Convicted Felon Donald Trump Legal Troubles: Trump Wins Unanimous Vote

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Convicted Felon Donald Trump Legal Troubles: Trump Wins Unanimous Vote

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slurm: Jul 28, 2022; by Hand Knit

mdemone posted:

Not for nuclear tech. Atomic Energy Act says that stuff cannot be unilaterally declassified.

I thought you needed an amendment to beat 6-3 "the Atomic Energy Act is unconstitutional"?

# ? Aug 12, 2022 03:40

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 01:58

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

slurm posted:

I thought you needed an amendment to beat 6-3 "the Atomic Energy Act is unconstitutional"?

Elaborate on how that comes before the court.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 03:42

Dr. Faustus: Feb 18, 2001; Grimey Drawer

Hell on Earth.

E: :stonklol:

Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Aug 12, 2022

# ? Aug 12, 2022 03:44

slurm: Jul 28, 2022; by Hand Knit

mdemone posted:

Elaborate on how that comes before the court.

Trump gets charged with anything by the feds and he just appeals it up through his captured judiciary to the highest level on the grounds of his theory of presidential immunity or whatever dumb poo poo and the chudges let him off and the dems congratulate them on upholding the dignity of the presidency

# ? Aug 12, 2022 03:46

Judge Schnoopy: Nov 2, 2005; dont even TRY it, pal

slurm posted:

Trump gets charged with anything by the feds and he just appeals it up through his captured judiciary to the highest level on the grounds of his theory of presidential immunity or whatever dumb poo poo and the chudges let him off and the dems congratulate them on upholding the dignity of the presidency

Just like election fraud claims made it up to the supreme court to rule that Trump is still president?

When you get laughed out of court, it's tough to make it to the final stage.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 04:01

Mirotic: Mar 8, 2013

The NYT is now backing up that they were looking for highly sensitive materials (archive.org version here). They do NOT use the word nuclear, but they DO use the following language...

NYT posted:

Mr. Garland provided no details, but the person briefed on the matter said investigators had been concerned about material from what the government calls “special access programs,” a designation even more classified than “top secret” that is typically reserved for extremely sensitive operations carried out by the United States abroad.

They are going out with only one source on this, so they are pretty drat sure that source is legit. (also, everyone act shocked that Maggie Haberman is on the byline, albeit shared.)

# ? Aug 12, 2022 04:07

James Garfield: May 5, 2012; Am I a manipulative abuser in real life, or do I just roleplay one on the Internet for fun? You decide!

James Garfield posted:

Trump allies say he declassified Mar-a-Lago documents. Experts say it's unclear whether that will hold up.

Oh well the documents the FBI planted at Mar-a-Lago just happened to be documents that Trump had declassified, what a rookie mistake

forgot to include this part

quote:

The Heritage Foundation's Stimson has a different view, given that Trump was once "the ultimate declassification authority."

�If any president decides to declassify a document and doesn�t tell anybody � but he has made the decision to declassify something � then the document is declassified,� Stimson said.

He added that �there�s a rich debate about whether or not a document is declassified if a president has decided but not communicated it outside of his own head,� but Stimson said he would rather be the defense than the prosecution if the dispute ever went to trial.

Maybe Trump used his psychic powers to declassify the documents

# ? Aug 12, 2022 04:09

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

While the court would probably issue a boring "presidents can't be charged for breaking that law" opinion if they want to protect Trump, it would be funny if they ruled that stealing nuclear secrets from the Great Satan is not a crime because it's a noble service to the international community

# ? Aug 12, 2022 04:15

Quorum: Sep 24, 2014; REMIND ME AGAIN HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE?

James Garfield posted:

forgot to include this part

Maybe Trump used his psychic powers to declassify the documents

I doubt it's coincidental that this argument is exactly identical to the argument that if a president pardons someone in the woods and nobody hears it, it was still a beautiful pardon.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 04:16

J.A.B.C.: Jul 2, 2007; There's no need to rush to be an adult.

