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I still have the last two episodes left, but they really are shifting things around for Dolls House. I really like them making Lyta more of a character and seperating her and Hector from their superhero counterparts in the comics feels smart, and having Jed be the superhero is lovely. I understand them ditching Brute and Glob because they are DC characters and obscure ones at that, and I think the new Nightmare they wrote actually helps show how out of touch Morpheus can be, even after his journey to regain his tools. All in all, the changes they are making feel perfectly fitting for the story and I think help make it a more cohesive television story. Loving the whole thing so far.
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Aug 6, 2022 03:48
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cptn_dr posted:Also in episode 4, David Thewlis is really doing an incredible job as John Dee. I do wish he was still a ghoul of a man.
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Aug 6, 2022 05:10
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MonsterEnvy posted:I do wish he was still a ghoul of a man. That skull face was incorporating oldskool DC canon, it was a great nod to the old comics   As this page explains, Doctor Destiny realised that his dream powers gave him the ability to just create a new Materioptikon (ruby dream stone) via his dreams and resume his supervillains schemes whenever he liked so the Justice League destroyed his ability to dream which made him gradually wither away until he was a living skeleton. This all played out on the 1960s and 70s.
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Aug 6, 2022 06:18
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Having not seen it, how edgy, for want of a better term, is "24 hours" compared to the comic incarnation?
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Aug 6, 2022 06:34
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Less edgy, but still reasonably brutal toward the end there.
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Aug 6, 2022 06:41
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Digital Jedi posted:Loving Patton as Matthew It's funny because I don't dislike Patton Oswalt but I don't think he's appropriate for matthew. I always feel Matthew's voice more of a slick kind of Gambler or grifter type. Oswalt feels a little more high strung for Matthew.
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Aug 6, 2022 07:44
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Mr. Merdle posted:It's funny because I don't dislike Patton Oswalt but I don't think he's appropriate for matthew. I always feel Matthew's voice more of a slick kind of Gambler or grifter type. Oswalt feels a little more high strung for Matthew. Patton Oswald’s Matthew sounds a lot like Crow from The Longest Journey so it works for me.
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Aug 6, 2022 08:38
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Oh man, episode 6 ruled. "It's impolite to keep your friends waiting." 
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Aug 6, 2022 08:44
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God drat death's scenes just bring tears to my eyes every time. I think Gaiman just did such an incredible job contrasting this woman with her duty. It's a powerful and cruel and ultimately kind of hopeful part of the human experience. The idea that death comes for us and is a sweet and gentle and ultimately good-natured and compassionate part of our lives is really beautiful.
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Aug 6, 2022 08:46
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cptn_dr posted:Less edgy, but still reasonably brutal toward the end there. They pretty much completely cut out all the aspects of the world at large going to hell (like, I'm sure there are some easter eggs in the background noise from the TV but unless you've got the subtitles on you'll probably only hear a line or two). So all the horrifying background poo poo that punctuates every page in the comic is basically gone. Beyond that, I think one of the most interesting aspects of the show was the way that the modern people were and weren't updated from the late 80s to the early 20s. I don't know if the show is just treating the various queer characters with more familiarity, or if I'm just a lot more familiar with people like this than I was when I was a closeted teenager stranded in the suburbs pouring through my Sandman trades. Oh yeah, and one very small but interesting omission was Fun Land giving his speech about how he hunts children at <theme park that is just barely legally distinct from Disney World>. The speech is almost word-for-word what is in the comic, except for the part about how the people who run the park always manage to cover everything up. I wonder if they decided that was a bit too poor taste, or if they were afraid that Disney's lawyers would find some way to punish them.
