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dwarfs are fine in campaign field battles siege battles pvp dwarfs are not fine in domination battles (because they are slower than nurgle)
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Jul 29, 2022 23:00
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 01:36 |
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They should give Dawi rhino armored transports to get around their slow waddle speed.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:01
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that one is one of my favorites but it's apparently poorly regarded? they end up in albion after taking the not-webway and hijinks ensue e: wow should have refreshed before posting. i'm talking about the gotrek and felix book with teclis
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Jul 29, 2022 23:02
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99pct of germs posted:Did Dwarfs ever have any kind of cavalry in the ancient editions? Say no to dwarf cav. I actually have a small suspicion that regular Dwarfs are going to counter Chaos Dwarfs, for some of the same reasons that High Elves tended to be good against Vampire Coast even when Coast was way overtuned due to almost certainly having longer ranged quality missile infantry (thunderers and quarrelers versus probably chaos dwarf blunderbuses and hobogoblin archers) and long ranged-accurate sniping artillery that can lay the smack down on the chorf artillery. Though that's possibly more of a land battle perspective, in domination the chaos dwarfs having some mobility, might give them the edge still if they just forego trying to compete in the missile department all together, the chaff might not be that good in dom for them right now as it's likely to be expendable*. *they need to have a look at that being the only prerequisite for lowered base capture weight for a unit type, as there's units like skinks that are super cheap, fast, with high model counts, that are not expendable and have full capture weight, while bretonnian men-at-arms do not. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 23:17
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AND LO THE CLOUDS PARTED AND I WAS RIGHT--if you look at PVP they aren't this bad but they're definitely bottom tier The problem is dawi infantry aren't allowed to be good because they're forced to rely on ranged but don't have any way of protecting said ranged pieces while the dynamic is broken by multiple other factions. It's a stupid hold over from TW1, long beards and iron breakers should be power houses. If you had ironbreakers with GW's, drake fire pistol variants, and grudge raker variants then you'd basically have dawi zharr infantry haha--but grudgerakers and drakefire pistols need to be included to stop the reliance on slayers. Grudgerakers would be very powerful short ranged weapons that'd tear lightly armored fliers and cav apart while drakefire pistols would be free company for dawi with fire damage but the most important thing is they'd be able to fire 360 on the move so no more fliers chilling above melee troops. Kislev is the template to follow, give dwarf warriors with GW's an axe throwing variant, give miners a pistol variant--there is no reason all dawi infantry shouldn't have ranged weapons beyond cost. The most effective dwarf units are not surprisingly blasting charge units.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:17
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Arghy posted:AND LO THE CLOUDS PARTED AND I WAS RIGHT--if you look at PVP they aren't this bad but they're definitely bottom tier The only reason dawi were rated poorly was their speed stat. You can not easily reinforce a 'take land' objective if you move too slow. That was all.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:23
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Twigand Berries posted:I'm going to say it's Valkia so if I'm right I can make a "looks like I was right" post about it I'm going to wildly speculate that it's actually the Changeling, and Vilitch was only ever being teased as a classic piece of Tzeentchian misdirection. (And also because the Changeling just sounds more fun if they give him the ability to steal the appearance and powers of opposing lords mid-battle.)