Of course they asked the Heritage Foundation, a group of theocratic asshats, about how this isn't actually illegal when a Republican does it.

Bet you they were calling for Hillary's head during the e-mail scandal.

Edit: Like clockwork-

National Review posted:

Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton insists she did nothing wrong by running all of her government communications, including classified material, through her unsecured, home-brewed computer server. Perhaps she’s forgotten one of her husband’s final acts in the Oval Office: issuing a presidential pardon to former CIA director John Deutch.

Deutch’s offense? Keeping classified material on unsecured home computers.
The pardon came just as Deutch was reportedly going to cop a plea with the Justice Department.

Deutch headed the CIA from May 1995 to December 1996. Several days after he left the agency, classified material was discovered on a government-owned computer at his house in Bethesda, Md. Additionally, unsecured classified magnetic media were found in the study. According to the CIA inspector general’s report, the computer had been “designated for unclassified use only.”

Unlike the current administration’s six-month delay in obtaining Clinton’s computer, the feds moved almost immediately in the Deutch case. Within ten days of discovering the errant material, they retrieved the hard drive from Deutch’s computer. A formal security investigation was opened within a month.

Notice that the government didn’t let Deutch’s lawyer pick and choose which e-mail communications to turn over. Rather, a “technical exploitation team, consisting of personnel expert in data recovery, retrieved the data from Deutch’s unclassified magnetic media and computers.”
As the investigation progressed, the IG discovered that Deutch had “continuously processed classified information on government-owned desktop computers configured for unclassified use during his tenure as DCI [director, CIA] [and that] . . . these unclassified computers were located in [his] Bethesda, Maryland and Belmont, Massachusetts residences, his offices in the Old Executive Office Building, and at CIA Headquarters.”

Notice that the government didn’t let Deutch’s lawyer pick and choose which e-mail communications to turn over.

The computers, as configured and used, were “vulnerable to attacks by unauthorized persons.” The report stressed that “all [computers] were connected to or contained modems that allowed external connectivity to computer networks such as the Internet.” The information the security team retrieved from these computers included “Top Secret communications intelligence” as well as information on the “National Reconnaissance Program.”

The IG criticized senior CIA officials for not taking appropriate action against Deutch when they were apprised of the results of the security investigation. That was one of the reasons the IG “initiated an independent investigation.”

The Deutch IG report contains a useful discussion of federal laws that may be violated by handling classified material on a home computer. There’s 18 U.S.C. §793, which makes it a criminal offense “through gross negligence” to allow defense information “to be removed from its proper place of custody.” An unsecured personal computer is obviously not a “proper place of custody,” as John Deutch discovered. Note that no intentional misconduct is required; just gross negligence.

Additionally, 18 U.S.C. §1924 applies to an officer of the United States. Any such officer who “by virtue of his office . . . becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information [and] knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location” can be fined or imprisoned for not more than one year, making it a misdemeanor.

The IG report lists additional laws, regulations, and policies regarding the handling of classified material. All of them require government personnel to handle such information “in a secure manner” so that “unauthorized persons are not afforded access to such materials.”
And there’s one more strikingly relevant admonition in this 15-year-old IG report.

When the CIA first discovered classified materials on an unsecure computer, the legal adviser for the CIA’s Office of Personnel Security told the officials and investigators launching the investigation that, because this case involved a very senior administration official, their actions would be “scrutinized very closely.” Therefore, he stressed, “the security investigation of this case must follow the same pattern established in other cases where employees have placed classified information on a computer and possibly exposed that information to access by unauthorized individuals.”

The IG criticized senior CIA officials, including its executive director and general counsel, however, for not submitting a report to the Justice Department after the investigation had concluded that “there was a reasonable basis to believe that Deutch’s mishandling of classified information violated the standards prescribed.” This had the result of “delaying a prompt and thorough investigation.”

