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Ben Nerevarine posted:The sheer quantity of ingots and some lower level materials you’ll need for pretty much anything beyond the trivial make them… not ideal for transport by train. This, except the exact opposite. Trains are the solution for high throughput transport.
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Aug 1, 2022 15:59
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Well this is how I learned I’ve been thinking of trains wrong for a long time
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Aug 1, 2022 16:19
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Klyith posted:So a thing with train platforms is that they halt I/O while* loading or unloading a train car. If you have multiple trains hitting a station at rapid intervals, you problem is probably that the platform is frozen 90% of the time. There is that, and it obviously affects throughput, but at this point it's just that I'm moving screws and wires on the same two freight platforms and... welp. The whole thing is doable, travel-wise, from a singular metal products factory (which is flawlessly served by its own ingot train line) but the screws and wires are constantly butting heads. I suspect it's due to a combination of variable stack sizes, car position being important, and the mk5 belt speed. The wire takes a while to drain, so the screws take a while to drain, so the wire... repeat forever. It never gets to saturate into the buffer because the drain speed is just too slow. I could add more cars (and freight platforms) to increase this, but then I need to also account for all the trains that don't need X cars worth of Y. I went on to make a modest Motor factory, with two ins and one out, and that'll never have this problem. Excess is sunk, buffers are in place, and the train can sit there as long as it wants affecting nothing. In reality it drains fast enough to not be an issue, but that's the advantage of single-part plants. I could run a dedicated Stator train and Rotor train but adding another train is meaningless when it's all still deadlocked at platform transfer speed. Ben Nerevarine posted:Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but how many rotors/stators are you producing? Not much, just a target of 48/min Rotors and 105/min Stators. It's a very small factory. The logistics issue is feeding that factory on (effectively) two belts 32 slots at a time. The rotation is Wire+Rods, 2*Screws, 2*Pipes. The Wire and Screws wind up holding up a platform as they drain. It'd all be a solved problem if I could tell a train to only grab X amount of a resource, but it's all or nothing. Klyith posted:Hard disagree -- trains can transport a gently caress-ton of stuff, you just have to scale your trains appropriately to the quantity of stuff. OP's problem is probably because they're using small trains and 1 small station for a big train job. I haven't touched drones yet (so I'm completely going on dumb assumptions, here) as it sounds like you'll need trains to transport a steady battery supply line to keep the drones fed... at which point why am I not using trains for the goods instead. I suppose you could use more drones to feed the batteries for the drones but then it sounds like you're building an N+1 transit drone network and still need a (bigger) battery source.
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Aug 1, 2022 17:30
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Mailer posted:There is that, and it obviously affects throughput, but at this point it's just that I'm moving screws and wires on the same two freight platforms and... welp. The whole thing is doable, travel-wise, from a singular metal products factory (which is flawlessly served by its own ingot train line) but the screws and wires are constantly butting heads. I suspect it's due to a combination of variable stack sizes, car position being important, and the mk5 belt speed. The wire takes a while to drain, so the screws take a while to drain, so the wire... repeat forever. Oooooh. Well, there's your problem. Wire and especially screws are the "absolutely do not transport" items, because they will absolutely jam the belt outputs like you're seeing. The train itself is fine because it moves whole stacks, but even 2 mk5 belts is kinda a choke. Ship precursor items that you turn into wire or screws, produce them locally. Secondly, mixed products in any container (storage container, train platform, truck station, etc) are a bit tricky. A belt draining a container picks from the bottom-right-most slot. It picks from that slot until it finishes a stack, or a new stack appears in slot that's more bottom-right. So containers tend to inherently sort products, and if more things are being delivered it can amplify the sorting. So you only want to do that if you can drain complete stacks pretty quickly relative to the fill rate. Wire and screws are the worst because you're only draining 1 & 1/2 stacks per minute, even with mk5 belt. So if you get a screw delivery and then the wire train comes less than 45 seconds later, you will get no wire -- the station still has every slot full, there's no space for wire. Mixing them is the worst case scenario. Mailer posted:I haven't touched drones yet (so I'm completely going on dumb assumptions, here) as it sounds like you'll need trains to transport a steady battery supply line to keep the drones fed... at which point why am I not using trains for the goods instead. I suppose you could use more drones to feed the batteries for the drones but then it sounds like you're building an N+1 transit drone network and still need a (bigger) battery source. Only one of a pair of drone ports needs batteries, which makes things much easier. If you went all drones in a big way you'd definitely want a central hub-and-spoke design with battery production in the hubs.
