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The Lord Bude posted:I was sure there was some subtext there with Clonfert. As others have already stated, there was an intensity to his fixation on Jack that could potentially raise that suspicion, but it was addressed and noted to not be anything of the sort. ovenboy posted:I feel like there was something along those lines regarding the ship they pick up (all grown up) Richardson from, but I can't quite place it. Oh, you mean a Lt Richardson, previously a very spotty Midshipman, hence known as 'Spotted Dick' had grown up into an Adonis, and was employed as an Admiral's flag lieutenant. It's noted that the Admiral has selected him at least partly because of his preference for beautiful young men, and it's noted that the wider service observes this tendency with good humour and tolerance - but probably because it's never acted upon. For example there's no insinuation that Richardson is actually in any sort of relationship with the Admiral, he's portrayed as completely unaware of it.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:13
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Jul 27, 2022 08:39
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Lions Led by Donkeys has a great episode about that, including about the official gangs of government kidnap squads that would snatch any unusually tall children or foreign diplomats as a gift to the king.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:20
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It was Frederick William I, not II. I don’t think he was gay but his son Frederick the Great was definitely pretty gay. E: also in a time when women weren’t entirely thought of as real people, I don’t think it’s too surprising that heterosexual men admired the manly bearing and good looks of other men, especially of lower classes. As we might appreciate a good looking purebred dog as a fine specimen of its species, so might an 18th century man appreciate a regiment of particularly splendid soldiers. Kaiser Schnitzel fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 19:26
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:
Certainly! I just happened upon the splendid soldiers just as we were discussing all the ships full of young Apollos and thought that it was a fun coincidence.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:29
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Notahippie posted:Lions Led by Donkeys has a great episode about that, including about the official gangs of government kidnap squads that would snatch any unusually tall children or foreign diplomats as a gift to the king. It sounds like you got to chill in a coddled army unit that never has to fight. Probably worse ways to be a peasant.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:56
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Is anyone aware of a good YouTube video that goes over all the components of these ships and their rigging? Basically a video version of the chapter early in Master and Commander where Maturin is getting the rundown on that stuff - the book is doing an admirable job of trying to teach me these things, but I'm a visual learner who really struggles with mental imagery, and keeping this stuff straight is quite a challenge without seeing an example of it. I suspect listening to the audiobook version is exacerbating that problem quite a bit, but man is this narrator awesome.
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Jul 28, 2022 01:24
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IIRC the Sørlandet videos are okay but there's nothing perfect. When I read the books the first time I also bought an illustrated book on model-making for tall ships that was necessarily detailed and visual and that was helpful to me.
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Jul 28, 2022 02:09
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Kestral posted:Is anyone aware of a good YouTube video that goes over all the components of these ships and their rigging? Basically a video version of the chapter early in Master and Commander where Maturin is getting the rundown on that stuff - the book is doing an admirable job of trying to teach me these things, but I'm a visual learner who really struggles with mental imagery, and keeping this stuff straight is quite a challenge without seeing an example of it. I suspect listening to the audiobook version is exacerbating that problem quite a bit, but man is this narrator awesome. https://www.amazon.com/Sea-Words-Third-Companion-Seafaring/dp/0805066152 Google/wikipedia are pretty helpful too. GISing 'tall ship rigging' will get you great diagrams. It's also not really that important to understand all that stuff! The excitement of O'Brian's prose doesn't usually hinge on knowing exactly what is going on, and you can pretty quickly get a sense that 'the enemy ship has the weather gauge' is bad, 'thick and dry for weighing' means ready to set sail, and 'fishing a spar/mast' means a makeshift repair to something or other even if you don't know exactly what it entails.