“Prompt and thorough” are not words that leap to mind when thinking of the investigation into how Hillary Clinton handled classified material while serving as secretary of state. We know that her legal team deleted from the home server e-mail communications that they, in their sole determination, decided were personal and not related to State Department business. The FBI took possession of the server only this week. Unless the agency is somehow able to recover all of the e-mails on the reportedly “wiped” server, we may never know if those determinations were correct.
#related#If e-mails related to State Department business were deleted, however, then there is another similar case that should be kept in mind. In 2013, the former head of the Office of Special Counsel, Scott Bloch, pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of destroying government property. He had hired an outside computer company to delete his files from a government computer.

What is clear is that a serious investigation must be conducted by the FBI and the Justice Department. As former attorney general Michael Mukasey opined recently in the Wall Street Journal, “once you assume public office, your communications about anything having to do with your job are not your personal business or property. They are the public’s business and the public’s property, and are to be treated as no different from communications of like sensitivity.”

— Hans A. von Spakovsky is a senior legal fellow at the Heritage Foundation and the co-author of Obama’s Enforcer: Eric Holder’s Justice Department. Charles Stimson is a senior legal fellow and manager of the National Security Law Program at Heritage

J.A.B.C. fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Aug 12, 2022

# ? Aug 12, 2022 04:18

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

What if the informant who told DoJ where and what documents Trump had was one of the Saudi�s he tried to pawn the off on?

I could see a strategic decision by Saudi to dump Trump in the biggliest way they could to make nice and since anyone with half a brain should be wary of doing deals with Trump.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 04:38

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

Murgos posted:

What if the informant who told DoJ where and what documents Trump had was one of the Saudi’s he tried to pawn the off on?

I could see a strategic decision by Saudi to dump Trump in the biggliest way they could to make nice and since anyone with half a brain should be wary of doing deals with Trump.

Trump was the greatest thing to happen to the Saudis since they found all that oil beneath their feet why would they want to screw him over?

# ? Aug 12, 2022 05:01

OgNar: Oct 26, 2002; They tapdance not, neither do they fart

And now we know why Kushner got that 2b from the Saudis that seemed a little sketchy a few months back.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/10/us/jared-kushner-saudi-investment-fund.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-11/how-did-jared-kushner-get-2-billion-from-the-saudis

# ? Aug 12, 2022 05:44

AsInHowe: Jan 11, 2007; red winged angel

https://mobile.twitter.com/benschwartz_/status/1557881231219470336

# ? Aug 12, 2022 05:45

Madkal: Feb 11, 2008; Fallen Rib

AsInHowe posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/benschwartz_/status/1557881231219470336

The random use of the word cancelled is just too much. I can't stop laughing.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 05:55

cr0y: Mar 24, 2005

# ? Aug 12, 2022 06:38

Uglycat: Dec 4, 2000; MORE INDISPUTABLE PROOF I AM BAD AT POSTING
---------------->

So if he argues that he declassified it all, and for some reason(???) that argument works(!?),

We get to see all of the dox, yeah? Like, all of them?

# ? Aug 12, 2022 06:45

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

The fake news media wants to CANCEL LIBRARIES. A facilitily I've never been in.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 06:47

cant cook creole bream: Aug 15, 2011; I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

Uglycat posted:

So if he argues that he declassified it all, and for some reason(???) that argument works(!?),

We get to see all of the dox, yeah? Like, all of them?

I am curious about that too. If it is declassified public information, relevant to an investigation, it should be open, right?

There's probably a full list of the people from witness protection and one for all international spies in there.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 06:52

Uglycat: Dec 4, 2000; MORE INDISPUTABLE PROOF I AM BAD AT POSTING
---------------->

cant cook creole bream posted:

I am curious about that too. If it is declassified public information, relevant to an investigation, it should be open, right?

There's probably a full list of the people from witness protection and one for all international spies in there.