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Aug 6, 2022 09:30
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Mr. Merdle posted:God drat death's scenes just bring tears to my eyes every time. I think Gaiman just did such an incredible job contrasting this woman with her duty. It's a powerful and cruel and ultimately kind of hopeful part of the human experience. The idea that death comes for us and is a sweet and gentle and ultimately good-natured and compassionate part of our lives is really beautiful. It's cliche but I always loved Discworld's Death. His job was to end suffering and escort the person to the next stage of their existence. But considering how close Gaiman and Pratchett were those two might as well be the same person. I enjoy a Death that loves life. It also seemed like Dream became slowly more emotive as the show went on which was nice. And having people in the bar complaining about the same poo poo over and over for hundreds of years was also a good touch. Push El Burrito fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 09:41
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Binged the whole season in 1 sitting having never read the comics. Good but not great. Episode 1 is a bit slow due to full on set up and world building. The way the main arcs are resolved is a bit quick and convenient. Agree episode 6 is the best, and the hook for season 2 is great. I googled what Death looks like in the comic and it would’ve been cool to see that version on screen, but Kirby Howell-Baptiste brings so much empathy to the role that I’m happy with what we got. 8/10 would recommend. Josh Lyman fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 10:19
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I've long held David Thewlis in high esteem (His portrayal of V.M. Varga was particularly vile), and his participation in this show is no different to me. His expressions evoked a world weariness and sadness from his character.
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Aug 6, 2022 10:27
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ep 3 I'm surprised that Jenna Coleman's Johanna Constantine really is John Constantine--I thought they were just going to turn her into the Johanna Constantine from the comics and give her some kind of immortality subplot to explain why she's alive. But no, she's got John's backstory and everything.
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Aug 6, 2022 10:27
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Hilario Baldness posted:I've long held David Thewlis in high esteem (His portrayal of V.M. Varga was particularly vile), and his participation in this show is no different to me. His expressions evoked a world weariness and sadness from his character. He can be as creepy a fucker as you want.
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Aug 6, 2022 10:59
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He has a cool voice that doesn’t match his face, ina. Good way. Absolutely loving the show so far Question about Gaiman’s name on this: this is a DC Comic? But people treat it like an American Gods or a Stardust where it’s a “gaiman story” it feels like, and he’s involved in this show. Western comics also aren’t like manga where the author does the art too right - is a lot of the “look” of this down to Gaiman too or the artists at the time? I know Final Fantasy artist Amano did a bunch of sandman stuff for example Without being lovely about it this is too good to be a comic book adaptation lol
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Aug 6, 2022 11:10
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:He has a cool voice that doesn’t match his face, ina. Good way. It's a Gaiman comic. He was basically given a really obscure Silver Age character and free rein, and this is what he came up with. Then it became the flagship of Vertigo.
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Aug 6, 2022 11:18
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Man I would have loved a teeny abstract glimpse of Darkseid when antilife came up.
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Aug 6, 2022 11:34
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That does remind me though, Gwendoline Christie was loving awesome as Lucifer. The look on her face when Dream asked her if she could think of something that could kill hope was perfect.
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Aug 6, 2022 11:37
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Without being lovely about it this is too good to be a comic book adaptation lol  Vertigo was DC's imprint for adult/mature comics, and not as in "porn and gore" mature but as in dealing with political, social and metaphysical issues on a higher literary level, while also doing crazy comic book stuff. A lot of famous and critically acclaimed comics came from that time period.
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Aug 6, 2022 11:42
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I realize that this is a comic book adaptation, but holy poo poo do the first three episodes suffer from overexposition. Some good stuff in E4 to E6, then it skeets right downhill again like a flow of bowel refuse. I did not need dumbed down sandman rewritten for pointless reasons like Karate-Rose in my life. Luckily it's expensive enough to produce that I predict two seasons at most. E:Also holy poo poo the end of Johns drive was just insulting. Just take away everything that made that stick in your mind why don't you. Make it safe. MassiveSky fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 12:05
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MassiveSky posted:Just take away everything that made that stick in your mind why don't you. Make it safe. I've not started the show yet, but this was my concern -- could you elaborate? (I though Paper Girls suffered from similar issues, but this feels more pronounced.) Trying to work out whether I should prioritise this or the half dozen other unfinished shows in my queue.
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Aug 6, 2022 12:27
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Push El Burrito posted:And having people in the bar complaining about the same poo poo over and over for hundreds of years was also a good touch. The guy from 1589 namedropping plague is a bit different in 2022 than when it was written, too.