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Jul 28, 2022 02:24
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Kestral posted:Is anyone aware of a good YouTube video that goes over all the components of these ships and their rigging? Basically a video version of the chapter early in Master and Commander where Maturin is getting the rundown on that stuff - the book is doing an admirable job of trying to teach me these things, but I'm a visual learner who really struggles with mental imagery, and keeping this stuff straight is quite a challenge without seeing an example of it. I suspect listening to the audiobook version is exacerbating that problem quite a bit, but man is this narrator awesome. The need to know, to understand, was what killed my enjoyment the first time I tried to read Master and Commander and it was a few years before I tried again and the advice from this thread, that anything you need to know will be explained to Maturin who knows nothing himself, and to let everything else wash over you, is what turned my earlier frustration to joy. Kaiser Schnitzel posted:This book is great, and provides alot of context alot beyond just the rigging and working of the ship: In time you’ll pick up much from context, but I second this Sea of Words reference book, it’s great, specifically tailored to the series. Otherwise I also second Wikipedia and google search, they has been my friend and companion in understanding. Also ask here! I have.
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Jul 28, 2022 03:35
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There's also an in-progress sailing simulator, A Painted Ocean. I've dabbled with it, it's got full control over all the sails. Try and survive a storm ! https://thapen.itch.io/painted-ocean
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Jul 28, 2022 03:51
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The Lord Bude posted:I feel like something very similar happened in book 4 with the captains under Jack’s command. Responding to posts from weeks ago but McAdam (the surgeon) was gay and in love with Clonfert.
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Aug 8, 2022 20:54
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Mulaney Power Move posted:Responding to posts from weeks ago but McAdam (the surgeon) was gay and in love with Clonfert. What gives you that impression? Maturin flat out asks McAdam at one point if Clonfert is gay, as part of their discussion of his psyche, and McAdam dismisses the idea in crude terms, which makes me doubt he is in the closet himself. I had read McAdam being just a long standing friend of Clonfert's, and someone who cared deeply about him as a patient.
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Aug 8, 2022 20:58
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Genghis Cohen posted:What gives you that impression? Maturin flat out asks McAdam at one point if Clonfert is gay, as part of their discussion of his psyche, and McAdam dismisses the idea in crude terms, which makes me doubt he is in the closet himself. I had read McAdam being just a long standing friend of Clonfert's, and someone who cared deeply about him as a patient. My interpretation wouldn't go so far as to say that McAdams was definitively gay and in love with Clonfert, but there's definitely a semiromantic aspect to his connection to him. Stephen mentally comments at some point about how McAdams' face lit up when Clonfert was in full manic pirate mode, and McAdams specifically says something like "have ye ever seen a man so beautiful" or something about Clonfert when Clonfert was in high spirits at some point. I think there's some kind of attraction there, but whether even McAdams himself is consciously aware of it is unclear.
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Aug 9, 2022 18:53
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Notahippie posted:My interpretation wouldn't go so far as to say that McAdams was definitively gay and in love with Clonfert, but there's definitely a semiromantic aspect to his connection to him. Stephen mentally comments at some point about how McAdams' face lit up when Clonfert was in full manic pirate mode, and McAdams specifically says something like "have ye ever seen a man so beautiful" or something about Clonfert when Clonfert was in high spirits at some point. I think there's some kind of attraction there, but whether even McAdams himself is consciously aware of it is unclear. That’s an interesting take! When I read that book I saw the relationship of Clonfert and McAdams as running to Aubrey and Maturin’s - only their adventures happened off-screen. What’s interesting in the series is that male friendships rarely self-destruct; it’s usually a love interest entering them (like Louisa Wogen, Diana Villers, or Clarissa Oakes) that destabilizes their relationship. Even Wray and Ledward were ultimately undone in the bedroom. I guess the message from O’Brian there is that men are better off as chaste islands unto themselves? That certainly seems to be his opinion about shipboard life, where women sailing with the crew is almost always disruptive to male relationships - save for that surgeon’s mate in Hundred Days who seemed to be respected by everybody?
