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You could straight up give Fighters and Rogues a more limited selection of the spell list in exchange for their having higher base HP and armor proficiency. Like of the level 9 spells Fighters only get Meteor Swarm (deals piercing damage; requires a bow), Invulnerability, and Power Word: Kill (range: equal to that of held weapon).
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Aug 5, 2022 06:33
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Ferrinus posted:You could straight up give Fighters and Rogues a more limited selection of the spell list in exchange for their having higher base HP and armor proficiency. Like of the level 9 spells Fighters only get Meteor Swarm (deals piercing damage; requires a bow), Invulnerability, and Power Word: Kill (range: equal to that of held weapon).  
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Aug 5, 2022 07:25
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See also 
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Aug 5, 2022 07:34
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Just posting muscle wizard because.
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Aug 5, 2022 11:24
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Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing?
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Aug 5, 2022 15:10
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KingKalamari posted:Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing? Oof, DC 30 check right there. Roll deception.
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Aug 5, 2022 15:21
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KingKalamari posted:Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing? He's just reading her a bedtime story and has gotten way too into it himself.
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Aug 5, 2022 15:22
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Rutibex posted:Also that ability from Blades in the Dark where you can do a flashback and explain how you expertly planned for this circumstance like Batman.
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Aug 5, 2022 15:24
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KingKalamari posted:Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing? The paladin was coming in to ask him to keep it down, but is caught gawking at the wizard's full back tattoo, which is of this painting.
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Aug 5, 2022 15:30
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KingKalamari posted:Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing? CUCKED BY THE QUASIT, by chuck tingle
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Aug 5, 2022 15:36
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KingKalamari posted:Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing? My guess is that it’s actually from Ars Magica. There’s an inverted pentagram in the back, so it’s something the TSR code of ethics would have forbidden.
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Aug 5, 2022 15:58
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KingKalamari posted:Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing? the wizard is trying to seal the shirt stealing ghost inside the book before it can disrobe the woman, unfortunately the wizard was not able to save his own shirt nor the shirt of the corvid
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Aug 5, 2022 16:02
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Arivia posted:My guess is that it’s actually from Ars Magica. There’s an inverted pentagram in the back, so it’s something the TSR code of ethics would have forbidden. It's the cover of a comic book. https://www.ebay.com/itm/295036505688?nma=true&si=8QqGILHs26ITbTOQTK76AsVZJbU%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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Aug 5, 2022 16:05
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For what it's worth, in my personal experience, my players have never been comfortable with having meta-narrative powers at their disposal. I've tried the shared-worldbuilding approaches recommended by games like Dungeon World. Even just saying like, you're at the state fair, what do you want to do? tends to get a freeze response more often than not. They tend to prefer treating the game like "i am my character, and i navigate the world the DM built. I can't just say there's a pie eating contest at the fair, because i don't have powers over reality." I think that 5e very strongly leans toward that kind of narrative divide in its game design, probably for this exact reason of accommodating that playstyle. The downside is that it makes it hard to give certain character classes some of the really gratifying powers they get in other systems, like the "I did it 15 minutes ago" rogue power previously discussed. I wonder how it'd go if there was a loot table for unique level 1 equipment, and at character creation players could choose a character-defining artifact. Like how Frodo starts the adventure with the One Ring and it lets him turn invisible, or how Luke starts the adventure with a lightsaber.
