USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

«‹›279 »

haveblue: Aug 15, 2005; Toilet Rascal

That was happening to the VA at one point too. The whole government is being literally crushed by paperwork

# ? Aug 10, 2022 00:59

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# ? May 27, 2024 16:41

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

WaPo also has a really interesting and informative story about what the $80 billion going to the IRS in the IRA is for. It starts out with some pretty insane details that you may have already heard about. It then spirals into even crazier territory that you most likely haven't.

One of the main projects is upgrading to a computer system that allows for searching and doesn't require IRS employees to create paper copies of all tax returns and then enter them all manually by hand into the computer system.

Another is to digitize records so that the IRS cafeteria in Austin can reopen because it is currently being used to store paper copies of tax return records. Seriously.

https://twitter.com/b_fung/status/1557041874141155329

Because it's only visiting one relatively well-supported part of the apparatus, this article greatly understates of the scale of the problems at the IRS.

The IDRS (the "green computer interface" from the article), the core taxpayer database, isn't really running on cobol- it's a combination of COBOL code modules stitched together with assembly. IRS has a core team of people who know how to write for IDRS whose job is entirely to keep the commands used in the system (so old that users hit "insert" instead of enter) working with each year's version of the tax code, and, periodically, try to add new commands that will make users' lives easier.
To put this in perspective, IDRS isn't just old. It's the oldest. IDRS is built on an immediate successor to ENIAC; one of the first commercially purchased mainframe computer systems. It was an incredible, light-years-jumping decision at its time. We're still using it. The resulting cancerous network of hardware and software sprawls across the entire country. Last I checked some of the offices in Pennsylvania had to maintain some systems that used reel-to-reel.
IRS has survived the lack of updates to IDRS by building systems that can interact with it and allow data to be exported from and imported into it. Remember, this was originally a single piece of hardware in a single building, with operators. multiple layers of middleware have to exist to even allow someone not onsite with an IDRS machine to send commands into it. IRS has been building and adding this middleware to try to improve operations and streamline processing for fifty years. Layer upon layer upon layer of such systems, each with issues both documented and undocumented, some made competently, some made by predatory contractors.
This also expands horizontally into parallel systems. IRS employee timekeeping has to match time spent to individual taxpayer cases and returns...which means it needs to talk to IDRS and integrate data from it. In some offices, the resulting process involves receiving a fax with timekeeping forms, filling them out with ink, making copies, and then faxing it to another office, daily, because only some employees are able to handle the associated timekeeping software (which is, itself, from the early 80s). People complain about filling out confusing tax forms, but the reality is that the IRS goes out of its way to remove as much complexity from those forms as possible...which means every piece of that complexity is then squeezed, warped and tumorous, through every other part of the agency instead. Every one of these systems has its own series of layers of middleware and both good and bad design, generated over the decades.
The bureaucratic systems of IRS mimic IDRS. The facility and workflow the piece describes is just one of many such facilities and systems at IRS, each with at least partially siloed procedures and documentation and workflows...and websites and tools and intranets and management. Keeping the entire thing from exploding caused fragmentation of oversight, which then fed into itself, getting worse and worse. Some of this is the stereotype of incompetent managers and lazy union employees (sane people don't work there for long, and the process for process improvements is itself difficult to even access), but the truth is almost all the problems are the result of decisions which were made out of necessity or excellent thinking, once upon a time, that could never be revisited because the responsibility was spread too thin or the resources were never made available.

At root, IRS would be unimaginably complex even under ideal circumstances. The Taxpayer Advocate (one of several antagonistic entities set up by Congress to drive change at IRS instead of funding them properly) at one point had a director who had the bright idea of giving taxpayers a "roadmap" of how tax returns are handled; a simplified, clear chart showing the main things that had to happen under normal circumstances, greatly simplified and color-coded to be as easy to follow as possible. This is what it looks like.

This is the system working as intended, the best case scenario, with none of the details of how or why or what happens when anything goes wrong. No other bureaucracy comes close; even the DoD, which is comparably bureaucratic, doesn't have the same sort of verticality to its problems.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Aug 10, 2022

# ? Aug 10, 2022 01:19

Judgy Fucker: Mar 24, 2006

haveblue posted:

That was happening to the VA at one point too. The whole government is being literally crushed by paperwork

I worked in medical billing for a time, and dealing with the VA was a nightmare. Probably 99+% of medical claims are handled electronically from provider-to-insurance. We sent electronic claims to the VA.

