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JimmyBiskit posted:Really? I thought it was easier overall even without grinding up to 16. So long as I kept up the stat buffs from the meat haunches on Pogo and abused the Wait function (not pass, since wait just slowly ticks the action bars as opposed to advancing to whenever the next character's turn would be) I was pretty reliably able to attempt to cancel the global explosion and/or cancel lava tile heals before the boss got much of anything from it. In the remake, King Mammoth will just randomly decide not to get hit by anything. He seems to have something like a 60+% chance to dodge unless you have an accuracy buff, and even that only improves your chances of hitting to roughly one in three. Before I just decided to grind to 16, I'd have battles where I'd throw everything I had at him to try interrupting him, and literally all of it would miss, with the meat buff. Just completely unreasonable evasion.
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Aug 2, 2022 19:40
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Live A Live: The game that will make you glad mammoths went extinct.
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Aug 2, 2022 19:45
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i also found it an easier fight in this version, visible charge meters and the game not lying to you about how much fire tiles heal him made things a lot more immediately manageable
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Aug 2, 2022 20:51
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Went and started the Twilight of Edo Japan chapter (I'll probably just call it Edo Japan in the future) and called the player character, Gekkomaru cause I like naming people when given the chance. I'll probably won't do the 0 kills and 100 kills routes, probably just kill whenever if it's necessary and for grinding reasons.
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Aug 2, 2022 21:55
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king mammoth isn't too bad as long as you stick to a consistent strat of removing the fire tiles and healing/buffing with gori + only attacking with pogo when he has an accuracy buff up. (you know those 30 haunches of meat that are just sitting in your inventory? use them!) it's an annoying bullshit fight but there's no reason you can't consistently win.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:09
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After the two hard-won but cola-bottle-less victories I had managed before that last post I went and ground the team up to Lv 16 and managed three more slightly irritating but fairly snappy wins and now I have beaten all of the superbosses. There's a Theory at work here, I'll give them that. There are signs of an intended system of threats and counters. There are, when you lay it out, a ton of good options for actually engaging with the guy. It's just, the combination of the two moves that carpet things in fire, his sky-high evasion even when you've got buffed accuracy, and the end-result inconsistency of how the tile timers work makes for a lot of surprise misery. Also, it is transparently bullshit that he can stack nine fire tiles worth of healing but if there's nine poison tiles underneath him only two of them count. Come on. I can only hope it's not the intended approach to grind to 16 and lean on Pogo's ultimate. I feel like King Mammoth is pretty close to optimal superboss territory where you can effectively keep things stable while whittling him down and managing your defences. It's just, way, waaay too much seems to hinge on getting lucky with his evasion, because it can more or less randomly ruin your otherwise correct management decisions and compound into reversing a ton of damage. (If I was speccing out the combat engine, my approach to tile procs would be a per element per character meter that fills up from zero in response to standing on a tile and the proc happens on that character when it fills up. It needn't actually be visible. This way there is a consistent burn rate, so to speak. I would actually make the damage number completely flat but multiply the fill rate by the number of tiles the unit is standing on, so King Mammoth wouldn't recover hundreds of HP but instead recover 24 every tick or so and your task is to cut it off before he recovers a meaningful amount, so the fire attacks remain appropriately stressful and will be disastrous if you dawdle but microscopic errors and chance can't completely gently caress you and you can make more considered tactical tradeoffs if you have something really important to do before he heals.)
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Aug 2, 2022 22:52
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mammoth king is very evasive but i got a lot of mileage out of crafting prickly stones, which create lightning tiles for some reason and do noticeably more damage than poison over the course of the battle (and can be used by either character, critically). pogo's ultimate can do a lot of damage but it's so unreliable and the debuffs so severe it's probably my least favorite ultimate attack lol
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Aug 2, 2022 23:03
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Is there any way to figure out which stats affect which moves? Like I've been going on the assumption that Physical Attack affects the first seven damage types and Special Attack the remaining seven, but I'm not sure that holds 100%, let alone which moves are buffed by Physical Defense or Speed. Also 20 save slots is too few. Do you not gain anything from keeping clear data saves from previous chapters so long as you have a later save that includes it? I kind of figured it mattered since each chapter's saves appear in the select menu.
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Aug 3, 2022 19:33
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Also 20 save slots is too few. Do you not gain anything from keeping clear data saves from previous chapters so long as you have a later save that includes it? I kind of figured it mattered since each chapter's saves appear in the select menu. No, you can just keep saving over your old one. I did my 100% playthrough with a single save slot that way.
