|
Cpt_Obvious posted:General question to the thread: I think she genuinely believes she is politically the smartest person in Arizona. It is a state that is rough for Democrats and she thinks this whole standing up to the leaders/being a maverick thing is her ticket to re-election. She seems to not be afraid of a potential primary challenge at all.
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 02:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 03:51 |
|
|
I think the only reason this is even a story is because cinema is not going to vote for it, but I hope I am wrong
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 02:43
|
|
|
Sinema does what she does because she is being paid large amounts of money to do it, and can't believe it's that easy. I'm pretty sure her donors are gleefully seeing what they can get away with.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 02:48
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Sinema does what she does because she is being paid large amounts of money to do it, and can't believe it's that easy. I'm pretty sure her donors are gleefully seeing what they can get away with. You are trying to find a rational, logical explanation for her votes, and this is a fun one, but I don't think there is a good reason, she's just that stupid and/or nuts.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 02:50
|
|
|
Rigel posted:You are trying to find a rational, logical explanation for her votes, and this is a fun one, but I don't think there is a good reason, she's just that stupid and/or nuts. This is just active rejection of critical thinking in favor of regurgitating misogynist tropes someone else told you lol Everything old is new again. Unironic belief in the Manchin Cycle, fanfiction about how the CPC is setting itself up to flex its muscles, insistence that Sinema is an inscrutable trickster goddess who would know she's only setting herself up for ruin and cooperate if she wasn't such a dumb bimbo. Summer 2022 is shaping up to just be summer 2021 but even more absurd because nobody here learned anything
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:20
|
|
|
Rigel posted:I think she genuinely believes she is politically the smartest person in Arizona. It is a state that is rough for Democrats and she thinks this whole standing up to the leaders/being a maverick thing is her ticket to re-election. She seems to not be afraid of a potential primary challenge at all. Whoever posted a couple pages back that "she thinks this will help her be the first female president" is correct. If/when she loses her seat in 2024 we could see a wonderful Sinema/Yang ticket down the line. Or see that in 2024.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:21
|
|
|
= opens USCE Summer 2022 thread = = Yakity Sax plays as Sinema, Manchin, and the rest of the Democrats duke out to see what goes in the reconcilation bill = = closes USCE Summer 2022 thread =
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:26
|
|
|
TheIncredulousHulk posted:This is just active rejection of critical thinking in favor of regurgitating misogynist tropes someone else told you lol Where the gently caress does this misogyny bullshit even come from? She is pointlessly provoking a primary challenge for really no good reason at all. Her actions are not just infuriating, they appear to be very..... unwise if she wants to continue to be a Senator. She's either an idiot, or she actually knows something we don't about how to be re-elected in Arizona and the rest of us are all idiots.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:27
|
|
|
Rigel posted:You are trying to find a rational, logical explanation for her votes, and this is a fun one, but I don't think there is a good reason, she's just that stupid and/or nuts. The rational logical explanation is that it is probably a win-win for her. She either gets to fulfill her dream of being the first woman President, prove all of her haters wrong, be the center of attention in stories published by the NYT and WaPo every week, and validate her belief that her victories in the state house, House of Representatives, and the Senate that everyone said she was blowing were actually because of her unique political acumen. Or, she takes her donor network that exists outside of traditional Democratic political fundraiser circles and special interest groups (which also happen to be overwhelmingly made up of corporations from big money industries) and leverages that into a high profile and lucrative career that keeps her in the spotlight and well paid. This independent donor network she built that removes any financial leverage that special interest groups, traditional Democratic party bundlers and fundraisers, or party officials might have over her is legitimately impressive and someone will surely hire her for her ability to create/her access to those networks even if it is for non-political reasons. She is a manic-pixie dream girl who loves attention, mystery, and quirkiness. But, those mostly flavor her decisions rather than guide them. Except for some times when she legitimately does things that seem to hamper herself and her donors for no reason other than her whims. But, she's not a robot and isn't going to be a 100% effective vessel for her donors all the time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:28
|
|
|
GoutPatrol posted:Whoever posted a couple pages back that "she thinks this will help her be the first female president" is correct. Yeah this fits perfectly https://twitter.com/BpopeTV/status/1552700743156736000