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Jul 29, 2022 23:24
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Third World Reagan posted:The only reason dawi were rated poorly was their speed stat. This is also true in campaign, the dwarf utter lack of any sort of mobile unit greatly dictates their playstyle, as they cannot effectively field a mobile reserve or attack unit. The enemy always has the mobility advantage and you are forced to try and deal with that, which is fine agains the AI when it's a bit thick, but really struggles against players and obviously is a real problem if you have to move your army around to specific areas.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:34
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Arghy posted:Kislev is the template to follow, give dwarf warriors with GW's an axe throwing variant, give miners a pistol variant--there is no reason all dawi infantry shouldn't have ranged weapons beyond cost. The most effective dwarf units are not surprisingly blasting charge units. What do you think blasting charges are? Have you never seen a Dwarf mp battle? Third World Reagan posted:The only reason dawi were rated poorly was their speed stat. Capture weights is still something they need to look at it in domination IMO. It might stand to be differentiated a bit further, and it's possible that its going to require some extra attention for an all-infantry army like the dwarfs. There's also the fact to consider that maybe it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to make them just a little bit faster, look at how much better Nurgle got in domination early on in WH3 when plaguebearers got a little speed buff (and they're still slower than most infantry). poo poo there's even justification for that in old tabletop, where Dwarfs actually weren't as slow as you might expect. Their base movement speed was really slow (3" compared to humans' 4" and IIRC elves' 5"). Tabletop also had a rule that a unit could march at double speed (which disallowed shooting and magic and such) whenever there wasn't an enemy unit within 12", so when armies got closer (or someone stuck a skirmisher or something speedy within 12" of your units) human infantry would slow down to 4" unless they were charging into combat which was double speed as well in early editions (though it may have become 2D6" in later ones). Dwarfs however had a special rule that they could always march, so in effect they were very rarely reduced to that 3" speed, and they could maneuver without having to find a target to charge at that 6" speed even when humans and elf infantry were reduced to 4" and 5" speeds respectively. So yeah, with Dwarfs, I feel like what you need to look into there is 1) do they really have to be that slow? Either look into giving them an across the board speed buff or maybe even think of a neat passive or other ability to reflect that old special rule 2) domination capture weights still require attention and differentiation. 3) goat cav is the coward's way out. If Dwarfs were to have any cavalry I think the only thing that might really be appropriate would be like a unit of rangers mounted on ponies.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:36
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Put in thunderbarges and let them do drop ship stuff like Starcraft Terrans. 2 units per barge. You can't change my mind.Arghy posted:The problem is dawi infantry aren't allowed to be good because they're forced to rely on ranged but don't have any way of protecting said ranged pieces while the dynamic is broken by multiple other factions. It's a stupid hold over from TW1, long beards and iron breakers should be power houses. If you had ironbreakers with GW's, drake fire pistol variants, and grudge raker variants then you'd basically have dawi zharr infantry haha--but grudgerakers and drakefire pistols need to be included to stop the reliance on slayers. Grudgerakers would be very powerful short ranged weapons that'd tear lightly armored fliers and cav apart while drakefire pistols would be free company for dawi with fire damage but the most important thing is they'd be able to fire 360 on the move so no more fliers chilling above melee troops. What other factions have 360 range fire on the move infantry that are also the holdiest anvil in the game? And Longbeards have a great weapon variant! Maybe they should fix Hammers to have a useful niche too, as those are supposed to be the Ironbreakers counterpart. ... and Ironbreakers already throw blasting charges! Look, Dawi need some flexibility in unit comp and options like they could get from a DLC/FLC lord or two and accompanying units, they don't need Ironbreakers to be a doomstack option. obligatory lol, lmao
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Jul 29, 2022 23:37
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Petition to rename each faction's Warshrines: Warshrine (WoC) Goreshrine Loreshrine Whoreshrine Sporeshrine
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Jul 29, 2022 23:39
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Just make them actually tanky in a way that other factions aren’t. Like a -X damage a hit modifier that can reduce those hits to 0. I think it’s fine if they are very slow so long as they are also almost impossible to shift off of a point once they have it.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:40
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Compare dwarfs to nurgle. Both are slow, dwarfs are slower. Nurgle gets access to nurgling vanguards which are amazing. Dwarfs get access to miners which are not. Nurgle gets a flying hero on a rotfly that is speedy Dwarfs need a doom wheel Nurgle gets some decent magic and army abilities that can slow Dwarfs have runemagic and it is not the best Both have a form of artillery and neither is too useful
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Jul 29, 2022 23:41
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Anno posted:Just make them actually tanky in a way that other factions aren’t. Like a -X damage a hit modifier that can reduce those hits to 0. I think it’s fine if they are very slow so long as they are also almost impossible to shift off of a point once they have it. The problem dwarfs have is getting to the point.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:43
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It's worth noting that a screen of blasting charge miners use to be like a staple of old land battle dwarf play. Thinking about it though, I feel like maybe you could get something interesting going if one re-imagined miners a bit, if they were retooled as more of a specialist unit rather than the "cheap unit".
