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Uhhh, if it “risks” the bill, wouldn’t it fail by like 44 to 56 anyway? Do these amendments only need like a 1/3 approval to get in? I mean what the gently caress, libs? Yeah, real showing their asses moment on twitter today where the only Senator who seems to give a gently caress about the people gets told to shut up. Edit: I guess it’s some real underhanded “playing by the technical rules” poo poo they were trying to avoid? Maybe like if some Democrats support it, the Republicans would also vote to bring it over 50 if they thought it would kill the bill? If we’re in full what-if world, I guess they could have also just voted fully with Bernie on all his amendments to call Manchin’s bluff? loving stupid mind-game Calvinball bullshit, I hate our political system. JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Aug 7, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 16:34
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JazzFlight posted:Uhhh, if it “risks” the bill, wouldn’t it fail by like 44 to 56 anyway? Do these amendments only need like a 1/3 approval to get in? I mean what the gently caress, libs? My take on it is that because the margin for passing this in the senate is so slim, any amendment being added to the bill (widely supported or not) could be enough for someone like Sinema or Manchin to flip the table and not provide the coveted 50th aye.
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Aug 7, 2022 16:49
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Velocity Raptor posted:My take on it is that because the margin for passing this in the senate is so slim, any amendment being added to the bill (widely supported or not) could be enough for someone like Sinema or Manchin to flip the table and not provide the coveted 50th aye. But then I guess I didn't think of Republicans voting falsely to support it. Love how people hate how Bernie says that the Inflation Reduction Act won't really do anything to reduce inflation. Total team sport politics where if the Democrats lie, I guess we should just go along with it.
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Aug 7, 2022 16:57
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JazzFlight posted:Well, that was my question initially, like, if Manchin was voting for the amendment, then...? The provision violates budget impact rules, so the Republicans used a point of order to strip it. It required 60 votes to stay in.
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Aug 7, 2022 16:59
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Velocity Raptor posted:My take on it is that because the margin for passing this in the senate is so slim, any amendment being added to the bill (widely supported or not) could be enough for someone like Sinema or Manchin to flip the table and not provide the coveted 50th aye. And the votes that pass the amendment can still be people who will vote against the bill, so like one Republican says "Sure, I like that amendment!" then votes down the final bill because some other part of it is super turbo communism. That's why these amendment fests are such a calculated dance.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:00
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Mooseontheloose posted:Yah there was a push in the 70s and 80s to restrict tort law. Adam Ruins has a good skit on it.. Assholes like John Stosstle ran exposes on how the justice system was burden with nuisance suits and poor businesses couldn't handle it. Yeah, this is a common refrain you'll hear from conservative types attempting to explain away that the reason health insurance costs so much is because of malpractice insurance and frivolous lawsuits. I know a lot of personal injury billboard attorneys can be scummy but, on the other hand, who the gently caress else protects poor people from the scummy practices of corporations, doctors and insurance companies? Shame it has to be this way and that "fighting for the people" comes down to ambulance chasers with bus stop ads but who the gently caress else is going to do it? The government? The free market? In a roundabout way, personal injury lawyers ARE the free market at work when you think about it.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:14
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It's disgusting that I have to hoard expired insulin because I don't know what tomorrow will bring, it's disgusting that anyone has to ration their insulin, and it's disgusting that some unelected gently caress face can just choose to end lives, while trillions of military spending just sails on by because we have infinite money when it's convenient. gently caress this stupid hell country, I'm furious at this poo poo.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:25
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I feel like I read that the democrats might leave the insulin part in anyways because they dont have to do what the parliamentarian says But probably won’t happen
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Aug 7, 2022 17:35
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They can overrule the parliamentarian, but it's extremely unlikely that they would do that. The parliamentarian's main purpose in modern US politics is as a functionary who can decide what is and isn't germane to government funding, and is what allows reconciliation to happen at all -- this whole process that once(ish) a year the party can pass a budget neutral bill is the only way anything ever really gets done in our hosed up system. Overruling to parliamentarian would most likely lead to everything being subject to the filibuster going forward. It's arcane stupid nonsense, but that's what we've got to work with.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:46
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Ershalim posted:They can overrule the parliamentarian, but it's extremely unlikely that they would do that. The parliamentarian's main purpose in modern US politics is as a functionary who can decide what is and isn't germane to government funding, and is what allows reconciliation to happen at all -- this whole process that once(ish) a year the party can pass a budget neutral bill is the only way anything ever really gets done in our hosed up system. Overruling to parliamentarian would most likely lead to everything being subject to the filibuster going forward. Weird that there's never an issue for funding trillions of dollars of war poo poo though. What a loving joke of a system.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:50
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Professor Beetus posted:Weird that there's never an issue for funding trillions of dollars of war poo poo though. What a loving joke of a system. It seems like the defining goal is just to kill people.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:53
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Epicurius posted:That was a Parliamentarian decision. Which power did the parliamentarian exercise to make that happen?