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Aug 5, 2022 16:20
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nelson posted:5e rogue is … not great. They give up spellcasting and armor and get good at skill checks. Except the Bard is also good at skill checks and gets to be a full caster. Damage wise, the rogue gets outclassed by a fighter with one of the power attack feats. But the fighter also gets good armor. I like the idea of the Rogue being the skill monkey who has the higher floor and is much less likely to gently caress something up, and that is Reliable Talent. The problem is that level 11 is way too late for something that should be archetype defining to come online. If I were tweaking the Rogue base class, I'd have Reliable Talent come online at 5th or 6th level (maybe swapping it for the second round of Expertise choices). Skillchecks could play very differently if you've got that Reliable Talent Rogue who is guaranteed to succeed any skillcheck easier than a Hard DC for anything they're proficient in. Ginger Beer Belly fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 16:33
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my players love rogue because you can use bonus action dash and run around really fast. from a pure optimization standpoint it might be weak but players like to run fast and roll lots of dice
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Aug 5, 2022 16:50
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Thread, your idiot king has done something perfectly in keeping with his title and not only purchased but read Classic Dragonlance: Dragons of Deceit by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. Some things you should know off the bat. That "Classic" appended to the Dragonlance brand is to indicate to you the reader that the authors and editors know how you feel about Dragons of Summer Flame and everything that came afterwards, and they want you to know that this is set well before any of that stuff. Palin hasn't been born yet, we can just ignore any rumors that Sturm and Kitiara ever hosed, and most importantly, Tanis is not getting thrown from a wall any time soon. The next most important thing you should know is that Margaret Weiss wants you to know that she "teaches the competitive dog-racing sport Flyball." This is sadly, the most intriguing idea presented in the text. So is the novel any good? Nah. Does that mean it's bad? Nah. It's an alright Dragonlance novel that takes a while to build traction and becomes pretty amusing and fun once that onc\e character on the cover joins the adventure. He's as irritating and delightful as ever. You can tell that Hickman and Weiss haven't written together in some time, and you get to read along as they find their legs. The novel's biggest weakness is that it's a slow setup for some very crazy shenanigans that will payoff well in the sequels. The first 100 or so pages are sorta PG GoT in Solamnia. The Second 100 or so pages are a surprisingly easy and uneventful trip to secure a lost artifact. The last third starts building to something fun, but it becomes pretty clear that the novel will end on a cliffhanger, and you'll have to read the sequels. As a reset and re-presentation of Dragonlance for a new edition of material, it works pretty well. As an entry point and invitation for new fans, it's too mired in nostalgia and appearances by legacy characters to be effective.
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Aug 5, 2022 16:50
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I liked Dragons of Summer Flame. 
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Aug 5, 2022 16:52
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PeterWeller posted:Thread, your idiot king has done something perfectly in keeping with his title and not only purchased but read Classic Dragonlance: Dragons of Deceit by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. The big question for me is: Does it introduce any new and baffling concepts regarding theology, morality or world building in general? I've admittedly had fairly limited contact with Dragonlance as a setting, but everything I've heard about it suggests it is a setting that has some very interesting story ideas at its core that are executed by creators whose worldview is just different enough from most people that everything seems to work on this weird brand of alternate reality logic. The big one is the series' weird approach to theology and morality, most of which can be traced back to the creators being Mormons, meaning they have an ingrained theological outlook close to, but slightly different from that of the majority of people in the United States, but it also crops up in stuff like the Kender or Gully Dwarves and how the creators envisioned them vs the fandom at large perceived them.
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Aug 5, 2022 17:02
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KingKalamari posted:The big question for me is: Does it introduce any new and baffling concepts regarding theology, morality or world building in general? How does afterlife work in dragonlance? I've never used that setting because I've encountered a number of players who wanted to be Kender, and all I could gather was it's a race of "extremely annoying hobbits". But I've used Mystara and that setting is actually fairly theologically Mormon. In the sense of the Mormon idea of Exaltation, where the life of mortals is preparation to join the immortals.
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Aug 5, 2022 17:14
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I'm not familiar enough with the setting to go into specifics, but my understanding is that Dragonlance's worldbuilding isn't a direct reflection of the theological model as presented in the Book of Mormon so much as some of its stranger attitudes towards morality and the actions of the gods within the setting make a lot more sense when viewed through the lens of Mormon philosophy. I've actually come to realize a lot of early D&D's approach to morality was probably heavily influenced by the fact that a lot of the early designers were either members of, or raised in those sort of fringe, midwestern Christian sects: It's not often brought up, but Gygax himself was raised Jehovah's Witness.
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Aug 5, 2022 17:28
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pog boyfriend posted:my players love rogue because you can use bonus action dash and run around really fast. from a pure optimization standpoint it might be weak but players like to run fast and roll lots of dice It's hard to beat if you're avoiding conflict.