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Aug 1, 2022 18:06
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Man, the day they implement filo for storage can't come soon enough
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Aug 1, 2022 19:16
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Klyith posted:Only one of a pair of drone ports needs batteries, which makes things much easier. If you went all drones in a big way you'd definitely want a central hub-and-spoke design with battery production in the hubs. I guess in the final scenario, where I'm just producing the phase3+4 components, I could drone deliver stuff to a centralized repository then drone them over to the elevator. That just depends on how much of a pain battery production is going to be then. Agreed that Wire+Screws is the source of my pain. Given there's no recipe that actually requires both I seem to have stumbled into the worst possible combo on my first attempt at running real distributed production. I figured the trains would be slower (because of course I didn't time it) to deliver.  Watermelon Daiquiri posted:Man, the day they implement filo for storage can't come soon enough All the logistical decisions on trains (platform matching, lilo pulling, full platform pulls only, one-way freight, etc) are either explicit gameplay challenges or something that really needs to be dealt with. Assuming they don't go the teleporting conveyors route and keep with trains as the top tier transport option it'd be really nice to have them smarter, with smaller station footprints, and better (possibly auto-supporting) track laying. As convenient as skyrail is to implement it's still really janky.
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Aug 2, 2022 03:54
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is it possible to build a railway UNDER the map? Or do you run into an instant-kill barrier? I don't know why you would, was just sort of curious if you could. Large chunks of my 'round-the-map loop railway are off the edge of cliffs, but I've never tried to go under.
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Aug 2, 2022 17:46
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Pretty sure Let’s Game It Out glitched through the floor and built an underground railway in his 2nd or 3rd satisfactory video
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Aug 2, 2022 18:09
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You can yeah, there are people that make factories below the map. https://youtu.be/7jEjA00O8z0
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Aug 2, 2022 18:10
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Is this intentional or just buggy? The rest of the track seems to be sectioned as listed, but here (in the purple block) we have two non-contiguous sections of track going in opposite directions that are considered part of the same block. This causes infinite deadlock if two trains are going in opposite directions. I thought block signals were directional so why are two unconnected blocks counted as one? Edit: After randomly trying a bunch of stuff, I tried manually redrawing half-steps in the track. After carrrrefuuuullly redrawing/deleting several times to get the curve right it decided to give me different colors. So basically if you're willing to go through manually redrawing small curved portions of track over and over, you too can have functional trains!  Oh, and the right side, despite being visually joined, was broken. I redrew it three times, looking exactly the same, until I could get a manual test train to drive over it. Then everything worked.
Mailer fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Aug 3, 2022 |
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Aug 3, 2022 15:17
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Mailer posted:Is this intentional or just buggy? The rest of the track seems to be sectioned as listed, but here (in the purple block) we have two non-contiguous sections of track going in opposite directions that are considered part of the same block. This causes infinite deadlock if two trains are going in opposite directions. I thought block signals were directional so why are two unconnected blocks counted as one? That's very odd. I can't see anything wrong with it and everything appears to be spaced properly. Silly suggestion, but have you tried rebuilding the bad sections?
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Aug 3, 2022 15:27
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Sections of physically separate track get combined into the same block if the system thinks they're close enough for trains to collide. So crossing track for example is handled safely. Those pieces shouldn't have any problem though. They're a full foundation apart which AFAIK is always good even in sharp turns. I would try rebuilding, and in particular offset the start of those diverging curves a tiny bit. IE:  (illustration exaggerated for clarity -- in game try just like a notch or two on the snaps so it won't be so visually asymmetric,)
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Aug 3, 2022 15:52
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The game is supposed to consider the full loading gauge of the train running on the track for the collision checking. So two tracks that are fine when running parallel might not be fine when they start out with a curve in towards each other like that, since trains reach out a bit further from the track in the ends on a curve.