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Jul 29, 2022 23:44
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Muscle Tracer posted:Petition to rename each faction's Warshrines:
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Jul 29, 2022 23:46
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Third World Reagan posted:The problem dwarfs have is getting to the point. Yeah but it’s not like they lose before they get to the points. There’s two minutes to waddle them out there. I just think holding points they take should be the thematically cool way to balance dwarf domination somehow.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:51
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Third World Reagan posted:Compare dwarfs to nurgle. My zany solution is my completely insane "encampment stance gives the defender a quasi settlement map that lets them dictate the flow of battle with access to basic (tier 1+2) structures" which dwarves would obviously have one of the better forms of with some tech support to juice them a bit, and AI tweaking to make them more likely to come at the dwarves. Honestly a ton of issues could be solved just by giving the player some control over the map they end up on. If dwarves can hold gaps/chokepoints, or have fallback positions or at least a good hill to setup on, they tend to do pretty well. Getting a poo poo map drawn REALLY hurts them though. They just have a ton of compounding issues that at the root level is just how slow they are, and they need to be properly compensated for it. I like a map based approach because they can still get caught out (ambushes hurt bad, marching through forest is still gonna generally suck, getting attacked in march stance should mean you have less or no choice, etc), while generally being able to expect to be able to use their units if they are smart about how they setup. Dwarves should be the slow and methodical, pick their battlefields carefully faction.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:51
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TaintedBalance posted:Honestly a ton of issues could be solved just by giving the player some control over the map they end up on. I'd love the "initial" map to actually be a 3x3 grid of possible maps, and with certain stances or leader skills you get to choose which one is THE map.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:55
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All I'm saying is that anyone who actually cares about MP balance is wrong about life.
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Jul 29, 2022 23:59
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Anno posted:Yeah but it’s not like they lose before they get to the points. There’s two minutes to waddle them out there. I just think holding points they take should be the thematically cool way to balance dwarf domination somehow. This can never work in domination though. If you have a faction that takes one point and holds it forever, fine, I take two. Now what? Do the dwarves waddle their entire death ball over to another point? I take their first point. Do they split their army? They're not indomitable anymore, I destroy half of their army and now they're further in the hole, or hell, I destroy the other half and take the points I want. If the Dwarves make a ranged death ball in the center that's got loads of holes for pvp minded players to dismantle it. A lot of turtle commanders fall apart when their enemy thinks. Domination is a very frenzied duel of the minds. Which is why the mode works and is pretty fun. It requires a lot of good match up and judgement calls and army flexibility in composition, reinforcements prepared, when to summon them, where they go, etc... a tactical tour de force. Nurgle used to be seen as weak because it was like... yeah, they take the point, they hold it well, but they're fat and slow and you just split them if they split or out-move them if they waddle. Nurgle players learned how to make use of their "fast" 50 speed units, their great hero options, and to start sending plaguebearers or nurglings out to snipe, whether a long distance five moves ahead judgement or just a great vanguard option that has a good match up against other T1s and even some T2s, and if nothing else can stall well and do carry weight.
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Jul 30, 2022 00:04
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Anno posted:Yeah but it’s not like they lose before they get to the points. There’s two minutes to waddle them out there. I just think holding points they take should be the thematically cool way to balance dwarf domination somehow. they lose because they can't win the fight fast enough nor reinforce the points before the enemy can power walk reinforcements over
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Jul 30, 2022 00:05
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Make Dwarf infantry not be super slow. Pump those dwarven legs. There's justification in the tabletop rules and they did already did this for plaguebearers.