During one of my many phone calls with the VA trying to correct a bogus denial they gave us, a rep told me that when they receive these electronic claims, they print every single one out, then re-scan them into their own system, but also keep all the printed claims on file for something dumb like 10 years.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 01:20

Sekhmnet: Jan 22, 2019

haveblue posted:

That was happening to the VA at one point too. The whole government is being literally crushed by paperwork

I seem to remember that some central VA office had to have their floors reinforced to handle the weight of all the paperwork that was building up. Might have been an IRS office though, my memory about it is fuzzy.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 01:23

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

For those of you wondering when life for the Democrats is going to go to poo poo again, one thing to look out for is the monthly CPI information releases. We have one tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/MarketWatch/status/1557161374618456066

quote:

Traders, investors and economists are all counting on Wednesday�s consumer-price index report to show a decline in the annual headline U.S. inflation rate for July. But there�s another figure buried in the consumer-price index data that has the propensity to jolt markets.

It�s called the core year-over-year CPI reading, a measure which strips out volatile food and energy costs. It came in at 5.9% for the 12 months that ended in June, and the consensus view is that it will inch up to 6.1% on a year-over-year basis for July. Gargi Chaudhuri of BlackRock Inc., the world�s largest money manager, sees the core reading coming in even a bit higher, at 6.2%, while a pair of Goldman Sachs analysts are warning that the near-term U.S. inflation picture �is likely to remain uncomfortably high.�

A move higher in the annual CPI core rate would be significant because it would be seen as reflecting the true underlying trend of inflation � while also dashing widespread hopes in financial markets over the past month that price gains have peaked. Many traders and investors have generally been clinging to the overall annual headline CPI rate for July, which includes food and energy � and the view that it probably fell to 8.7% or 8.8%, from an almost 41-year high of 9.1% in June, after factoring in recent declines in gas and commodity prices.

�The outlook for inflation remains the primary concern for investors,� Wilmington Trust Investment Advisors� Chief Investment Officer Tony Roth and Chief Economist Luke Tilley wrote in an email on Tuesday. �Persistent inflation is weighing on sentiment for consumers and businesses, yet economic data remains quite mixed and concerns are elevated that aggressive Fed policy could push the U.S. into recession.�

�While we still expect inflation to decelerate going forward, some components will remain stubbornly high and complicate the outlook,� they said.

Signs of the financial market�s broad-based expectations that inflation is poised to ease are abundant: U.S. stocks have generally rallied from their lows in mid-June, though they finished lower on Tuesday. Meanwhile, medium- and long-term Treasury yields have dropped from their peaks in June � along with break-even rates, according to Tradeweb data.

The "consensus view" seems to underestimate how bad inflation is and the markets have been rallying lately due to expectations that inflation has eased. I have a sinking feeling those good vibes are going to get a reality check tomorrow and that usually puts "INFLATION!!!11!!!" and bad economic sentiment back in the headlines.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 01:52

Twincityhacker: Feb 18, 2011

>>> "built on a immidiate sucesser to ENIAC"

Wow. That's.... wow.

Also I am amazed that none of these offices has gone up in flames and killed someone yet. I worked at a comercial printing company and we had less paper stored more safely than that cafateria.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 02:01

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Interesting Nancy Pelosi interview about her visit to Taiwan, timestamped for content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb02loac8sc&t=310s

She has a unique understanding of her impact on us-china relations and believes she had bipartisan support.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 10, 2022 02:08

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Here's an IRS modernization proposal from GAO that I believe was mostly not followed through on...note the date. A lot (not all) of the hardware mentioned has been replaced over time; the software and infrastructure has not. The companies and models mentioned would be a trip down memory lane, if it weren't for the fact that they're from before most of us were born.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Aug 10, 2022

# ? Aug 10, 2022 02:11

Fritz the Horse: Dec 26, 2019; ... of course!

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Interesting Nancy Pelosi interview about her visit to Taiwan, timestamped for content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb02loac8sc&t=310s

She has a unique understanding of her impact on us-china relations and believes she had bipartisan support.

What is the point you wish to make with this post, or could you summarize what you think is important here that is worth sharing?

edit: you appear to have crossposted this link from CSPAM and provided much more commentary there.

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Aug 10, 2022

# ? Aug 10, 2022 02:31

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Fritz the Horse posted:

What is the point you wish to make with this post, or could you summarize what you think is important here that is worth sharing?

edit: you appear to have crossposted this link from CSPAM and provided much more commentary there.

It's good for a laugh.

She rambles incoherently about China being one of the freest countries in the world and fights with the interviewer when challenged on basic facts like whether her trip affected climate cooperation. All this on the today show, the softest of softball interviews.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 03:16

Fritz the Horse: Dec 26, 2019; ... of course!