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Aug 3, 2022 20:03
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This game is weirdly more lonely feeling than Factorio
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Aug 3, 2022 20:37
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Factorio's world is designed to be paved over, it doesn't really register as a real place. Satisfactory conversely has an absolutely stunning hand-crafted environment, which I think think contributes to the sense of isolation. It's also detailed to the point where I sometimes almost feel like it's at odds with the factory-building mechanics. Like I would absolutely play something more centrally about exploration and discovery vs. building and automation in the exact same levels.
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Aug 3, 2022 20:39
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To be fair in Satisfactory too I pave over everything because the uneven terrain is not conducive to factory building.
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Aug 3, 2022 20:49
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Imagine if you had to make the platforms etc structurally sound like Valheim, yikes lmao
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Aug 3, 2022 20:53
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priznat posted:Imagine if you had to make the platforms etc structurally sound like Valheim, yikes lmao [Framerate drops to less than 1 fps while the CPU catches fire]
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Aug 4, 2022 02:27
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8one6 posted:[Framerate drops to less than 1 fps while the CPU catches fire] Also: each screw in a bin lovingly individually rendered
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Aug 4, 2022 02:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's also detailed to the point where I sometimes almost feel like it's at odds with the factory-building mechanics. Like I would absolutely play something more centrally about exploration and discovery vs. building and automation in the exact same levels. It does feel like a pitch that started off as a survival game on an alien island and then they found out the crafting and automation was far more fun than the survival. It's kind of hard to claim you've paved paradise when your pavement is hovering two hundred feet above paradise, but I suspect that's a really hard problem to solve and time that'd be better spent on more wacky tech.
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Aug 4, 2022 06:34
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priznat posted:Also: each screw in a bin lovingly individually rendered The first time you produce a bin of screws your CPU explodes.
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Aug 4, 2022 07:28
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Collateral Damage posted:Each screw is a separate object with collision physics. Ah, the Star Citizen approach to game design.
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Aug 4, 2022 10:18
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priznat posted:Imagine if you had to make the platforms etc structurally sound like Valheim, yikes lmao ha ha ha yes I definitely don't do this no sir Also I still haven't really "gotten" trains. Like I always feel like either my need to transport things is short enough that the appallingly massive stations mean a train line would be comical and I should Just Run Belts, or I'm trying to bring something down a huge elevation change and a train solution would be some hideous corkscrew in space, or it's so long that I should just build a satellite base to build the parts anyway (Or I'll just build a quick road and a truck and two stations!) I've "finished" the game twice so far and only in this most recent one did I use a single train line, pick up a lot of quartz and coal from the area near the northern forest and haul it over to a major base in the NW Desert that builds all products up to tier 6, with conveyor belts getting me all the iron/copper/limestone/caterium I need for that, and a truck line hauling plastic and rubber from a secondary oil base to the south. Truck lines, though, Truck lines make perfect sense to me. Those I'll build tons of. I see everyone saying "oh, here's my giant train network, trains are awesome, why would anyone ever build trucks" and I just kind of get confused because that's completely the opposite of how I have always approached the game.
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Aug 4, 2022 17:13
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I wish they'd fix trucks bouncing when you drive on foundations.
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Aug 4, 2022 17:15
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Every solution that can use trucks can be done with trains but way better. I actually just entirely skip trucks. They're so useless.
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Aug 4, 2022 17:17
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 building a goddamn mile of conveyor belt is only marginally more tedious than setting up a truck route and the belt will never randomly get stuck or run out of fuel for no reason
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Aug 4, 2022 17:21
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One truck route is much easier to set up than one train route, as long as you have a ready fuel supply at one end, not to mention how little actual infrastructure it requires. That said, you can't expand a truck route off an existing route, while trains can eventually be build out into a whole network. Your thirtieth truck route is just as easy to set up as your first, but your latest train route is much easier. Which essentially boils down to saying trucks are much more useful in the early game but trains will take over much better later on, which is how the game is paced anyway.