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Aug 5, 2022 18:05
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KingKalamari posted:The big question for me is: Does it introduce any new and baffling concepts regarding theology, morality or world building in general? No, not really. And I don't think Dragonlance ever really did any of that. I think the Mormon influence is overblown. One of the novel writers is Mormon. And there were like five or six main people on the Dragonlance design team. So it's not like Mormons dominated the design process. From what I can tell the most Mormon thing about the setting is how a conspicuously blonde fantasy Native American woman plays an instrumental role in returning knowledge of the true gods to the world, knowledge that is inscribed on metal plates. And you don't even need magic rocks to decipher them. There may be subtleties I'm missing because my knowledge of the Mormon church comes from some childhood friends and Matt and Trey's comedy, but the impression I've always got is that Dragonlance was designed to be a sorta essentialist D&D. The DL series of modules are all focused on exploring a distinctive dungeon and confronting some dragons. The world is roughly a circle of disunited good/neutral nations around a mountainous evil center from which the dragon armies have spread, and the main quest of the DL series is roughly uniting all those outlying good areas against that evil center while collecting cool artifacts to use in the coming showdown. The gods are divided into good, neutral, and evil camps. The forces of Good and Neutrality need to team up to restore the balance that the forces of Evil have knocked out of whack. There may be something particularly Mormon about the Cataclysm that I don't notice; it has always struck me as pretty standard Old Testament punishment -inspired stuff. Rutibex posted:How does afterlife work in dragonlance? I've never used that setting because I've encountered a number of players who wanted to be Kender, and all I could gather was it's a race of "extremely annoying hobbits". But I've used Mystara and that setting is actually fairly theologically Mormon. In the sense of the Mormon idea of Exaltation, where the life of mortals is preparation to join the immortals. If you serve any god not named Takhisis/Erestem/The Dragon Queen, your soul goes to a dreamland and lives happily ever after. If you serve the aforementioned god, your soul goes to the Abyss to be her plaything. In terms of Exaltation, Dragonlance could be considered particularly anti-Mormon among D&D settings (not in the opposed to sense, but in the opposite of sense). There are no gods who were once mortals. The plot of the Legends trilogy hinges on Raistlin's (a powerful archmage and one of the first trilogy's central characters) attempt to usurp Takhisis and become a god in her place. He learns that he could pull it off, but it would leave him god of a wasteland. Mechanically, characters cannot go past level 18 on Krynn. If they try to, the gods are going to stop them. If they leave Krynn's crystal sphere for a world without such limitations, level up past 18, and then come back to Krynn, they'll get knocked back down to 18. E: All of this is in reference to "Classic" Dragonlance. I don't know poo poo about the later stuff. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 18:57
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PeterWeller posted:No, not really. And I don't think Dragonlance ever really did any of that. I think the Mormon influence is overblown. One of the novel writers is Mormon. And there were like five or six main people on the Dragonlance design team. So it's not like Mormons dominated the design process. From what I can tell the most Mormon thing about the setting is how a conspicuously blonde fantasy Native American woman plays an instrumental role in returning knowledge of the true gods to the world, knowledge that is inscribed on metal plates. And you don't even need magic rocks to decipher them. I think the other commonly suggested source for Mormon influence was kender, which were Tracy's attempt to create D&D classed thieves who weren't evil/actually sinning through the act of stealing. People also lump the gully dwarves in with that, but I think that's much more tenuous.
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Aug 5, 2022 19:23
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Yeah, by admission a lot of that is me repeating theories I've heard second-hand: I've read a fairly good breakdown as to how the actions of the Gods of Good in the cataclysm makes moral sense when viewed through the particular fringe Christian theological interpretation of the Old Testament, and then had sort of accepted the idea some other people put forth that the other weird or awkward things about the world (Kender, Gully Dwarves, the main magical school just having explicitly labelled "good" and "evil" track and everyone just accepts this, etc.) were influenced by a religious worldview uncritically. The fact that Hickman is fairly open that he feels his faith influences his work as a writer probably only galvanizes those kind of half formed theories.
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Aug 5, 2022 19:34
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KingKalamari posted:Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing? Muscle Wizard is trying to figure out how the menstrual cycle works. Every month the demon escapes from between your pages, you say?
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Aug 5, 2022 19:46
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Arivia posted:I think the other commonly suggested source for Mormon influence was kender, which were Tracy's attempt to create D&D classed thieves who weren't evil/actually sinning through the act of stealing. People also lump the gully dwarves in with that, but I think that's much more tenuous. Yeah, I've seen that too, but I think a better explanation for the Kender is the desire to make Dragonlance's Halflings as distinct from Tolkien's Hobbits as possible. The "finder" bit comes in to explain how a race with no concept of material attachments would still end up producing a lot of people with the thief class. I always took Gully Dwarves as a good example of Dragonlance's progressive streak when it comes to race and gender. KingKalamari posted:Yeah, by admission a lot of that is me repeating theories I've heard second-hand: I've read a fairly good breakdown as to how the actions of the Gods of Good in the cataclysm makes moral sense when viewed through the particular fringe Christian theological interpretation of the Old Testament, and then had sort of accepted the idea some other people put forth that the other weird or awkward things about the world (Kender, Gully Dwarves, the main magical school just having explicitly labelled "good" and "evil" track and everyone just accepts this, etc.) were influenced by a religious worldview uncritically. The fact that Hickman is fairly open that he feels his faith influences his work as a writer probably only galvanizes those kind of half formed theories. Yeah, I think there is a bit of Kirk drift going on with Dragonlance in that there are some things that are conspicuously Mormon and one of the main creators is vocally Mormon, so via the telephone game of pop culture, the setting's reputation as distinctly Mormon grows and grows. Also, if you're playing through Dragons of Despair, there's gonna be a moment when you turn to the DM and say, "hey wait a minute, these Discs of Mishakal are totally the Book of Mormon, aren't they?!?" I'd note that while the main magic school organization is explicitly divided into good, neutral, and evil orders, in the broader setting context, that becomes a little more nuanced. A lot of people just hate mages regardless of their robe color. The three magic gods they serve come from the good, neutral, and evil pantheons, but they're also sibling allies who form their own "whatever the rest of our families do, we make sure magic is preserved" faction. And the mortal members of the orders follow a similar ethos. White Robes and Black Robes could find themselves volleying fireballs at each other on the battlefield one week, and then meet as, at the very least, courteous rivals at some big wizard convention the next. And if some people tried to burn down one of their wizard towers, they'd all band together to defend it regardless of who those assailants were.