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:29
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Where the gently caress does this misogyny bullshit even come from? I think it is found herein: Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:She is a manic-pixie dream girl who loves attention, mystery, and quirkiness. But, those mostly flavor her decisions rather than guide them. Except for some times when she legitimately does things that seem to hamper herself and her donors for no reason other than her whims.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:30
|
|
|
there is a degree of, well, ditzyness or empty-headed-ness being ascribed to sinema's actions that is very likely influenced by sexist tropes in our culture.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:35
|
|
|
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am more focused on someone who went from being elected as a Democrat in Arizona, to THIS in just a few years: https://www.newsweek.com/kyrsten-sinema-filibuster-senate-gallego-arizona-1673493 I know that its a partisan poll, but its not even close. What little we have from data and from political experts suggest that she's going to be absolutely crushed in her next primary unless things change for her before 2024.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:38
|
|
|
It's incredibly lovely for people to focus on that stuff when her garbage record speaks for itself, but she certainly makes choices to play right into that from time to time, like the curtsy thing or the Twitter pic of her drinking a fruity alcoholic beverage with her "gently caress you" ring front and center. But certainly the smart and cultured denizens of debate and discussion know better than to focus on weird personal quirks and instead talk about her consistent record of loving big Democratic bills that would enact supposed Democratic policy goals.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:40
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Where the gently caress does this misogyny bullshit even come from? She is pointlessly provoking a primary challenge for really no good reason at all. Her actions are not just infuriating, they appear to be very..... unwise if she wants to continue to be a Senator. She's either an idiot, or she actually knows something we don't about how to be re-elected in Arizona and the rest of us are all idiots. Lol it's misogyny because she doesn't operate in a significantly different manner than Manchin and yet it must be a result of her being a dumb broad who somehow whoopsydoodled her way into the US Senate. If she were a man nobody would traffick this horseshit The good reason is that she's garnered massive support from business interests by enacting their priorities, which is much more important to future political and financial success than bullshit fantasies about the power of popular opinion. These interests have given her a fuckton of money to do what they want and have thanked her directly for doing it, in plain and unambiguous language I don't know why you're saying "we" and "the rest of us" when you're just talking about yourself. She isn't an idiot though so you can draw your own conclusions about who is
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:41
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:General question to the thread: She's an rear end in a top hat, OP. She's an rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:42
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:I think it is found herein: Sinema has literally described herself as "the pink tutu wearing pixie of Arizona progressive politics" back when she was in the State House and describes herself as funky and quirky. There have also been dozens of articles in major outlets about how she would only negotiate in private and one-on-one because she wanted to keep herself mysterious and give her room to maneuver on her positions without pinning herself down. It is a very clear political style and personal brand she's built for almost 20 years. It's part of the basic political branding any good politician will do and hers helps curate the "brave independent centrist outsider" image. As I said before, it flavors her decisions, but doesn't guide them. Politically, she is behaving exactly as you would expect someone very friendly and seeking a relationship with business interests to act. quote:She wasn’t on my radar back in 2003, when she was a spokeswoman for the Green Party and dressed up in a pink tutu to protest the Iraq War. Or in 2011, when the Phoenix New Times named her its “Best Local Lefty Icon.” I still hadn’t heard of her in 2012, when she became the first openly bisexual woman to be elected to the House of Representatives, and embarked, shortly thereafter, on her journey from being one of the most liberal Democratic members of Congress to one of the most conservative. Or even in 2018, when she flipped a Republican-held Senate seat—telling staffers, according to Politico, that she wanted “to be the next John McCain.” quote:According to former staff, her elusiveness seems to fuel her myth. She famously avoids public town halls, and she has made almost no public statements about her objections to the Democrats’ bill, although news reports suggest that she opposes tax increases on corporations and the wealthy, as well as Medicare drug-pricing reform. (If this is true, then it’s a departure from her campaign messaging, which focussed on “Medicare improvements” and “lower prescription