Okay then please include that sort of context and commentary when you post here in the future

# ? Aug 10, 2022 03:19

Despera: Jun 6, 2011

Cpt_Obvious posted:

It's good for a laugh.

She rambles incoherently about China being one of the freest countries in the world

Noted China apologist Nancy Pelosi

# ? Aug 10, 2022 03:23

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

She did have bipartisan support, from 26 Republican senators including Mitch.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 03:26

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Interesting Nancy Pelosi interview about her visit to Taiwan, timestamped for content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb02loac8sc&t=310s

She has a unique understanding of her impact on us-china relations and believes she had bipartisan support.

The thing I'm confused about, is how is China's response much different than what they've done time and time again? The interviewer stated

quote:

China has made a series of stunningly aggressive military moves in Taiwan. I mean unprecedented, in terms of the security of Taiwan

But how is this any different than earlier this year, last year, a few years ago, etc. It seems like the news trying to drum up additional drama to get more viewership :shrug:

And why are you implying that she was lying about bipartisan support? She absolutely did have bipartisan support.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Aug 10, 2022

# ? Aug 10, 2022 03:32

Despera: Jun 6, 2011

You obviously knew that Nancy was talking about Taiwan when she said China freedoms, seems a tad disengenuous

# ? Aug 10, 2022 03:41

Despera: Jun 6, 2011

Hey Fritz you should have just told me to make up some bald faced lies about things I posted and that would have satisfied your lack of context/content qualms

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 10, 2022 03:51

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Despera posted:

You obviously knew that Nancy was talking about Taiwan when she said China freedoms, seems a tad disengenuous

# ? Aug 10, 2022 03:59

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

haveblue posted:

It's not even that it's risky, it's that is a large investment of money and manpower that won't pay off for a long time. It's hard to justify when the old dinosaur is still stumbling along mostly working most of the time

Of course this thinking means major overhauls don't happen until the system is displaying glaring problems and very obviously about to collapse, which is where the IRS actually is these days

Oh no, they are absolutely loving terrified of touching the big important systems. Don't even ask what your bank to bank to Fed Reserve computers run on, you don't want to know just how much vital American tech infrastructure dates back to before Captain Crunch first blew his whistle. I guarantee most of that stuff hasn't been touched since 1999, and only then because they had to for Y2K.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 04:46

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Hyrax Attack! posted:

FBI, article from 2005

A big part of why Target's expansion into Canada failed was trying to rollout SAP inventory management at the same time. Lots of empty shelves and baffling shipments.

God I should've taken up the girl's suggestion to get into SAP when I was second shift tech support at a big pharm firm back in the 90s. She was making 125 bucks an hour as a contractor. In 199... 7? 8? I can't even imagine what they make now.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 04:48

Kraftwerk: Aug 13, 2011; i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

I work with SAP for a living until I get my commercial pilot's license. I will be happy to never have to deal with it again.

It's a horribly counterintuitive ERP. It lies to you. Most of your coworkers don't have a loving clue how to work it which means it falls on you to explain everything or do basic things like pull reports and print them for someone who thinks they're too precious to figure out how to do it themselves. I guess I can't complain too much, it's good job security. No SAP deployment has ever gone according to plan and it often breaks way more things than it fixes even if you have perfect planning.

To that end I hope the IRS doesn't try to use SAP as a part of this 80b modernization money because it might be the thing that ends American society as we know it.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 05:43

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Kraftwerk posted:

I work with SAP for a living until I get my commercial pilot's license. I will be happy to never have to deal with it again.

It's a horribly counterintuitive ERP. It lies to you. Most of your coworkers don't have a loving clue how to work it which means it falls on you to explain everything or do basic things like pull reports and print them for someone who thinks they're too precious to figure out how to do it themselves. I guess I can't complain too much, it's good job security. No SAP deployment has ever gone according to plan and it often breaks way more things than it fixes even if you have perfect planning.

To that end I hope the IRS doesn't try to use SAP as a part of this 80b modernization money because it might be the thing that ends American society as we know it.

IT can't be as bad as EPIC. Or Banner. Can it?

# ? Aug 10, 2022 06:00

DeathSandwich: Apr 24, 2008; I fucking hate puzzles.

Oracle posted:

IT can't be as bad as EPIC. Or Banner. Can it?

Different flavors of awful, but mostly yes.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 06:38

-Blackadder-: Jan 2, 2007; Game....Blouses.

Late Tuesday night drop from NYT.