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Aug 3, 2022 19:38
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I've only ever kept 1 save. You need to rebeat the chapter for any changes to carry forward, such as if you reloaded the prehistoric chapter to fight the superboss.
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Aug 3, 2022 19:39
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Also 20 save slots is too few. Do you not gain anything from keeping clear data saves from previous chapters so long as you have a later save that includes it? I kind of figured it mattered since each chapter's saves appear in the select menu. You do not. You only really need four save slots: A pre-final chapter save where each of the three inheritors is an option, and one pre-Oersted save where you can still access and replay the other chapters.
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Aug 3, 2022 19:43
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EclecticTastes posted:You do not. You only really need four save slots: A pre-final chapter save where each of the three inheritors is an option, and one pre-Oersted save where you can still access and replay the other chapters. you can still access the other chapters at any time now
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Aug 3, 2022 20:17
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Is there any way to figure out which stats affect which moves? Like I've been going on the assumption that Physical Attack affects the first seven damage types and Special Attack the remaining seven, but I'm not sure that holds 100%, let alone which moves are buffed by Physical Defense or Speed. Pretty much experimentation and trial and error. The move types don't determine it, either. A bunch of grappling attacks from Masaru's chapter are all physical but Wise Fox's Grace is labeled as a grappling attack and it definitely scales off Special, that's why the Shifu hits so much harder with it than any of his students do.
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Aug 3, 2022 20:24
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Yeah it's kind of a shame that for every bit of effort to be transparent with mechanics in this game the stats are kind of difficult to interpret still.
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Aug 3, 2022 21:00
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Progressing through the Edo Japan chapter quite nicely. Oboro very quickly becomes a powerful character and, personally, is better at doing AOE attacks than Akira. I like the Near Future and I like Akira but I feel the combat there, after having very fun combat in this chapter, is a bit of a pain due to enemies that are severely resistant to Akira's attacks requiring the help of your teammates which I guess is the point but it does get tedious after a while. In comparison, after a bit of leveling, Oboro gets really good attacks that dish some damage and will easily wipe out enemies. Sorry for the mini-rant that deviated on what I was gonna say but I guess I was going with is that Akira's chapter really should've tone down the difficulty or made him a bit stronger. Anyway, murdered the gently caress out of Shiro Amakusa in three hits and he didn't do anything before that.
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Aug 3, 2022 21:22
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I had to go back and beat up the secret bosses I missed. Surprisingly didn't have too much trouble with the King Mammoth, but granted that's only because I was prepared by strategy tidbits from this thread, and also I am totally satisfied beating it once even though I didn't get the drop. Did it at level 13. It did bust out some back-to-back healing at one point, but that was balanced out by me managing to stick paralysis on it a few times. The ones in Edo Japan kinda kicked my rear end a bit, but I was able to get a working strategy going after a couple tries. One of them took a lot of items, though.
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Aug 4, 2022 02:43
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Distant Future, and by extension the first seven campaigns, done! kinda surprised by how things ended up with the behemoth, figured for sure you’d be getting equipment together to give Cube combat equipment to kill it instead of going into a video game for a super anticlimactic boss fight that just kinda dies after looking at it funny. I can see how it might not be very fun to do that in the SFC version since even if there’s a map like the remake there’s no helpful story marker. Anything that can vary? Never found the memory card, are all the crew deaths/incapacitations set in stone?
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Aug 4, 2022 07:36
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Last Celebration posted:Distant Future, and by extension the first seven campaigns, done! kinda surprised by how things ended up with the behemoth, figured for sure you’d be getting equipment together to give Cube combat equipment to kill it instead of going into a video game for a super anticlimactic boss fight that just kinda dies after looking at it funny. I can see how it might not be very fun to do that in the SFC version since even if there’s a map like the remake there’s no helpful story marker. For some ungodly reason that boss was nerfed hard in the remake and its counterheal gimmick (that can be circumvented by analyzing it, but which turns it into a strong attack counter) was replaced with a dinky little attack counter. Captain Square is nerfed too. There's a bunch of places where the game is easier now but Distant Future is the most notable of what I've seen. Plot is always the same but there are minor variations in plot flow depending on where you go first, and some logs/conversations that are only available right before you give the final coffee. And an extra scene for clearing Captain Square while Kirk is still there!
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Aug 4, 2022 10:02
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That’s a shame, maybe they figured a section with no mandatory combat that theoretically could be your first scenario (not terribly unrealistic assuming you’re going in reverse chronological order) shouldn’t have a boss that’s that hard, but I just used the Maser Gun like twice and it was over so they definitely went too far in the other direction if it was originally a puzzle fight like the rest of Captain Square.