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Aug 5, 2022 19:56
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Someone up thread many moons ago said that what they liked about Dragonlance was, paraphrasing, it does high end big magic artifacts everywhere gameplay better than most other d&d settings. Most everything else peaks around fifth level; in Dragonlance getting a full suite of +3 gear is barely getting started. I find it kinda hokey but there's nothing wrong with hokey if that's what you want.
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Aug 5, 2022 20:14
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Someone up thread many moons ago said that what they liked about Dragonlance was, paraphrasing, it does high end big magic artifacts everywhere gameplay better than most other d&d settings. Most everything else peaks around fifth level; in Dragonlance getting a full suite of +3 gear is barely getting started. I think it's just more plainly obvious in Dragonlance. In Eberron it's pretty clear that you're gonna be a Big poo poo With All The Magic, but it gets a bit diffused because big poo poo isn't +3 armor, it's "have your own airship." The Forgotten Realms mid to high level play is totally obscured nowadays so people just see shitfarmer level 1 PCs and Elminster and have no idea how you get from one to the other.
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Aug 5, 2022 20:17
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Cephas posted:For what it's worth, in my personal experience, my players have never been comfortable with having meta-narrative powers at their disposal. I've tried the shared-worldbuilding approaches recommended by games like Dungeon World. Even just saying like, you're at the state fair, what do you want to do? tends to get a freeze response more often than not. They tend to prefer treating the game like "i am my character, and i navigate the world the DM built. I can't just say there's a pie eating contest at the fair, because i don't have powers over reality." Yes, this is called "asking the player to cross the line" and it's a common fail state in those games as well. It's also usually very easy to rotationally dodge around by asking something that's more obviously under pure player control, like "what's your favorite thing to do at a country fair?" and working off the answer.
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Aug 5, 2022 20:56
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There is a kender PC in the ongoing Spelljammer actual-play on the official D&D YouTube channel and honestly I kind of love her? I think having just one (1) in the party and the fact that she’s being played by somebody I already liked kind of helps though
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Aug 5, 2022 21:36
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nelson posted:5e rogue is … not great. They give up spellcasting and armor and get good at skill checks. Except the Bard is also good at skill checks and gets to be a full caster. Damage wise, the rogue gets outclassed by a fighter with one of the power attack feats. But the fighter also gets good armor. The 5e rogue suffers from exactly the same problem as the 5e fighter; what they get from levelling up is basically "Number goes up". Except for the very situational blindsense it's difficult to point to anything a level 20 rogue can do that a level 11 rogue can't with only slightly bigger numbers. Which means that fighters, rogues, and barbarians basically never leave Tier 2.
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Aug 5, 2022 21:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Someone up thread many moons ago said that what they liked about Dragonlance was, paraphrasing, it does high end big magic artifacts everywhere gameplay better than most other d&d settings. Most everything else peaks around fifth level; in Dragonlance getting a full suite of +3 gear is barely getting started. Dragonlance is the Saturday Morning Cartoon of D&D settings. It's big, goofy, and with clear cut good vs evil (unlike the shades of Greyhawk and the shadows of Ravenloft that were the two main settings of the time - and even the Realms isn't so clear cut). Well, Spelljammer is also Saturday Morning Cartoons but in a very different way.