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Aug 6, 2022 12:36
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Open Source Idiom posted:I've not started the show yet, but this was my concern -- could you elaborate? (I though Paper Girls suffered from similar issues, but this feels more pronounced.) Sure. I assume you've read preludes and nocturnes before going ahead with this. I'll do broad strokes. After Dr. Destiny, or John Dee as he's known in the show escapes from the asylum, he gets picked up by a woman and asks to go where his ruby is, since he is not already in possession of it at this point in the show. I don't really remember the motivation for going on the trip in the comics, but eh. It's a long drive, and in the comic the woman pours her heart out to John along the way, while John patiently listens. She talks about intimate things, and it's clear that the woman hasn't had an honest conversation about these things to anyone for a long time. I don't remember if she was influenced by the ruby into doing so in the comic, but that's not really important. At the end of the drive, she says to john something along the lines of how great it was to talk to someone, how nice it was that John wasn't a weirdo, and that she wished him well in his future. John responds by pulling a gun and blowing her head off. In the show, John casually mentioned he murdered people in his past, the woman tries to call 911, they stop for gas while she tries to get help from the gas station employee. The employee shoots john who for some inscrutable reason has the TALISMAN OF POWER which destroys the guy shooting. Then they keep driving, and when they stop John gives the woman the TALISMAN OF POWER because she's a good person or some dumb poo poo. I did a facepalm straight out of 2002. If this show goes on for longer and it tries to adapt "A game of you", it'll be like an extra long adventure time episode. MassiveSky fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 12:48
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I prefer the show's version tbh.
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Aug 6, 2022 12:50
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Clever things have no audience in 2022.
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Aug 6, 2022 12:54
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MassiveSky posted:Sure. Thanks for this, and yeah, not adaptation choices that seem particularly well motivated or interesting. Ta muchly.
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Aug 6, 2022 12:57
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Necrothatcher posted:I prefer the show's version tbh. Yeah, I think there are some sanitised bits in the first episode, but the John Dee car drive owned. Made him more of a hosed up dude with really warped ideas about honesty and how the world should work, instead of just another callous murderous super-villain.
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Aug 6, 2022 12:58
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You didn't know he was a hosed up super villain with twisted motivations until he shot the woman, did you? Also, while the episode with death and Hob Gadling was good, they dropped the "dumping the cargo" piece of exposition which was central to Hob's remorse for having been a slaver. That was visceral even in comic book format. Seeing that live action would have stuck with people. The show is basically "once upon a time" with characters from the sandman universe. MassiveSky fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 13:05
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:He has a cool voice that doesn’t match his face, ina. Good way. It's largely regarded as one of the best things DC has ever produced, and for good reason. Sandman alone would put Gaiman as one of the greatest comic book writers ever, though it's hardly his only work. There's no reason a comic book can't be impressive. It's just a form of storytelling, after all. Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 13:08
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MassiveSky posted:You didn't know he was a hosed up super villain with twisted motivations until he shot the woman, did you? I have no idea what you mean by this. I just think his motivations in the show are way more interesting, and him sparing the lady in the car is part of that,
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Aug 6, 2022 13:08
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I have no idea what you mean by this. I just think his motivations in the show are way more interesting, and him sparing the lady in the car is part of that, The comics weren't perfect and I prefer the show casting a random old guy instead of a guy with a literal skull face, but that scene stunk of concession from the get-go. More of this show than Gaiman lets on feels like concession to focus groups.
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Aug 6, 2022 13:16
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I have no idea what you mean by this. I just think his motivations in the show are way more interesting, and him sparing the lady in the car is part of that, Yeah, I preferred that ]she lived. It made John Dee's character less predictable. There are definitely other elements that feel a little "sanded down" for television. Alex Burgess's end. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 13:21
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*NM.