F.B.I. Search of Trump�s Home Pushes Long Conflict Into Public View

Looks like after the initial meeting between the Feds and Trumps lawyers, DOJ subpoenaed MAL surveillance tapes. Probably helped with PC. Be interesting to see what Popehat says in the morning.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 08:03

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

Mike Pompeo of all people was offering to go with Pelosi on her trip to Taiwan. She definitely has bipartisan support.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 09:12

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Charliegrs posted:

Mike Pompeo of all people was offering to go with Pelosi on her trip to Taiwan. She definitely has bipartisan support.

At this point, I feel like 'bipartisan support' for anything should be a massive red flag.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 09:31

GoutPatrol: Oct 17, 2009; *Stupid Babby*

Since people were asking a couple days ago, Jalopnik has made a list of every new car currently that gets the full EV credit.

https://jalopnik.com/every-ev-that-qualifies-for-the-inflation-reduction-act-1849391274

Cadillac Lyriq
Chevrolet Bolt EUV
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Ford F-150 Lightning
Ford Mustang Mach-E
GMC Hummer EV
Lucid Air
Nissan Leaf
Rivian R1S
Rivian R1T
Tesla Model 3
Tesla Model S
Tesla Model X
Tesla Model Y
Volkswagen ID.4

# ? Aug 10, 2022 10:12

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

GoutPatrol posted:

Since people were asking a couple days ago, Jalopnik has made a list of every new car currently that gets the full EV credit.

https://jalopnik.com/every-ev-that-qualifies-for-the-inflation-reduction-act-1849391274

Cadillac Lyriq
Chevrolet Bolt EUV
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Ford F-150 Lightning
Ford Mustang Mach-E
GMC Hummer EV
Lucid Air
Nissan Leaf
Rivian R1S
Rivian R1T
Tesla Model 3
Tesla Model S
Tesla Model X
Tesla Model Y
Volkswagen ID.4

Thanks for this!

The Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf at the basic trim levels actually come in at really good prices post-credit. (~$19.5k to ~$20k).

The Volkswagen and one or two others come in at around a "normal" new car price.

The rest are still pretty expensive at ~$50k to ~$60k. Electric Trucks and SUVs seem to be way way more expensive than an ICE truck compared to Electric Sedans and ICE Sedans.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 12:50

Tayter Swift: Nov 18, 2002; Pillbug

GoutPatrol posted:

Since people were asking a couple days ago, Jalopnik has made a list of every new car currently that gets the full EV credit.

https://jalopnik.com/every-ev-that-qualifies-for-the-inflation-reduction-act-1849391274

The Leaf is on its way out for what it's worth.

Does this mean EVs which qualify today will have that status stripped once the bill is signed? Thinking of say Hyundai's Ionic 5/6, and Nexo, as well as Polestar 1/2.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 13:25

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Tayter Swift posted:

The Leaf is on its way out for what it's worth.

Does this mean EVs which qualify today will have that status stripped once the bill is signed? Thinking of say Hyundai's Ionic 5/6, and Nexo, as well as Polestar 1/2.

They have a transition period to move manufacturing to the US

# ? Aug 10, 2022 13:28

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
THE SPEECH SUPPRESSOR

Remember: it's "antisemitic" to protest genocide as long as the targets are brown.

Hyrax Attack! posted:

A big part of why Target's expansion into Canada failed was trying to rollout SAP inventory management at the same time. Lots of empty shelves and baffling shipments.

The overall reason Target failed in Canada was that the people managing the expansion from Minneapolis completely ignored any local knowledge that didn't match their preconceived notion of what was necessary to expand into Canada. They tried to open all of the stores at once, didn't bother trying to be competitive on price even though that's one of the reasons Canadians love American Target, and had amazingly long supply chains (they supplied their store in Newfoundland from eastern Ontario). The last of these was the reason for a lot of the empty shelves, too.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 13:36

Tayter Swift: Nov 18, 2002; Pillbug

evilweasel posted:

They have a transition period to move manufacturing to the US

I see, thank you.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 13:37

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Tayter Swift posted:

I see, thank you.

To be specific, the sourcing and assembly requirements for the credit kick in in 2024.