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Aug 5, 2022 21:55
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neonchameleon posted:Dragonlance is the Saturday Morning Cartoon of D&D settings. It's big, goofy, and with clear cut good vs evil (unlike the shades of Greyhawk and the shadows of Ravenloft that were the two main settings of the time - and even the Realms isn't so clear cut). Well, Spelljammer is also Saturday Morning Cartoons but in a very different way. It's a little more nuanced because it also has the "sometimes evil is just complex and can be redeemed" like the Draconians who break off from the Evil camp once they find female draconians and form their own nation up north. The Kang's Regiment novels and side stories flesh them out and they're awesome, especially if you're looking for a more military themed adventure. And of course Raistlin who has his Start of Darkness but gets redeemed in a final sacrifice kind of deal. Even Chemosh the literal evil death god you feel sorry for at the end of his arc (channeling Paradise Lost?). Pretzel Rod Stewart posted:There is a kender PC in the ongoing Spelljammer actual-play on the official D&D YouTube channel and honestly I kind of love her? I think having just one (1) in the party and the fact that she’s being played by somebody I already liked kind of helps though I'm apparently one of those rare people who always loved Tasselhoff Burrfoot and Kender in general. I liked the idea that once a Kender gets famous enough they become literally a meme and every Kender ever will have some story about how they're related and met/know that famous Kender and its really endearing to me the shenanigans they get up to. PeterWeller posted:No, not really. And I don't think Dragonlance ever really did any of that. I think the Mormon influence is overblown. One of the novel writers is Mormon. And there were like five or six main people on the Dragonlance design team. So it's not like Mormons dominated the design process. From what I can tell the most Mormon thing about the setting is how a conspicuously blonde fantasy Native American woman plays an instrumental role in returning knowledge of the true gods to the world, knowledge that is inscribed on metal plates. And you don't even need magic rocks to decipher them. In the Lore/books I think what it was that to get to high level you needed the permission of the gods aka, you needed to get "The Key" which was the central plotpoint for Raistlin; he needed to swear fealty to Takhisis in order to unlock higher level spells. Maybe the official rules say something didn't but I'd be surprised if especially in 5e nowadays the setting book rules specified a max level other than 20 like every other setting. There are also a sort of psuedo exception about Exaltation; Mortals don't become gods per se, but special mortals can become essentially demi-gods; and they even take a place among the stars like the rest of the gods. Flint Fireforge and Tasselhoff Burrfoot became a star at the end of Dragons of Summerflame; and Raistlin and Caramon became basically Planeswalkers as in I didn't get the sense that Raistlin wasn't waiting for Caramon just to journey to the afterlife but to wander. Another interesting thing albeit maybe they changed it for the official rules; was at least in the post-War of Souls books where Chemosh is courting Mina, Chemosh IIRC mentions something about how the Gods don't know what happens to the souls of mortals after they exit the material plane; Chemosh watches over this big long procession of souls of the recently deceased and is judging them but where they go after that IIRC he says he doesn't know; which is very interesting and maybe might sorta fit with some aspects of Mormonism.
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Aug 6, 2022 00:01
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The two most interesting and best books in the Dragonlance setting, are about a group of draconians, and the morality is more gray there. I just hope there's more stuff about the Teyr draconians. Edit: beaten lol
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Aug 6, 2022 00:04
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Slowpoke Rodriguez posted:The two most interesting and best books in the Dragonlance setting, are about a group of draconians, and the morality is more gray there. 100%, I think the Kang's Regiment books are the best honestly. They're just so good. And I really do hope we see more about Teyr eventually that isn't just fan content.
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Aug 6, 2022 00:45
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The coolest Dragonlance product as far as I'm concerned is the Time of the Dragon boxed set that introduced a whole new continent full of awesome stuff like Elf-Quest style elves, minotaur Rome, competent tinker gnomes who lived on a lava sea, a desert of glass more hardcore than anything in Dark Sun, and shark cults. E: It also did a really cool thing by basing character generation around 2E AD&D kits that were all based in cultural roles from the setting.
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Aug 6, 2022 00:57
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A funny thing is that this very suggestion is like my exact first post in this thread, ever.
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Aug 6, 2022 01:41
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KingKalamari posted:Can someone try to explain to me what's supposed to be going on in that image in a way that doesn't make it sound like a sex thing? "Hey Steve, I'm heading to the store, you need any...OH poo poo SORRY!" "God DAMMIT, Dave, there's a sock on the door for a loving reason!"
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Aug 6, 2022 01:48
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PeterWeller posted:The coolest Dragonlance product as far as I'm concerned is the Time of the Dragon boxed set that introduced a whole new continent full of awesome stuff like Elf-Quest style elves, minotaur Rome, competent tinker gnomes who lived on a lava sea, a desert of glass more hardcore than anything in Dark Sun, and shark cults. Ok that does sound cool.
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Aug 6, 2022 02:07
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