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Aug 4, 2022 12:20
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Uhh, she will still counter-heal if you attack her from very far away, but if you're in range she will counter-attack instead. Feels like the trick to the whole thing.
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Aug 4, 2022 13:07
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I don't know if I just lucked out through the encounter, but I took away that Cube can absolutely throw down if they need to, they just choose not to because they have rejected violence. also imagining Kato's exact thought process as he made his cuddly little helper robot 90% Maser Cannon by volume is fun. It's a fine capstone imo
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Aug 4, 2022 13:15
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I don't know if I just lucked out through the encounter, but I took away that Cube can absolutely throw down if they need to, they just choose not to because they have rejected violence. also imagining Kato's exact thought process as he made his cuddly little helper robot 90% Maser Cannon by volume is fun. It's a fine capstone imo If you were making a robot, any robot, and you had the option to include a giant laser cannon, wouldn't you? Like, I could be building a goddamn Roomba and if I found out I could work a laser cannon into the design, no force on Earth would stop me.
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Aug 4, 2022 13:57
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So I got the Mimic Mammet (AKA O-Robo) and unfortunately for me, I haven't realized that my initial plan on getting the upgraded shoes (the pun one) won't be possible since it involves trapdoors and would lead to O-Robo dying. So I gonna go do the Secret Bosses (at least the one that gives you a nice weapon first) before getting rid of him in order to get the shoes. First, I need to level which is a bit slow since the only reliable source of EXP is the respawnable ghosts and when you're a high enough level, it gives you a tiny amount. Currently at level 13 for Oboro. Edit: Killed Ryunosuke and got Muramasa! He hosed up my companions but Oboro didn't get hit which is good. Guess I should go and take on the big-rear end fish after I get rid of O-Robo and probably get the shoes. Pyro Jack fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 14:09
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ehat the gently caress, on top of all the other poo poo there’s secret shoes? That I’m guessing absorb a lot of elemental tiles? What else does this one section have?
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Aug 4, 2022 14:39
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They absorb all the tiles. They are also way more obscure than the other secrets, even the second optional boss. If there's anything worse, I haven't heard of it.
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Aug 4, 2022 14:42
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That is a secret I didn't know about, huh
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Aug 4, 2022 14:45
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:They absorb all the tiles. They are also way more obscure than the other secrets, even the second optional boss. If there's anything worse, I haven't heard of it. In fairness, the hole you need to drop down to find them is right next to another chest a player would really want to get to, since it contains the Genji Armor, so it seems like it's meant as a consolation of sorts for players who stumble down that hole when trying to open the chest. The mini-puzzle involved in collecting the shoes just adds a bit of challenge, which helps drive home for the player that they found something super cool and special.
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Aug 4, 2022 14:47
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Arrrthritis posted:I didn't realize until after I finished it that the blue wisps you see in the dungeon are interactable and The spirits of everyone from Lucrece, and Akira can read their minds to see what they think of current events. Highly recommend people go through it just to see what Hasshe, Streighbow, Uranus, and Alethea think of the current situation I think my second-favourite moment of that entire chapter (other than the ending) was Streighbow's ghost going "hmm, I wonder if maybe this was all partly my fault". This is a really good remake in general. The additions like QOL features and slightly expanded dialogue help to flesh out the game and make it a smoother experience without fundamentally changing what it is. Thuryl fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 14:59
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So about medieval chapter stuff: I like the performances in this remake but in the old one and in the remake I've been confused about some of the details about the whole chapter. Streibough didn't formulate his plan to betray Oersted until after defeating the fake dark lord right? I'm kinda wondering about stuff like why there was a fake dark lord if Streibough didn't orchestrate the whole thing. Is that just unexplained? Also I kinda wonder why the princess was so ready to ride or die for Streibough. I think the dialogue suggested that Oersted knew how Streibough felt about her and refused to take the L anyway, and I guess it might be implied that she had at least some sort of relationship with him before the tournament, otherwise it just seems real weird to be like "I will knife myself over this man who showed up out of nowhere, took second, told me he loved me, and then betrayed his best friend and got some honored heroes killed over it". Not that I think it needs any super deep explanation to make the story work, I think the story of "what if the hero didn't get his happy ending" bit is fine and I'm willing to meet it halfway on some of the details or vague bits, but some of the story beats stick in my head.