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Aug 7, 2022 17:55
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DarkCrawler posted:It seems like the defining goal is just to kill people.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:59
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Professor Beetus posted:It's disgusting that I have to hoard expired insulin because I don't know what tomorrow will bring, it's disgusting that anyone has to ration their insulin, and it's disgusting that some unelected gently caress face can just choose to end lives, while trillions of military spending just sails on by because we have infinite money when it's convenient. gently caress this stupid hell country, I'm furious at this poo poo. I'm in the same boat, buddy. It sucks a whole lot. I'm saved slightly here because I never expected them to actually do anything about it so I don't get as disappointed, a system which has once again worked out for me, but it's still awful.
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Aug 7, 2022 18:22
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Seyser Koze posted:Which power did the parliamentarian exercise to make that happen? The ability to say that a price cap on something sold by private industry is not covered in reconciliation. This is only an issue because now thune is getting it stripped to “protect the integrity of the reconciliation process.”
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Aug 7, 2022 18:29
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its really good for democracy that in the one branch that's actually directly elected by popular vote the most powerful person is still an unelected bureaucrat.
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Aug 7, 2022 18:38
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:its really good for democracy that in the one branch that's actually directly elected by popular vote the most powerful person is still an unelected bureaucrat. It's actually not, considering that they serve at the majority leader's pleasure and can be replaced.
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Aug 7, 2022 18:44
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The parliamentarian's word kind of does have to matter if you want reconciliation to mean anything. And if you don't want reconciliation to mean anything, then just abolish the filibuster, since the primary distinguishing factor of the reconciliation procedure is that it's un-filibusterable. Of course, the Dems do not have 50 votes for abolishing the filibuster. Naturally, this also means they wouldn't have 50 votes for seizing control of the rules around a filibuster-evasion procedure and turning it into a full-Calvinball that can be used for anything without limit.
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Aug 7, 2022 18:56
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For what its worth, to the extent that we care about the rules of reconciliation at all, the parliamentarian's ruling is probably correct. There's sometimes a grey area between what is purely a budget item and what is a new program, but a price cap on insulin would pretty clearly be the latter.
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Aug 7, 2022 20:10
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IRA just officially passed. In the end the big changes after all the vote-a-rama bullshit are; 1) Removed the Insulin price cap for private insurance 2) hosed with some of the 15% minimum tax for corporations by excluding corps that are subsidies of Private Equity firms if they have less than a billion in net worth. In the original bill they were included if the subsidies in aggregate had over a billion in net worth. Amendment spearheaded by Thune who got Sinema on board with it and then a bunch of other Senators jumped on it (Warnock, Hassan, Rosen and a few others) 3) They paid for it with a two-year loss limitation extension for some businesses which raises the lost $30 billion and kept everyone happy and avoided a SALT poison pill Thune put in in his amendment Every other change or amendment was voted down.
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Aug 7, 2022 20:23
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The House vote on the package will be on Friday
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Aug 7, 2022 20:34
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I am shocked they passed the bill, even if it is heavily neutered.
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Aug 7, 2022 20:36
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So what’s in the bill?
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Aug 7, 2022 21:36
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Blind Rasputin posted:So what’s in the bill? - A 1% Excise tax on all stock buybacks. - A little less than $400 billion in direct climate change/energy spending (consumer rebates for electric vehicle purchases, funding for research and development, tax credits, etc.) - Authorization for $250 billion in subsidized loans for green energy projects. - Money to revamp IRS enforcement. - Allows oil and gas leases on some federal land and in the Gulf of Mexico. - Caps out of pocket spending for Medicare beneficiaries to $2,000 per year. - Allows Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices (starts with only 10 drugs and expands to cover more over the next 7 years). - 15% corporate minimum tax (only applies to American companies with at least $1 billion in revenue). - Expanding the new income limits, boosted subsidies, and $0 premium/$0 deductible ACA plans for another 3 years. - Caps Insulin costs at $35 for Medicare beneficiaries only (the provision for private insurance was challenged by Republicans and the parliamentarian sided with them that a provision regulating out of pocket costs for private insurance was not related to the federal budget and didn't qualify for reconciliation). - Requires pharmaceutical companies to issue rebates to Medicare enrollees if they raise the price of their drugs more than inflation. - A requirement for the IRS to develop a plan to make a free universal direct online tax filing system with the IRS and present it to Congress by June 2023 (Note: This does not implement the plan. Congress will still have to vote on it in 2023). According to analysts the Inflation Reduction Act: - Will have little to no impact on inflation in the short-term and only a minor reduction in inflation in 2 years. - Would have gotten the U.S. 72% of the way to meeting the Paris Accord Targets by 2030, but because of the additional oil and gas provisions, it will end up getting us 69.7% of the way instead. - Will keep the premiums for most people with ACA plans under $10 per month until 2025. - Will increase IRS collection by about $124 billion. - Will increase corporate tax receipts by about $313 billion. - Will reduce the deficit by about $104 billion. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Aug 7, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 21:57
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Seyser Koze posted:It's actually not, considering that they serve at the majority leader's pleasure and can be replaced. Then why hasn't he? Feels like if that was the honest case then the moment the parliamentarian prevented you from doing something you actually wanted to, like ensuring people don't die from rationing insulin, you could just be like alright, take a hike, I'll get someone in who won't stop me doing this?