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Aug 9, 2022 23:36
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Notahippie posted:My interpretation wouldn't go so far as to say that McAdams was definitively gay and in love with Clonfert, but there's definitely a semiromantic aspect to his connection to him. Stephen mentally comments at some point about how McAdams' face lit up when Clonfert was in full manic pirate mode, and McAdams specifically says something like "have ye ever seen a man so beautiful" or something about Clonfert when Clonfert was in high spirits at some point. I think there's some kind of attraction there, but whether even McAdams himself is consciously aware of it is unclear. That line specifically was what stood out, but there were also some vague comments that I read as derisive toward relationships between men and women, like when Maturin essentially asks him to diagnose his depression. Stephen asks if he can remain capable of love and McAdam says " As between men and women, I use the term lust" and says a burning desire for "some slut" might answer.
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Aug 9, 2022 23:52
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Mulaney Power Move posted:That line specifically was what stood out, but there were also some vague comments that I read as derisive toward relationships between men and women, like when Maturin essentially asks him to diagnose his depression. Stephen asks if he can remain capable of love and McAdam says " As between men and women, I use the term lust" and says a burning desire for "some slut" might answer. McAdam wasn’t exactly held up in the books as a paragon of virtue and wisdom though, was he?
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Aug 10, 2022 04:44
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Also O’Brien is being accurate to the period, it’s a stretch to think the opinions expressed by the characters are necessarily a reflection of his own personal beliefs.
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Aug 10, 2022 11:14
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Hot Dog Day #82 posted:That’s an interesting take! When I read that book I saw the relationship of Clonfert and McAdams as running to Aubrey and Maturin’s - only their adventures happened off-screen. What’s interesting in the series is that male friendships rarely self-destruct; it’s usually a love interest entering them (like Louisa Wogen, Diana Villers, or Clarissa Oakes) that destabilizes their relationship. Even Wray and Ledward were ultimately undone in the bedroom. Like The Lord Bude said it's always risky to impute the authors' pov from the characters, but personally I definitely feel like O'Brian's take on marriage and for that matter life in general is pretty pessimistic. I don't think there's a happy marriage in the series except for maybe Pullings,' and like you said women are usually presented as a cause of unhappiness. You get a little of that stated directly by Stephen when Sir Blaine is interested in a woman and Maturin tries to talk him out of it. I also always felt like Maturin's musings on humanity felt to me like O'Brian's - in particular the passage, I think actually in book 4, where he thinks something like "many men die before their time - they show a flash of life in their twenties, then die and join the grey things that creep across the land." I dunno, there's something kind of heartfelt in that framing. My mental image of O'Brian has always been that he was depressive and somewhat cynical about the possibility of happiness, but I don't know if that's a fair interpretation or not.
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Aug 11, 2022 17:49
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The problem with that analysis . . .I'd be inclined to agree with it, but the books have such flashes of such immense joy, joy beyond all disappointment
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Aug 11, 2022 17:54
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Notahippie posted:Like The Lord Bude said it's always risky to impute the authors' pov from the characters, but personally I definitely feel like O'Brian's take on marriage and for that matter life in general is pretty pessimistic. I don't think there's a happy marriage in the series except for maybe Pullings,' and like you said women are usually presented as a cause of unhappiness. You get a little of that stated directly by Stephen when Sir Blaine is interested in a woman and Maturin tries to talk him out of it. I also always felt like Maturin's musings on humanity felt to me like O'Brian's - in particular the passage, I think actually in book 4, where he thinks something like "many men die before their time - they show a flash of life in their twenties, then die and join the grey things that creep across the land." I dunno, there's something kind of heartfelt in that framing. My mental image of O'Brian has always been that he was depressive and somewhat cynical about the possibility of happiness, but I don't know if that's a fair interpretation or not. There is so much joy, wonder, excitement, marvels at learning the ways of Nature and humanity in his books, alongside fighting a very noble cause (and presumably getting quite wealthy as well) against a Tyrant.... I'd have to disagree. Jack's marriage is far from unhappy. It's life's ups and downs, it's a marriage. And his take on Stephen and Diana is somewhere in the neighborhood of the love poems of Jalal al'din Rumi.