drug prices.”) quote:Also, as the political reporter Ryan Grim said, on “All In with Chris Hayes,” “That analytical framework doesn’t work, because so many other politicians who take corporate money aren’t behaving this way.” Then there’s the political crowd, who suggest that Sinema is doing what she thinks it takes in order to get reëlected in Arizona, a quirky state that is heavy on Republicans and Independents. But that theory has been weakened by the senator’s own statements—“Popularity is not my concern”—and by a recent poll of Arizona Democrats that showed her losing to any of her hypothetical primary opponents by more than thirty points. One wonders if she could be gearing up to leave the Party altogether. quote:In her 2009 book, “Unite and Conquer,” she recounts her journey from liberal “bomb thrower” to successful “coalition builder,” and offers tips for progressives who hope to follow in her footsteps. She advises them to put aside the “dread disease” of identity politics and to practice “the art of letting go” when it comes to their policy preferences. She also encourages them to “make friends with the other guys,” and tells a story about bonding with a right-wing construction lobbyist while she was in the Arizona state legislature. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/pick-me-girls-and-the-identity-politics-of-kyrsten-sinema Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jul 29, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:44
|
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:It's incredibly lovely for people to focus on that stuff when her garbage record speaks for itself, but she certainly makes choices to play right into that from time to time, like the curtsy thing or the Twitter pic of her drinking a fruity alcoholic beverage with her "gently caress you" ring front and center. But certainly the smart and cultured denizens of debate and discussion know better than to focus on weird personal quirks and instead talk about her consistent record of loving big Democratic bills that would enact supposed Democratic policy goals. Even then those are probably pretty calculated moves. She's doing epic poo poo for instagram and I assume the people who make up her base of donors and sincere supporters love her doing stuff like that. Plus it got her a lot of media coverage. The people who would hate her for the vote hated her more, but that doesn't matter. The people who liked that she blocked those entitled fast food workers from getting a pay raise loved it and heard about it nonstop. She also stole all the attention from the other people who voted to block it. She wants to be their AOC. I guess we'll see if it works. A big flaming stink posted:there is a degree of, well, ditzyness or empty-headed-ness being ascribed to sinema's actions that is very likely influenced by sexist tropes in our culture. Yeah, you don't really see Manchin getting called manic or dumb, except for explictly dumb (in the incorrect sense) statements. Sinema's moves make sense if she's just a corrupt rear end in a top hat. If you believe the leaks, then it follows the logic laid out there too. She's buying into the somewhat mainstream/media-pushed idea that what the country really needs and wants is a brave, centrist outsider who does their own thing  . I think she's wrong, but that doesn't really matter.
Parakeet vs. Phone fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jul 29, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:44
|
|
|
TheIncredulousHulk posted:Lol it's misogyny because she doesn't operate in a significantly different manner than Manchin and yet it must be a result of her being a dumb broad who somehow whoopsydoodled her way into the US Senate. If she were a man nobody would traffick this horseshit Manchin's situation is massively different. He has the full support of the very conservative West Virginia Democratic party, and he knows it. The DNC is powerless to do much of anything to him. His state is also not competitive, at all. Its a miracle to have a Democrat Senator from WV and he's going to have a rough path to re-election even if he tries to thread the moderate needle. His position and motivations are all easy to understand even if we don't like it. He's doing what he thinks he has to in order to win. Sinema is in a far more precarious situation. Voters in Arizona just have to look at Mark Kelly to know what could and should be. The Arizona Democratic party is prepared to try to end her career in 2024 if she doesn't get in line, and she either doesn't believe it or doesn't care. So, a primary challenge it will be, then. Her motivations are not easy to understand, and unless you think she's literally being paid off with bribes or that she doesn't care about being a Senator after 2024, then she appears to be nuts.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:49
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:General question to the thread: Because she either has an escape plan to jump ship to a board of directors for one or more of the corporations that donate to her, she's planning on doing the right-wing media circuit as a token Democrat (that's my bet just because she seems to like attention almost as much as Manchin but without a political future), or she's jumping ship to the Republicans/worked out some deal with Mitch early on where she backstabs the Democrats for some reward when she's out of office.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:49