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Aug 4, 2022 16:07
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Finished the Edo Japan chapter. It was alot of fun despite my initial thoughts that it would be difficult and I would require a guide to do it but I mainly used one to get all of the secret stuff. Oboro was really fun to play as and I easily shredded all of the bosses with a few hits or even a single hit outside of the secret bosses. Freed Goemon after getting everything I could get in chests so I can get them again, including Muramasa solely just to flex I guess. I decided to go with sticking to being a Shinobi at the ending, I'll join up with Ryoma if I ever want to do a no-kill run. Oh yeah, my kill count was 67, I guess my regret is not killing two more people. Now the only chapters left is the distant past and the distant future. Time to go back, way back in the time where cavemen, mammoths and poop-throwing apes ruled the world. Pyro Jack fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 16:10
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Glagha posted:So about medieval chapter stuff: One big thing the game never says out loud but I think is fair to conclude is that "The Dark Lord" was never any one individual. It wasn't a fake Dark Lord or one of his minions, like Hasshe assumed, it was just a different guy. You did kill the guy who had taken up the Archon's Roost and kidnapped Alethea. The chapter's conclusion makes it very clear that anyone can take up the mantle of Odio, Lord of Darkness. I was confused about this plot point as well, but it all comes together if it turns out that Hasshe was just plain wrong. He and we assumed that the Dark Lord was some Ganondorf-type individual who cannot be killed, only sealed away, but there is nothing to indicate that this is the case. He and Uranus killed their dark lord, and then helped you kill Ørsted's, those were different dudes, both were Odio, and both are now dead and gone. Neither of them had any relation to Streibough or Ørsted, who took up the mantle after slaying their predecessor. I don't think the game ever establishes if Alethea and Streibough had a pre-existing relationship or if they literally only got to know each other after the kidnapping. I'm of the former read, but can't say the latter is specifically untrue. We don't know how much Ørsted knew because it's not important, what matters is that he didn't care. He did the heroics, he won the tournament, he gets to marry the princess, that's how this works. I remember being really frustrated with the intro of the chapter, because her voice actress is oozing with apprehension at marrying this total stranger, and since Ørsted is a silent protagonist, we never get any sort of elaboration on it. That was absolutely on purpose, because she does eventually make clear that she never wanted to marry Ørsted and all her words to the contrary were just her trying to serve her duties as a princess and hoping she could grow into it. Ørsted even has a specific line lamenting that he did what he was told and expected only his just reward, while considerations of Streibough and Alethea's feelings do not enter into his mind. Most people seem to come away thinking that Streibough is obviously the locus of the Middle Ages bad poo poo, but I think the King deserves a lot of the credit. He obviously never considered his daughter's feelings, because both politics and tropes dictated that she marry whoever he thought was cool. If he had allowed her to be more than a prize to be won (Disney's Aladdin came out two years prior to this game), none of this would have gone down the way it did. E: Also, on a broader note relating to stuff before and after that: the whole "Odio is not a Ganondorf" is pretty much the overarching plot of the game. O. Dio, OD-10, Ode Iou and the others have nothing in common other than a hatred of the world that spawned them, and they, like the various dark lords of the middle ages, took up the mantle of Odio in their own eras. Assuming that evil is some kind of individual that you can just kill and then everything's sunshine and rainbows is exactly what made Hasshe and Ørsted fail to become the kind of hero your final chapter protagonist would grow into. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 16:44
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They absolutely had an existing romance of some kind. Almost all of her opening dialogue is her trying to convince both herself and osty that she is okay with suddenly being wed to another. It is framed at first like her being romantic but the actual dialogue is exclusively her going 'okay I guess this is my life now.'
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Aug 4, 2022 17:00
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i got the impression the tournament wasn't for the throne until oersted advanced to the finals, because he's an established warrior and the king at least was pretty enamored with him
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Aug 4, 2022 17:08
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I guess actually the chain of events could be that she did okay marrying the champion because Streibough had advanced to the finals and they had assumed he could win with the power of love, or that Ørsted knew their business and would gracefully throw the match for their friendship, or even that Streibough had explicitly begged him to let him win, depending on who you want to read as culpable. I think the intended reading is that no one individual was the big bad guy and everyone including Ørsted played a part in the inevitable conclusion, so this point is deliberately never elaborated on. Except Uranus of course, dude was the actual hero of the story all along.
