile (dating girls in their teens.)
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Jul 25, 2022 13:37
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Swole is the only one I can think of. Lio Rush also left but that got a "well that sucks but Lio's gonna Lio" reaction, mostly. Personally I stopped "siding with labor" when Swole decided some wrestlers were not black enough to be in her spot
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Jul 25, 2022 14:04
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I'm not trying to be a "truth in the middle" dipshit but my read on the whole thing is that this is what happens when you get a too-busy boss who is always attracted to the latest thing conflicting with a talent with a strong sense of his own worth who routinely (accurately or otherwise) feels undervalued. Hope Gresham is able to find what he's looking for somewhere else.
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Jul 25, 2022 14:20
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MotU posted:That sounds like he values himself and his ideas. Weird to mark that as hard to work with, imo those two things are very independent of each other
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Jul 25, 2022 14:31
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Gumball Gumption posted:Personally I stopped "siding with labor" when Swole decided some wrestlers were not black enough to be in her spot Poster Tony was Always Right.
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Jul 25, 2022 14:33
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Was there a promo package for the World Title? I remember seeing promos for the Tag titles and the Pure title but not for the main one.
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Jul 25, 2022 14:40
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Lamuella posted:I'm not trying to be a "truth in the middle" dipshit but my read on the whole thing is that this is what happens when you get a too-busy boss who is always attracted to the latest thing conflicting with a talent with a strong sense of his own worth who routinely (accurately or otherwise) feels undervalued. Hope Gresham is able to find what he's looking for somewhere else. I think this is the most accurate reading. I can understand Gresham being pissed about losing the title, I can also understand Tony wanting to shake things up by putting the title on Claudio. My personal opinion is that Gresham was a great wrestler but I would have also put the title on Claudio or Lee Moriarty to freshen up the ROH title scene.
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Jul 25, 2022 14:54
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Lumbermouth posted:Was there a promo package for the World Title? I remember seeing promos for the Tag titles and the Pure title but not for the main one. not on the main show since it was up first, but the Road To was pretty good! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucA75S39T7Y
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Jul 25, 2022 14:57
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Lumbermouth posted:Was there a promo package for the World Title? I remember seeing promos for the Tag titles and the Pure title but not for the main one. There was on the preshow, not sure on the main show.
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Jul 25, 2022 14:57
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I think it’s just as simple as Gresh probably thought he’d be a bigger deal and pushed harder after Tony put him over at SCOH, and he felt comfortable signing after that. Realistically - I feel like he should have been able to suss out that wasn’t the case when every other champion on that show lost. With that said - he has the right to be upset that isn’t the case and to feel like he’d be used better elsewhere. So Tony should just do what he asked and release him.
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Jul 25, 2022 15:20
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HulkaMatt posted:I think it’s just as simple as Gresh probably thought he’d be a bigger deal and pushed harder after Tony put him over at SCOH, and he felt comfortable signing after that. If not for the need to re-unify the title, feels like there’s a good chance that title would’ve been moved to Tony’s preferred champion at that time as well.
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Jul 25, 2022 15:46
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What the hell is the pro-labor stance? Jon Gresham should actually have beaten Claudio and should be the top guy in ROH and shouldn't lose to anybody like he's done for the last 8 months? His point of contention is entirely about himself. Big Swole's complaint turned out to be the same as more information came out. A wrestler feeling they should be featured more isn't praxis and Gresh and Swole being Black doesn't mean they're right. It's mental seeing the comparison to Vince under the "Aha, stop simping for billionaires" umbrella. When Bobby Lashley left WWE, it was under pretty significantly different circumstances. Khan didn't rush to sign a Keith Lee whose health is still kinda uncertain or completely heatless Athena because he hates Black talent. I know, lots of words. But I think the throughline from Cody to MJF to Brian Cage to Big Swole to Jonathan Gresham is simply that pro wrestlers will tell Khan they don't like their booking and want different/more money and he's not opposed to saying no. So the talent leaves. That's what's going to happen with Santana when his leg recovers. And that's ok. That's completely fine and frankly good. Wrestlers should be able to say they do not like what one booker is doing and go to another. It's not an indictment on anyone involved in the process inherently. Now hey, if it turns out Khan used a slur or something, yeah. Down with TK, we'll all migrate to Joshi. But wanting to put Claudio over and not letting Jonathan Gresham shout him into changing that is so not anti-labor. Stop using words you only kinda understand!