Although, the definitions for sourcing are going to be up to the Treasury Department, so depending on how liberal they are with definitions, it will either be a lot more cars/models available or basically none. That's the fun part of not writing your own definitions into statute.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 13:47

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

GoutPatrol posted:

Since people were asking a couple days ago, Jalopnik has made a list of every new car currently that gets the full EV credit.

https://jalopnik.com/every-ev-that-qualifies-for-the-inflation-reduction-act-1849391274

Cadillac Lyriq
Chevrolet Bolt EUV
Chevrolet Bolt EV
Ford F-150 Lightning
Ford Mustang Mach-E
GMC Hummer EV
Lucid Air
Nissan Leaf
Rivian R1S
Rivian R1T
Tesla Model 3
Tesla Model S
Tesla Model X
Tesla Model Y
Volkswagen ID.4

Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
If I wanted to drive a kid-killing death machine I'd drive one of Obama's drones.
If I wanted to drive a kid-killing death machine I'd drive one of Obama's drones.
If I wanted to drive a kid-killing death machine I'd drive one of Obama's drones.
If I wanted to drive a kid-killing death machine I'd drive one of Obama's drones.
Can't afford.

Wow! I'm so lifted out of strife now! Thank God for president Biden!

# ? Aug 10, 2022 14:18

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Lib and let die posted:

Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
Can't afford.
If I wanted to drive a kid-killing death machine I'd drive one of Obama's drones.
If I wanted to drive a kid-killing death machine I'd drive one of Obama's drones.
If I wanted to drive a kid-killing death machine I'd drive one of Obama's drones.
If I wanted to drive a kid-killing death machine I'd drive one of Obama's drones.
Can't afford.

Wow! I'm so lifted out of strife now! Thank God for president Biden!

the bill's aimed at increasing EV demand so that 5-6 years down the line the used car lot that working people get their cars from has a lot more EVs in it.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 14:27

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

New inflation report came in cooler than expected.

Wages still rose and inflation on housing and food still rose, but energy costs fell significantly and wiped out most of the inflation from growing wages, food, and shelter (gasoline fell 7.7%, fuel oil prices fell 11%, natural gas costs fell 3.2%, and "transportation services fell 0.5%).

The two food categories: "Food Prepared at Home" AKA grocery store price and "Food Away From Home" AKA restaurant, takeout, etc. category still posted inflation at 1.3% and 0.7% for the month; which is about where both of them have been for the last 6 months. So, the "food" categories seem to be the one sector that has been steadily increasing in price without any significant drops for the past 6 months.

Even with the significant drop in energy costs, energy-related sources still make up a majority of the total inflation and are still up around 18% from last year (with gas prices still up 44% from last year. Although gas prices were coming from a historic low and that was part of the huge percentage increase, they are still likely to remain elevated and not "officially" drop down on the year-to-year inflation rate until early to mid 2023).

- Unclear what the Fed will do with this new information.
- Pre-market stock indexes are rising dramatically.
- Bond yields are falling to near record lows.
- It's only one month, so it could be fluke or energy prices could shoot up again for some reason.

https://twitter.com/TheStalwart/status/1557343771045535747
https://twitter.com/rortybomb/status/1557345558280507394

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Aug 10, 2022

# ? Aug 10, 2022 14:28

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Lib and let die posted:

LALD, can you please try to add at least something that can be discussed in addition to the joke? Just a heads up because nobody can really reply to that post with anything.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 14:33

Dietrich: Sep 11, 2001

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

the bill's aimed at increasing EV demand so that 5-6 years down the line the used car lot that working people get their cars from has a lot more EVs in it.

The article says that the two chevies and the nissan will be around $20k with the rebates, which is like entry level corolla prices. This is actually a really good deal.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 14:46

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Dietrich posted:

The article says that the two chevies and the nissan will be around $20k with the rebates, which is like entry level corolla prices. This is actually a really good deal.

The lowest trim bolt is $18,100 with the rebate. That's a really solid deal.

I'm not getting an EV anytime soon, but maybe in a few years when they have more entry-level models and the batteries are cheaper, if I need a new car, then getting an EV sedan for around $16k out of pocket after dealer incentives means there is basically no reason to buy a new ICE sedan again.

Hopefully, by the time I am in the market for a new car, there will be enough of a used supply that I can get one for ~$8k to $10k after rebate. Since, I prefer to buy used and drive them into the ground.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 14:55

Riven: Apr 22, 2002

Yep we�re getting a Bolt EUV for sure now. Especially since they dropped the price on 2023 models to accommodate for losing the subsidy, and now you get the price drop and the subsidy.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 14:57

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 27, 2024 16:41

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Lib and let die posted:

Wow! I'm so lifted out of strife now! Thank God for president Biden!

avoiding/reducing climate change is the goal

it should be judged on that basis rather than complaining "does this give money to me, personally? no? then what good is it, who cares about the climate????" in a manner indistinguishable from a hard-core republican primary voter

it turns out that it may, in fact, matter to you if the climate changes

evilweasel fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Aug 10, 2022

# ? Aug 10, 2022 14:58

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

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