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Sinema has literally described herself as "the pink tutu wearing pixie of Arizona progressive politics" back when she was in the State House and describes herself as funky and quirky. There have also been dozens of articles in major outlets about how she would only negotiate in private and one-on-one because she wanted to keep herself mysterious and give her room to maneuver on her positions without pinning herself down. The manic pixie dream girl is a sexist trope invented by a guy. She may describe herself as a tutu-wearing pixie but you’re invoking that trope when you call her a manic pixie dream girl (not the term she used) and enumerate the qualities you associate with that trope. I’m suggesting that people see sexism in the way she is discussed here because of this type of language and argumentation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:51
|
|
|
It doesn't seem like any kind of big mystery when practically naked corruption is the rule rather than the exception, and she is free to take whatever money she wants from whoever she wants, so long as there's no video evidence of her taking a bag of money with a comically large dollar sign on it while saying "I am taking this bribe for political favors." And if she's primaried she'll be able to work the cable news circuit and probably have her pick of do nothing "consulting" jobs for six figures, possibly from the same donors that dumped money into her political campaigns! We don't need to use scrying sticks or ouija boards to figure this poo poo out.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:53
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Manchin's situation is massively different. He has the full support of the very conservative West Virginia Democratic party, and he knows it. The DNC is powerless to do much of anything to him. His state is also not competitive, at all. Its a miracle to have a Democrat Senator from WV and he's going to have a rough path to re-election even if he tries to thread the moderate needle. His position and motivations are all easy to understand even if we don't like it. He's doing what he thinks he has to in order to win. Actually her motivations are very easy to understand. That you personally cannot or do not want to understand them and prefer to dismiss her as a ditzy broad who just woke up a senator one day doesn't make it true. That's simply you admitting you are easily confused and cannot perform your own analysis
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 03:59
|
|
|
TheIncredulousHulk posted:Actually her motivations are very easy to understand. Articulate them. Call me crazy, but I believe every Senator who has not announced their retirement wants to be re-elected and will prioritize their own re-election over everything else. I'm not going to just casually say or assume that she is planning a post-Senate life of cashing in on some vague and unexplained opportunity. If those opportunities even exist for her, how do they compare to the money and power of continuing to be a Senator?
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 04:04
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:The manic pixie dream girl is a sexist trope invented by a guy. She may describe herself as a tutu-wearing pixie but you’re invoking that trope when you call her a manic pixie dream girl (not the term she used) and enumerate the qualities you associate with that trope. I’m suggesting that people see sexism in the way she is discussed here because of this type of language and argumentation. That's fair. Manic pixie dream girl is a loaded term that I was using as short-hand. But, I think the overall point that she has intentionally cultivated a specific political brand over the last 20 years to emphasize that she is independent-minded, not your typical Democrat, and has a unique political style is still accurate and backed up by contemporary reporting from the early 2000's, interviews with staff, and her own book she published in 2009. She behaves pretty much like you would expect a Senator who is very friendly with business interests and looking to cultivate a political relationship with them would. She flavors her decisions with her brand and political sensibilities, but she isn't actually acting in a random or capricious way. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 29, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 04:12
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Manchin's situation is massively different. He has the full support of the very conservative West Virginia Democratic party, and he knows it. For the record there is a contingent of progressive WV Democrats (aligning with the "Justice Dems" movement) in the state legislature and in local positions that hate Manchin's guts but they are a minority of a minority and lack the money of the coal and gas companies so their hands are tied.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 04:12
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah this fits perfectly Yang Gang is back!!!! Yang Gang!!! Bitcoin! Centrism! Whipped CREAM! https://youtu.be/u3UfIPyRlrE Yang Gang!!!!! 🧢
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 04:27
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Articulate them. Position herself as an enigmatic independent outsider while also doing her best to service the monied interests that fund her. She's a US senator who's effectively dictating US congressional policy so it seems like she's doing something right(for her, not everyone else).