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Aug 7, 2022 23:00
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How does the corporate tax minimum work? Edit: what if a company receives massive subsidies like those included in the bill?
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Aug 7, 2022 23:02
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God drat it, who names the bills, it's such a easy target. Name it after something it will least likely do, that's not going to become fodder for opponents, not at all.
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Aug 7, 2022 23:05
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Cpt_Obvious posted:How does the corporate tax minimum work? It depends on the individual case, but subsidies and grants to businesses are usually treated as taxable income. And thr way the corporate tax minimum works is, let's say you're a corporation, and your income is under the minimum amount that you'd need to pay corporate tax (and you fit the other requirements). You still have yo pay the corporate minimum. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Aug 7, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 23:07
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:- A 1% Excise tax on all stock buybacks. Thanks for writing all this out in such an easy to understand way. Really helps. On paper it sounds amazing. I do hope the green energy parts mean in a few years we will see a national EV charging network as good or better than Tesla’s. There’s a gas station on every corner and every few dozen miles on rural roads and other highways. EV stations need to be just as ubiquitous. It would change America.
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Aug 7, 2022 23:17
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I maintain internal combustion engines for a living and really look forward to the day I personally don't have to own any
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Aug 7, 2022 23:27
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where can I look up (outside of reading the bill itself) how much "Allows oil and gas leases on some federal land and in the Gulf of Mexico." of this that is being opened?
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Aug 7, 2022 23:33
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Cpt_Obvious posted:How does the corporate tax minimum work? It is essentially a "book tax," which means they pay it on the the total earnings they report to shareholders. Publicly traded corporations would be required to either use the traditional corporate tax structure of 21% of profits, minus deductions and liabilities; or use the new 15% tax on all reported earnings made in America - whichever of the two is higher. Profits reported for tax purposes are usually different than those reported for earnings, so this is an attempt to catch companies with large incomes (it only applies to companies with at least $1 billion in earnings) who have very low profits for tax purposes (because of deductions, depreciation, large investments in R&D, or liabilities), but higher profits reported to investors. "Book income" doesn't have as much wiggle room for interpretation as taxable income does. This is a kind of weirdly designed tax similar to the Alternative Minimum Tax; it is essentially designed to raise taxes on companies that have huge incomes, but low taxable amounts, without actually reducing/repealing existing tax credits and breaks that other companies use. Subsidies are part of total revenue and add to potential profits. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Aug 7, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 23:38
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World Famous W posted:where can I look up (outside of reading the bill itself) how much "Allows oil and gas leases on some federal land and in the Gulf of Mexico." of this that is being opened? Posted the reuters writeup yesterday: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-bill-could-be-death-blow-biden-anti-drilling-pledge-2022-07-29/ quote:..
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Aug 7, 2022 23:40
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 for writeup and answered questions.
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Aug 7, 2022 23:42
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DarkCrawler posted:It seems like the defining goal is just to kill people. Nah. The goal is to line their pockets and the pockets of their donors. Doing it in a way that kills people is just the fastest way to make it happen.
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Aug 7, 2022 23:47
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World Famous W posted:where can I look up (outside of reading the bill itself) how much "Allows oil and gas leases on some federal land and in the Gulf of Mexico." of this that is being opened? There isn't a specific spot that is being allowed. Essentially, the way it works is: - The feds are already supposed to be auctioning off leases for those spots, but the Biden admin cancelled them due to "expected lack of interest." - The oil/gas changes in the bill are aimed to prevent the executive from unilaterally cancelling sales before they happen and allow leases in certain areas of Alaska and the middle of the ocean in the Gulf of Mexico that the feds have declined to issue leases to use those areas (one because of a court order and the other because of executive decision). Protected areas are still protected, but essentially, they are trying to put a stop to the feds opting-out of holding an auction when someone would likely bid. - To try and enforce point #2, the provisions in the bill don't allow the feds to issue new leases/permits for green energy construction on federal land unless they have held an auction for oil and gas drilling. This would discourage the feds from preemptively canceling auctions and still lease out federal land to energy projects. If nobody bids, then nothing happens. But, they can't not hold the auctions at all. They have to at least hold one auction for leases of a certain size (2 million acres total) in the past year if they want to also lease out federal land for energy projects that aren't oil/gas. The provision expires in 10 years. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Aug 8, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 23:50
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:God drat it, who names the bills, it's such a easy target. Name it after something it will least likely do, that's not going to become fodder for opponents, not at all. lol, Manchin literally named it. It was actually no joke one of his demands to get his vote.
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Aug 7, 2022 23:51
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At the very least Dems are taking what they learned from the PACT Act skirmish and absolutely hammering the GOP on the insulin cap. https://twitter.com/SenWhitehouse/status/1556321089600495622
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Aug 8, 2022 00:00
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Also, to make it as confusing as possible, the 15% corporate minimum tax in the IRA works differently and is not the same as the 15% global corporate minimum tax the U.S. and several dozen other countries agreed to last year. That 15% corporate minimum tax is still bouncing around congress and hasn't actually been approved yet.
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Aug 8, 2022 00:03
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thanks to both
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Aug 8, 2022 00:06
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