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Aug 11, 2022 18:07
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Notahippie posted:Like The Lord Bude said it's always risky to impute the authors' pov from the characters, but personally I definitely feel like O'Brian's take on marriage and for that matter life in general is pretty pessimistic. I don't think there's a happy marriage in the series except for maybe Pullings,' and like you said women are usually presented as a cause of unhappiness. You get a little of that stated directly by Stephen when Sir Blaine is interested in a woman and Maturin tries to talk him out of it. I also always felt like Maturin's musings on humanity felt to me like O'Brian's - in particular the passage, I think actually in book 4, where he thinks something like "many men die before their time - they show a flash of life in their twenties, then die and join the grey things that creep across the land." I dunno, there's something kind of heartfelt in that framing. My mental image of O'Brian has always been that he was depressive and somewhat cynical about the possibility of happiness, but I don't know if that's a fair interpretation or not. Oh yes, both you and Lord Bude are absolutely right about the dangers of trying to impose the author’s personal viewpoint on his creation. I guess my issues come from having reading Dean King biography on O’Brian, where he talks about how POB walked out on his first marriage and then went on to write things like “… many women are bores out of bed and often in it” in his biography on Picasso. I’ve been trying to “forget” the biography during my current read through of the series, but it’s hard not to when scenes like you described (between Stephen and Joseph) pop up here and there. Hot Dog Day #82 fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Aug 11, 2022 |
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Aug 11, 2022 18:20
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Notahippie posted:Like The Lord Bude said it's always risky to impute the authors' pov from the characters, but personally I definitely feel like O'Brian's take on marriage and for that matter life in general is pretty pessimistic. I don't think there's a happy marriage in the series except for maybe Pullings,' and like you said women are usually presented as a cause of unhappiness. You get a little of that stated directly by Stephen when Sir Blaine is interested in a woman and Maturin tries to talk him out of it. I also always felt like Maturin's musings on humanity felt to me like O'Brian's - in particular the passage, I think actually in book 4, where he thinks something like "many men die before their time - they show a flash of life in their twenties, then die and join the grey things that creep across the land." I dunno, there's something kind of heartfelt in that framing. My mental image of O'Brian has always been that he was depressive and somewhat cynical about the possibility of happiness, but I don't know if that's a fair interpretation or not. Spoilers for folks who haven't read all the books. Don't babbington and mrs. wray end up happily married?
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Aug 11, 2022 18:55
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I’ve read the series a couple times through, and taking some sailing lessons made the reread immensely more enjoyable. Trimming sheet tension, building up speed for a tack, the thrill of heeling as you go not very fast at all, they all made the seamanship parts of the book come alive. Also sailing is fun as hell on its own.
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Aug 12, 2022 01:06
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builds character posted:Spoilers for folks who haven't read all the books. Don't babbington and mrs. wray end up happily married? Yes, they do and she's quite bubbly for him. e.g. "Charles"
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Aug 12, 2022 01:16
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hannibal posted:Yes, they do and she's quite bubbly for him. e.g. "Charles" Queenie is also super happy, right? Also, like, alllll of the Sethians. And I thought Dundas but that one is a little shakier in my recollection. (Time for a reread?) Jagiello at least heads to the altar in happiness. On the other hand, there are so very many books written over such a long time that it’s maybe not fair to give secondary characters nearly as much weight as the main ones. And if we were there’d always be Harte as a counterpoint. No spoilers on that one.
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Aug 12, 2022 02:13
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builds character posted:Spoilers for folks who haven't read all the books. Don't babbington and mrs. wray end up happily married? Don't forget Dr. Maturin treated him for syphilis several times, so he probably ended up giving it to her.