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Jul 25, 2022 16:08
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completely heatless Athena is your nxt name
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Jul 25, 2022 16:18
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Absolute clownshoes to try to spin the Gresham situation as a “side with labor” dispute. Unserious.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:27
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Gumball Gumption posted:Personally I stopped "siding with labor" when Swole decided some wrestlers were not black enough to be in her spot Yeah Swole really couldn't have handled that poo poo worse if she tried.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:28
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This board was very much with labor when ACH had his issues in WWE and when ACH, Keith Lee, Lio, etc., had their issues with Delirious.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:28
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I mean, I think Tony Khan doesn’t want to have tough conversations with people and up until recently, he hasn’t had to. If you’re trying to launch a second wrestling company and you’re treating their main champion like an afterthought, dude has every right to be mad and demand clarification.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:34
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SonicRulez posted:What the hell is the pro-labor stance? Jon Gresham should actually have beaten Claudio and should be the top guy in ROH and shouldn't lose to anybody like he's done for the last 8 months? His point of contention is entirely about himself. Big Swole's complaint turned out to be the same as more information came out. A wrestler feeling they should be featured more isn't praxis and Gresh and Swole being Black doesn't mean they're right. It's mental seeing the comparison to Vince under the "Aha, stop simping for billionaires" umbrella. When Bobby Lashley left WWE, it was under pretty significantly different circumstances. Khan didn't rush to sign a Keith Lee whose health is still kinda uncertain or completely heatless Athena because he hates Black talent. The pro labor stance is that Low Ki and Hulk Hogan were right, and I am pro-labor, especially when it comes to Mr. Ki.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:35
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I definitely wouldn't look at a conversation about one person's desire for greater involvement in their own creative as a management/labor dispute, but there is 100% a recurring tendency to rally to the defense of the billionaire who runs the wrestling company people like & tear down any worker who has some complaints about how the business is run, which is a pretty off-putting dynamic Like, the fact that people feel comfortable reducing Gresham's complaints to "He's just mad he had to job to Claudio" is a pretty good representation of this phenomenon. It's not implausible that that's the root of his dissatisfaction and sometimes wrestlers are goofy and self serious, but it's also possible that his primary concern was his objectively herky-jerky characterization in the run-up to Death before Dishonor and the fact that he couldn't get a direct line of conversation with Tony Khan. Not saying Khan owed Gresham that level of access, but it's not unreasonable for Gresham to think he had earned it as a champion and standard bearer for ROH, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to walk away if he concluded that Khan didn't value him the way he believed he should be valued. It's also saying something that the forum consensus about the Big Swole situation is "She sucked and had it coming!" when the impetus for Tony's tweet was an aggregated headline highlighting a small portion of a much longer conversation in which Swole was frequently complementary of him and of AEW. I dunno. It's not like it's wholly unreasonable to look at any of the AEW vs. disgruntled worker situations and think the company didn't do anything meaningfully wrong (although it's hard for me to imagine defending the Swole tweet on any grounds other than "Embrace chaos"), but it is kind of a bummer to see the forum nearly unanimously band together to dismiss the complaints
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Jul 25, 2022 16:44
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Lumbermouth posted:I mean, I think Tony Khan doesn’t want to have tough conversations with people and up until recently, he hasn’t had to. If you’re trying to launch a second wrestling company and you’re treating their main champion like an afterthought, dude has every right to be mad and demand clarification. i feel like treating him as an afterthought wouldn't involve signing him to a contract
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Jul 25, 2022 16:49
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Walking out is the most interesting thing Gresham has ever done since I've become aware of him. The real tragedy here is that the discussion surrounding him has glossed over the true creative malfeasance on the show, which was putting Martinez over Deeb for reasons as yet inexplicable.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:53
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The "forums consensus" about Swole was largely "wow Tony's being a bit of an rear end in a top hat here" when he made his initial tweet about letting Swole go because he thought she sucked at wrestling, only for it to come out that Swole was mad that Jade Cargill was viewed as far more marketable than her and that Swole felt she should have gotten the level of push Jade got. And even with that knowledge, Swole has her defenders and detractors here, so claiming there's a "forums consensus" that Swole Was Always Bad is disingenuous to say the least. I don't care about Gresham one way or the other, if he and TK cool down and smooth things out, great. If he quits or gets fired or whatever, oh well.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:55
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Integrated Houston posted:Walking out is the most interesting thing Gresham has ever done since I've become aware of him. The real tragedy here is that the discussion surrounding him has glossed over the true creative malfeasance on the show, which was putting Martinez over Deeb for reasons as yet inexplicable. Not inexplicable, they want Deeb for the A-show and to be a contender for either Rosa or Jade. Making her a champ in ROH locks her away from being one if the major credible threats in their thin women's division as she can't be ROH champ and losing.