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Aug 4, 2022 17:31
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Tenebrais posted:One truck route is much easier to set up than one train route, as long as you have a ready fuel supply at one end, not to mention how little actual infrastructure it requires. That said, you can't expand a truck route off an existing route, while trains can eventually be build out into a whole network. Your thirtieth truck route is just as easy to set up as your first, but your latest train route is much easier. This is kind of getting at my issue: I tend to only *do* point-to-point transit routes, and not some massive ring with 50 megatrains that requires roundabouts and switching and everything. I just... I have stuff at Base A that I want to get to Base B, so I make a quick truck line to get there and back, and it just works. I don't think that's what trains are meant for- they're meant for these massive, sprawling, mapwide networks that only to my eye really come into their own kinda postgame. I guess when the new tiers drop I might use them? But having happily completed the space elevator twice as it is now without doing that, I just... I don't *get* it. I'm not saying the people who use them are wrong, I'm just saying either they don't fit how I play the game and as such all the posts with incredibly complex switching networks and hourlong youtube videos about how to do proper curves and track mergers and separations with signalling and whatnot just kind of fly completely over my head. edit: also I hate now space-hungry train stations are  They BIG, truck stations SMALL and I can fit them wherever I need them to go
Mukaikubo fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 17:46
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One track lines are fine
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Aug 4, 2022 17:54
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Oooh! And drones. I like using drones, even if keeping everyone supplied with batteries is a bit of a pain. So yeah, drones for small amounts of stuff, trucks in point to point routes for middlin' amounts of things, and I just never really found a need to transport Huge amounts of stuff half across the map. 
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Aug 4, 2022 17:58
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Because it’s fun, OP.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:02
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CainFortea posted:Every solution that can use trucks can be done with trains but way better. I actually just entirely skip trucks. They're so useless. This but factory carts because they don't consume fuel.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:09
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I wonder if Trucks could benefit from a building that just does refueling, but is much smaller. Or if letting you charge trucks electrically would improve their usability. There's been a few occasions where I considered using a truck, but then realized I didn't have coal at either end of where I wanted to set up the trucks.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:14
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Oxyclean posted:I wonder if Trucks could benefit from a building that just does refueling, but is much smaller. Or if letting you charge trucks electrically would improve their usability. There's been a few occasions where I considered using a truck, but then realized I didn't have coal at either end of where I wanted to set up the trucks. Have inductive charge roadways they could charge up as they drive over!
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Aug 4, 2022 18:30
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Mukaikubo posted:I've "finished" the game twice so far and only in this most recent one did I use a single train line, pick up a lot of quartz and coal from the area near the northern forest and haul it over to a major base in the NW Desert that builds all products up to tier 6, with conveyor belts getting me all the iron/copper/limestone/caterium I need for that, and a truck line hauling plastic and rubber from a secondary oil base to the south. So have you finished the game as in completing the final elevator shipment? And did you produce the final components at more than 1 per minute? No shade if you haven't! The final elevator shipment is nuts and is 100% optional. It's the Hell World / secret bonus stage. But if you start spreadsheeting out the numbers to produce that stuff at a decent rate, you start saying things like "I need 3500 ingots per minute. Of just steel." Solving that type of demand without trains is pretty crazy. Mukaikubo posted:edit: also I hate now space-hungry train stations are Yeah that I get. I like making fancy buildings and train stations are hard to fit in until you build at a pretty big scale.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:33
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Its funny how conveyor belts are the most effect way of scaling cliffs
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Aug 4, 2022 18:34
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I haven't used the mods in a bit but does the one that did zooping before it was a thing have a way to auto place stacked conveyors? Like just place a stack of 4 using the conveyor supports. That'd be handy!
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Aug 4, 2022 18:41
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Also i've never had a truck route actually work without having to go flip a truck back over at least every couple hours.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:49
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CainFortea posted:Also i've never had a truck route actually work without having to go flip a truck back over at least every couple hours. This shouldn't be happening after update 5. Maybe they'll flip over if you're near them and they run into a rock or something but they should sort themselves out after a few seconds.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:58
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 17:51 |
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The only truck problems I encounter nowadays is if I've got trucks driving opposite directions in the same place and they deadlock each other. Which is a problem you can fix with design.
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Aug 4, 2022 19:12
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