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Aug 12, 2022 03:04
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builds character posted:Queenie is also super happy, right? A number of Sethians went back to sea after their relevation that polygamy was cool and their wives’ subsequent revelation that they didn’t have to put up with that kind of poo poo
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Aug 12, 2022 03:06
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Kei Technical posted:A number of Sethians went back to sea after their relevation that polygamy was cool and their wives’ subsequent revelation that they didn’t have to put up with that kind of poo poo Fair but the ones that didn’t should count double or triple. 
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Aug 12, 2022 03:10
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builds character posted:Fair but the ones that didn’t should count double or triple. Unassailable logic
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Aug 12, 2022 03:15
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I always feel like the Sethians were a religious refugee community from Discworld and I love them for it. In a perfect world where O'Brian and Pratchett had an extremely british clone baby together, I would happily read a spinoff novel series about the Sethians' previous sea adventures, since IIRC several of them had been successful privateers or smugglers in earlier careers.
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Aug 12, 2022 11:20
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Notahippie posted:Like The Lord Bude said it's always risky to impute the authors' pov from the characters, but personally I definitely feel like O'Brian's take on marriage and for that matter life in general is pretty pessimistic. I don't think there's a happy marriage in the series except for maybe Pullings,' and like you said women are usually presented as a cause of unhappiness. You get a little of that stated directly by Stephen when Sir Blaine is interested in a woman and Maturin tries to talk him out of it. I also always felt like Maturin's musings on humanity felt to me like O'Brian's - in particular the passage, I think actually in book 4, where he thinks something like "many men die before their time - they show a flash of life in their twenties, then die and join the grey things that creep across the land." I dunno, there's something kind of heartfelt in that framing. My mental image of O'Brian has always been that he was depressive and somewhat cynical about the possibility of happiness, but I don't know if that's a fair interpretation or not. I don't think it's women or life in general per se as much as "anything that isn't at sea" that is unhappy and pessimistic. The sea is where you have grand adventures, doing things like finding new places on the globe to explore and French people to beat up. It's wonderful and glorious. But life back in England - "not at sea" - is dull. It's where you go to wait to go back to sea, filling your time with things like Admiralty politics, squabbles over money, and other such dreariness.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:36
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builds character posted:And I thought Dundas but that one is a little shakier in my recollection. (Time for a reread?) The real Heneage Dundas died at the age of 56, having never married, and he'd been ashore for a good while by that point. E: not that marriage necessarily equals happiness, of course.
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Aug 12, 2022 18:44
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Raskolnikov2089 posted:Don't forget Dr. Maturin treated him for syphilis several times, so he probably ended up giving it to her. Look, Maturin treats you, you're cured, stands to reason
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Aug 12, 2022 23:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Look, Maturin treats you, you're cured, stands to reason I mean, he is a physician, with a gold tipped cane. Not some common surgeon.
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Aug 13, 2022 00:55
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Babbington's grandchildren will be gibbering toothless idiots
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Aug 13, 2022 13:39
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builds character posted:Queenie is also super happy, right?
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Aug 13, 2022 17:07
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Genghis Cohen posted:I'm not sure that Dundas' wife is ever mentioned? We do hear of Heneage's 'tribe of little bastards' and his entanglements with various girls are mentioned throughout the series, so if he does have a happy marriage it's to a very understanding woman! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Dundas_%28Royal_Navy_officer%29 "died in office, unmarried, of apoplexy" shortly after being made First Naval Lord.
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Aug 13, 2022 17:15
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Mulaney Power Move posted:Babbington's grandchildren will be gibbering toothless idiots This is something I'm a bit confused by as I near the end of the first book. I got the impression that Babbington and (most of?) the midshipmen were kids or young teens, but Babbington is also apparently loving everything that moves  How old are these people? And is there some cultural context I'm missing here?
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Aug 14, 2022 02:39
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Babbington's precocious escapades are a topic of frequent comment!
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