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Jul 25, 2022 16:56
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Integrated Houston posted:Walking out is the most interesting thing Gresham has ever done since I've become aware of him. The real tragedy here is that the discussion surrounding him has glossed over the true creative malfeasance on the show, which was putting Martinez over Deeb for reasons as yet inexplicable. Mercedes debuted in ROH 16 years ago and is really good.
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Jul 25, 2022 17:01
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MassRafTer posted:Torch is saying Gresham is gone, that he had an altercation with Tony after losing the title and either he was given his release or Tony fired him. Cool
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Jul 25, 2022 17:15
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xbilkis posted:I definitely wouldn't look at a conversation about one person's desire for greater involvement in their own creative as a management/labor dispute, but there is 100% a recurring tendency to rally to the defense of the billionaire who runs the wrestling company people like & tear down any worker who has some complaints about how the business is run, which is a pretty off-putting dynamic I have no issue or criticism for Gresham feeling he deserved better. Every wrestler can feel that way. I just think that recontextualizes "Tony Khan was completely inaccessible and ghosted Gresham" which is how the story first broke. That Gresham heard nothing from creative and that frustrated him. We've further learned that it was more that he got communication and simply disagreed with what he was given. That's fine. He's allowed to dislike the heel turn, being paired with Tully and then Prince Nana, opening the show, only getting 11 minutes, losing to Claudio, and everything in between. But once it becomes about two conflicting opinions and not a structural issue behind AEW's method of talent relations, it stops being about whether or not we're going with Team Billionaire or Team Labor. From that point, as a fan, it's just about whether I agree or not with the talent's self-assessment. At least that's the way my fandom works, I won't speak for everyone else. I think Big Swole wasn't very good, didn't show enough improvement over the years, and Khan's tweet was mean-spirited and he should leave that stuff to the fans. On the other hand, I think Lio Rush could've been a much bigger deal and it's a shame they couldn't work things out. I don't think it's improper for people to see Gresham's complaints and decide he's not worth that much back and forth. The list of talent lost/rearranged from Brian Cage (vaccination status still unknown), Janela, Marko, Swole, and now Gresham doesn't scare me. But that's just me! That's my own fan opinion on who in AEW is good or bad. Suppose my thought, right or wrong, is that when a talent disagrees with their booking every person can agree or disagree without it being an indictment on either the booker or talent until it goes full WWE and the talent is denied their release or called a slur or something along those lines.
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Jul 25, 2022 17:38
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Swole thinks it's cool that Vince paid hush money to the employee he sexual harassed because she was hot.
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Jul 25, 2022 17:42
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I just want to note that I’m also fine with Gresham leaving because he was never the same after Ogogo broke him.
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Jul 25, 2022 17:53
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I won’t be satisfied until the Big Banter Billionaire calls him out on twitter and tags his wife too, tbqh.
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Jul 25, 2022 18:14
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MassRafTer posted:Torch is saying Gresham is gone, that he had an altercation with Tony after losing the title and either he was given his release or Tony fired him. This is also an important distinction between these and the WWE releases when discussing this. Tony is at least respecting the independent contractor status as it should be and granting the releases when asked (or just not renewing at the end of their contracts like Swole, Janela and Angels) instead of keeping them in catering or spite booking for humiliation.
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Jul 25, 2022 18:25
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FTR are GOAT
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Jul 25, 2022 18:27
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Jonathan Gresham is absolutely right to think he should leave ROH if he believes he can do better than they're offering him just like Tony Khan is absolutely right to think Gresham isn't good enough to build the brand around
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Jul 25, 2022 18:45
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Maybe Gresham should go back to his old gimmick, the electric Hieracon.
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Jul 25, 2022 18:55
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I could see Gresham joining Honor No More in Impact Wrestling, should he sign there. Then we could see him wrestle Josh Alexander again, and this time it won't result in a double-pin! (their first encounter was in Terminus, and was good) Edward Mass fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 18:56
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Integrated Houston posted:Walking out is the most interesting thing Gresham has ever done since I've become aware of him. The real tragedy here is that the discussion surrounding him has glossed over the true creative malfeasance on the show, which was putting Martinez over Deeb for reasons as yet inexplicable. I mean just from watching the match (and past few matches she's had) it's easy to see that Mercedes is really loving good and even at like 41 years old wipes the floor with many of the younger women in AEW. Deeb is someday going to be a TNT/women's belt holder but for now I'm sure the plan was mainly "put two of my most talented women together for a great match"
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Jul 25, 2022 19:31
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trade gresham for eddie edwards and davey richards
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Jul 25, 2022 19:31
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Deeb is more over and should’ve won. 
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Jul 25, 2022 19:56
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