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Aug 6, 2022 13:23
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MassiveSky posted:You didn't know he was a hosed up super villain with twisted motivations until he shot the woman, did you? No, you knew even before he appeared on the page. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I preferred that she lived. It made John Dee's character less predictable. I don't know about less predictable, but it made him a better character. I think the writers might have been inspired a little by Shirley Jackson's opening to Hill House: "No living creature can continue to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream". Dee's plan is to make everyone exist under those conditions, without the petty delusions and little lies we all tell ourselves, and it indeed drives them mad. Conversely there's the scene in the comics in Three Septembers and a January where Delirium says of Joshua Norton that his madness keeps him sane. And it's true; Norton is delusional, but he's not irrational. Jedit fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 13:23
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Jedit posted:No, you knew even before he appeared on the page. Like I knew he would spare the woman by the time he got into the car and she talked about her kids.
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Aug 6, 2022 13:24
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In the show at that point we've already seen him kill several people. Him sparing her helps him be a character and not just a walking bipedal bomb. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 13:25
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Up to episode 6 right now, and the adaptation owns. Of course there are things I would have liked to see (Eternal Waking), or lines from the comic that resonated with me that I'm sad were cut ("I'm not crying, little brother, it's only blood"), but so far they did a really good job streamlining the story for a series format. I also like that some events now have more of a reason in the show than "it just happens", the way it does in the comic books: In the comics, John's mother just dies and leaves him the amulet. Here she actually gives it to him, sacrificing herself. Likewise, Cain gives Abel the Goldie egg for no apparent reason. Here it's a gift from Morpheus to his servants as a sort of apology for sacrificing Gregory. Best of all, Dream meeting Nada in hell isn't a random occurence, but actually seems to have been orchestrated by Lucifer in order to rattle his opponent before the fight. Not so sure about Roderick Burgess' motivation being his love for his elder son, though. I preferred him being just greedy and wanting to live forever. Also, I'm actually okay with them sanding off some of the more edgelordy rough bits. I've been a fan of the books since the 1990s, but my wife recently re-read the comics and was really bothered by how much some of the characters, especially women, get mentally and physically tortured, raped and murdered. "I get the impression that young Neil Gaiman really liked to see women suffer", was her phrase. I initially protested, but, well, she does have a bit of a point. With 2022 hindsight, it's very obvious that despite being very progressive for its time, Sandman is (probably by necessity) very much a boy's tale with a boy protagonist. I for one was glad to see Rosemary survive, although maybe giving her the amulet may have been a bit much. Also, I loved the nod to Dave McKean's art when Morpheus distorts while confronting Alex. They generally did an amazing job capturing iconic frames from the book.
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Aug 6, 2022 13:25
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Dave Syndrome posted:Also, I'm actually okay with them sanding off some of the more edgelordy rough bits. I've been a fan of the books since the 1990s, but my wife recently re-read the comics and was really bothered by how much some of the characters, especially women, get mentally and physically tortured, raped and murdered. And my most diehard fan-friend (who is for some irrelevant reason also a woman) complained that the show is entirely too safe, lacking in nuance and ripe with overexplanation. There is something of value in it, but it's just caked with layers of poo poo. Sandman's slackjawed Kit Harrington-impression isn't helping either. MassiveSky fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 13:29
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MassiveSky posted:
I do agree with this on some points. Bits of it are less hosed-up than the comic manages (like all the wizard fighting and eternal waking, but the amulet of protection mostly fills that niche for me) but most of my objection is it's need to over explain the basic parts of the world, instead of just dropping the viewer in and trusting that we can figure it out. The intro to Ep 1 reminds me of that old College Humour video about Tim Burton's new movie, when he gives this rant about how "we're are the story tellers, weavers of grand mysteries etc" and all his crew are silently mouthing along in the background. Like it's very in love with itself and the idea of being a capital S Storyteller, and will spend loads of time telling you how profound and strange it is, and not enough time being strange and profound. I think Gaiman does this a lot in his other works, but the comic actually has the writing chops and dream-like artstyle to deliver on its promise. When the show stops doing that (Ep 5 and 6) it owns.
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Aug 6, 2022 13:37
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