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 04:46
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Articulate them. I literally already did It is a little funny to see you just lay out in plain language that apparently the core of your "analysis" here is how closely a politician adheres to a universal rule that you invented based entirely on your own feelings. Nobody's going to call you crazy for it, just profoundly intellectually lazy. Perhaps you should consider for a second that, maybe, if this imaginary rule you made up is leading you to conclusions like "this US senator is actually a crazy idiot who got elected by accident" via shallow deduction that perhaps it is actually a problem with the imaginary rule you made up Since you are mysteriously incapable of coming up with post-office possibilities on your own but asked for help thinking of them, I'll suggest one possible avenue she might pursue. Ex-politicians with reasonable profiles can make orders of magnitude more money on the speech circuit than they do as active government officials. The annual salary of a US senator is $174k. Just pulling an example at random out of the air, but for instance, Joe Biden received $200k from a group of Pennsylvania Republicans to talk about what a good guy their House candidate was--and that was for a single speech. Or Janet Yellen, who was not even an elected official, made over $7 million during a 2 year break from the Fed by giving speeches to corporate banks. Obama was able to charge his yearly salary to give a single speech to Wall Street clients, and he gave 3 of them less than 6 months after leaving office. It is not a leap to suspect that Sinema, should she be swept from office by the vengeful wrath of the Arizonan people, could expect to command very large amounts of money in exchange for, say, single-handedly torpedoing a minimum corporate tax that would otherwise cost the most powerful corporations in the country hundreds of billions of dollars But no, she's probably just an idiot. You should just move to Arizona and primary her yourself, you'd be able to defeat her easily given how much smarter than her you are
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 04:47
|
|
|
Sinema sucks and won't be a senator post 2024. That's my hot take, now let's wait two years and see if I'm right.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 04:53
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah this fits perfectly Andrew Yang, leader(?) of (possibly) civilizing(?) forces(?)...? The man must have some kind of scat fetish because no one is that eager to repeatedly eat a whole plate of poo poo as he is every time he tries to run for office somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 05:33
|
|
|
Yang & co (who I'd note are two orgs principally drawing from Republicans) have an opinion piece in the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/07/27/forward-party-new-centrist-third/ The closest to policy statements from anywhere in the piece: quote:On guns, for instance, most Americans don’t agree with calls from the far left to confiscate all guns and repeal the Second Amendment, but they’re also rightfully worried by the far right’s insistence on eliminating gun laws. On climate change, most Americans don’t agree with calls from the far left to completely upend our economy and way of life, but they also reject the far right’s denial that there is even a problem. On abortion, most Americans don’t agree with the far left’s extreme views on late-term abortions, but they also are alarmed by the far right’s quest to make a woman’s choice a criminal offense.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 05:47
|
|
|
Honestly I'd also bet that sinema thinks she can weather a primary challenger because the mainstream party will fully support her against them when the furor dies down. Like hell, they moved heaven and earth for loving cueller, I can't call her crazy for such an assumption!
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 08:20
|
|
|
It's also possible that Sinema is just completely out of her depth on top of positioning herself to cash out. After her curtsy no vote and the backlash, she posted advertisements on political job boards trying to hire an advisor from advisor from Arizona.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 11:27
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:General question to the thread: Money, power, and fame. I have no idea what people find so confusing about this.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 11:57
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah this fits perfectly quote:Taylor acknowledged that third parties had failed in the past, but said: "The fundamentals have changed. When other third party movements have emerged in the past it’s largely been inside a system where the American people aren’t asking for an alternative. The difference here is we are seeing an historic number of Americans saying they want one." And that's why Ross Perot, Steve Forbes, and the American Libertarian Party are thriving today. If you wanted more representation instead of this vanity project you'd be investing in ranked choice voting reform or multimember districts but here we are. Also, they are doing the same old 3rd party schtick. Socially liberal but let's cut taxes to nothing type of group. It's been tried, it's not the calling card you think it is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 12:02
|
|
|
"We don't agree with the radical right's desire to put everyone of the wrong color in gas chambers for the purity of the master race, but we don't agree with the radical left screaming about it being an absolutely monstrous idea either." loving tools.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 12:26
|
|
|
I'm now positive that Sinema or someone is going to kill reconciliation. They have added back in the $35 cap on insulin to the reconciliation bill. The bill is getting significantly better than the original skinny version and I refuse to believe that something other than the worst case scenario will actually materialize out of this almost two year process. He also confirmed that the methane fee that Manchin was vehemently against in the original BBB has been added back in as part of a deal with Manchin to reform permitting requirements to allow faster construction on approved pipelines or gas leases. https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/1552745458539298816
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 14:11
|
|
|
The "NO SALT, NO DEAL" crew in the House have also found a hilarious way to back down while still claiming they stood firm: https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1552735281576550400 With the House clear, it looks like all eyes fall upon Sinema.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 14:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 03:51 |
|
|
Sephyr posted:They watched Trump poo poo all over darling media veteran John McCain for years and only loved him more for it. They don't give a toss. Right? Also the Purple Heart band aids they wore to mock John Kerry and in addition to the Swift boat ads. Booing a gay soldier at the RNC. Making light of Max Cleeland's war injuries during a Georgia election. Pretty sure more than a few republicans have taken cheap shots at Tammy Duckworth. They don't give a gently caress about the military or vets and I'm not sure how they managed to corral that label of the pro military party. It's mostly just platitudes and showing off by worshiping the national anthem and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2022 14:15
|
|