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Aug 4, 2022 17:21
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:both were Odio I would actually argue a very different interpretation of how things go down regarding demon lords and Odio, though this is based entirely on the SNES version. I would say neither demon lord was Odio, that while Hasshe was wrong in assuming the new aspiring demon lord was a fake (he definitely wasn't the same demon, but he was probably trying to claim the title), that Odio is something different, something that requires powerful hatred to bring forth. Oersted's transcendent hatred caused him to, rather than becoming an indirect reflection of Odio (as all the other bosses are), instead become a true incarnation, hence "Pure Odio" being his final boss form. This is also how he's able to lend assistance to the other incarnations through the stone statues and drag the heroes to his domain from across time and space; he's harnessing more of the power Odio (or rather, whoever bears that title) can wield. This is also shown in the bosses themselves; each of the chapter bosses, rather than bearing that overwhelming "end the world" hatred, are instead more limited, mere facets of the true Odio that Oersted embodies, each with motives driven by hatred, but not as all-encompassing as Oersted's universe-threatening temper tantrum.
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Aug 5, 2022 02:29
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^Yeah, that's a fair view, though I feel a bit odd about the specific term incarnation, because that implies that Odio is some kind of tangible individual entity you can invite into your body, rather than something more abstract. I'd call it an "embodiment" of Odio, and I realize that etymologically that's the exact same word, but I at least associate incarnation with the act of embodying a conscious external spirit. Also on an entirely unrelated note, replaying the Edo Japan chapter and managed to recruit the Prisoner and finally met the pentagram boss that showed up in the intro and just never appeared on my pacifist playthrough, and I've managed to kill both superbosses and am at Ode Iou's doorstep with a kill count of 0 so far. There appears to be no way to avoid killing his bodyguards, because the Prisoner is with me and can't do his heroic rescue. Unless I'm missing something it is total bullshit that rescuing the prisoner makes pacifist impossible, but only forces you to get kills at the very end of the chapter. I am beginning to understand the complaints.
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Aug 5, 2022 18:51
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The 100 kills route has its own big gotcha with the woman who only appears to give you a reward if you didn't kill any women up until that point late in the chapter, like, after the first fight with Ode Iou late. If you killed any women up until that point she never shows up and your 100 kills run is forfeit, and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING telling you this will happen other than already having done a run where you don't kill any women (And even then, her dialogue doesn't make it super obvious what she's rewarding you for). There's some other smaller gotchas too, like if you entered the castle dungeon from the moat it is entirely possible you'll rescue the Prisoner for real in the cell that takes you to Amakusa before you have a chance to encounter the Prisoner's imposter in one of the dungeon cells who is one of the 100 kills and he'll disappear.
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Aug 5, 2022 21:12
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:^Yeah, that's a fair view, though I feel a bit odd about the specific term incarnation, because that implies that Odio is some kind of tangible individual entity you can invite into your body, rather than something more abstract. I'd call it an "embodiment" of Odio, and I realize that etymologically that's the exact same word, but I at least associate incarnation with the act of embodying a conscious external spirit. I think of Odio as something similar to the concept of the Buddha, where they're at once both a sort of vague ideal that can be referred to as an individual, and also something anyone can become by reaching a certain mental/spiritual state. In fact, Odio is kind of the opposite of the Buddha, conceptually, in that a person who becomes Odio is about as far from the ideals of Buddhist enlightenment as possible. Also, the ninja chapter is sort of deliberately tricky, likely intended to increase replay value by challenging players to find a way to go for either zero or 100 kills. If either were easy to pull off, I don't think it would have been as interesting.
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Aug 5, 2022 22:21
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EclecticTastes posted:I think of Odio as something similar to the concept of the Buddha, where they're at once both a sort of vague ideal that can be referred to as an individual, and also something anyone can become by reaching a certain mental/spiritual state. In fact, Odio is kind of the opposite of the Buddha, conceptually, in that a person who becomes Odio is about as far from the ideals of Buddhist enlightenment as possible. Okay, yeah, then we agree, and that is a really apt comparison. E: And I thought the ninja chapter was easy to pull off because I managed to stumble into the correct order of events on my first try. I am only now learning what happens if you deviate from that!
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Aug 5, 2022 22:32
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 13:05 |
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Truxton posted:The 100 kills route has its own big gotcha with the woman who only appears to give you a reward if you didn't kill any women up until that point late in the chapter, like, after the first fight with Ode Iou late. If you killed any women up until that point she never shows up and your 100 kills run is forfeit, and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING telling you this will happen other than already having done a run where you don't kill any women (And even then, her dialogue doesn't make it super obvious what she's rewarding you for). That one's completely mistranslated in English for some reason, because she's blatantly thanking and rewarding you for not killing any women. And you never "helped" her earlier either so it's doubly confusing how or why they messed this line up.
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Aug 6, 2022 14:32
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