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Jul 30, 2022 00:07
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Maybe they could make mobility a limited resource for Dwarves, like they can get +20 speed for 20 seconds as a one charge bound spell. Call it Pump Those Dwarven Legs. Even Slayers could get it, would be an interesting tactical decision for when to gun it and make a big move.
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Jul 30, 2022 00:10
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You could do fancy stuff, though to start with I don't think it'd be a horrible idea to just boost them up to human speeds more or less, with slayers actually ending up pretty fast. Another thematic thing for Dwarfs I feel and one which would help them in staying power (which is not a problem for them, but just keep at boosting that IMO) in some ways would be vigor boosts/regeneration. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Jul 30, 2022 |
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Jul 30, 2022 00:15
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I mentioned this in the discord but one thing I want to see happen, especially because it opens up new functionality in the game proper if they can pull it off, is actually making Dwarf Miners start battles in reserve and be able to burst out of the ground, ambush style, in the middle of the battle through activated abilities. In tabletop, Dwarf Miners actually shared statlines with Dwarf Warriors, meaning that they were a legitimate threat instead of the glorified militia they are right now.
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Jul 30, 2022 00:53
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Dwarf miners purchased as reinforcements should dig up from nearly anywhere like the menace below. Dwarf miners in your regular army being held in reserve and being summoned mid battle would also be cool as hell.
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Jul 30, 2022 00:54
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Is there a goon discord?
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Jul 30, 2022 00:55
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Gonkish posted:All I'm saying is that anyone who actually cares about MP balance is wrong about life. ...no
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Jul 30, 2022 01:15
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why are redditors so mad that these 4 chaos lords are gonna be warriors of chaos? thats how they were on the tabletop.
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Jul 30, 2022 01:23
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I can kinda, sorta see it for Valkia and Azazel? While being born mortal, they are currently both extremely powerful and prominent daemons (well...Valkia is at least), so it kinda intuitively makes sense they would be leading daemon armies instead of warriors of chaos. I got nothing for Festus and Villitch. 
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Jul 30, 2022 01:35
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juggalo baby coffin posted:why are redditors so mad juggalo baby coffin posted:redditors
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Jul 30, 2022 01:37
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Are they still mad? I feel like the general reaction to the blog today was "oh ok that I get that then".
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Jul 30, 2022 01:37
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I tuned in for a bit and they mentioned that they haven’t streamed or tested many ogre matchups because there’s a bug with ogre bulls where it looks like their heads are permanently exploded and there’s just chunks all over. I wish they streamed more ogre matchups 
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Jul 30, 2022 01:39
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Valkia isn't a Daemom
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Jul 30, 2022 01:43
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can confirm that dwarves being super slow completely dictated my campaign playthrough. Every army had to have at least 4 units of artillery cause if I had to march my slow rear end to the enemy, id lose every fight. They should make a dwarf LL that cant field artillery, thatd be a great challenge Now im playing Taurox and getting a ton of whiplash cause the armies im fielding are like the exact opposite of the dwarves. Super fast and surprisingly killy with their charges, but no staying power at all and completely vacuous ranged options. Its a ton of fun and I think I prefer the faster and reactive armies compared to the kill boxes I was setting up with the dwarves
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Jul 30, 2022 01:45
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Yeah that's basically why I wound up loving brettonia
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Jul 30, 2022 01:47
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Anno posted:Are they still mad? I feel like the general reaction to the blog today was "oh ok that I get that then". The number of mad people has simultaneously grown smaller and louder.
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Jul 30, 2022 01:49
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I have never done well with cav in any Total War game even tho I know they are super good in a ton of scenarios so I never tried Brettonia. Might give them a shot if they are kinda similar to this beastmen playthrough Im just really bad at micro cause I love to zoom in and turn off the UI to watch the fighting
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Jul 30, 2022 01:50
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 01:36 |
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AnEdgelord posted:Valkia isn't a Daemom I believe this is exactly why many are looking forward to her, actually. My murderous daemommy. 
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Jul 30, 2022 01:52
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