And until we see the contents the right wing can exploit the uap "disclosure" stuff they're clearly invested in.

Or make up whatever.

And since Donald Trump is the enemy of the United States (insofar as his efforts clearly serve to undermine the institutions and void the documents that comprise the "United States"), if all the files all get declassified his masters still get to call it a "win" (as docs this secret are likely to have diplomatic and political fallout).

But it won't happen that way, there's zero chance the "I totally declassified all this" argument isn't laughed out of court, right?

And when it's ruled that it's classified, the fascists can then paint whatever picture they want about the classified stuff. And there will be a brief window where senate Republicans could (but obviously won't lol) spare everyone by impeaching and convicting and forbidding him from running for office. And then the Biden admin could wash their hands of it and not pursue charges. But the Republicans will continue to defend Trump and run interference, so it's gotta be federal charges.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 07:07

cr0y: Mar 24, 2005

The poo poo wasn't declassified. It's been said before but declassifying stuff is a formal process and doesn't apply the same way to nuclear secrets. Plus if it WAS declassified the FBI would obviously know and not, you know, raid his house to recover declassified documents.

If this stuff is related to any of our nuclear weapons systems or strategies he or his minions had to do A LOT of work to get their hands on physical copies of those documents. This poo poo doesn't just live in some random desk drawer at the white house.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 07:17

Rich Uncle Chet: Jan 20, 2005; The Law? Law is a Human Institution.

AsInHowe posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/benschwartz_/status/1557881231219470336

You can't cut back on documents! YOU WILL REGRET THIS

# ? Aug 12, 2022 07:18

PhantomOfTheCopier: Aug 13, 2008; Pikabooze!

My artistic mind is already shut down tonight, but I envision a meme noting "all roads lead to prison", both for Trump and Capone. If the DOJ has been "busy" with this stuff, all the more reason to have let the Jan6 committee do their thing.

Tax documents opening. Stolen/classified documents opening (at least for investigation). Phone records and text messages opening. (Deleted text messages, still will be waiting a while on those prosecutions). There's a certain point where it would be safer to talk in the depositions, because the way things stand now it would take a fairly "woke liberal judge or grand jury" to block anyone from crawling up Trump's rear end with a microscope. At least if you talk and are found guilty of jaywalking, maybe they won't keep looking for documents.

Geez, too bad all Trump's obstruction has invariably led to half a dozen simultaneous investigations. "Oops I treaded on myself" indeed.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 07:44

piL: Sep 20, 2007; (__|\\\\); Taco Defender

The rules governing Classified National Security Information are real fucky and I'm not optimistic about how the interaction of rules established primarily through executive order will hold up.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 08:04

Konomex: Oct 25, 2010; a whiteman who has some authority over others, who not only hasn't raped anyone, or stared at them creepily...

James Garfield posted:

forgot to include this part

Maybe Trump used his psychic powers to declassify the documents

By this same insane idiotic argument, if the next President then decides to classify those documents but doesn't tell anyone outside of his own head, can he effectively jail anyone just because?

# ? Aug 12, 2022 08:23

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

If the president does it, that means it's not illegal. :eng101:

# ? Aug 12, 2022 09:03

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

At this point it feels like you can directly measure the corruption level of a regime based on how easy it is to bring charges against it's head of state.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 09:51

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Gort posted:

At this point it feels like you can directly measure the corruption level of a regime based on how easy it is to bring charges against it's head of state.

Right. South Korea and Israel are way the gently caress less corrupt that the US.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 13:08

Mercury_Storm: Jun 12, 2003; *chomp chomp chomp*

Front page, main story on The Guardian right now:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/12/fbi-search-trump-mar-a-lago-home-classified-nuclear-weapons-documents-report

quote:

Trump was particularly fixated on the US nuclear arsenal while he was in the White House, and boasted about being privy to highly secret information.

In the summer of 2017 he told US military leaders he wanted an arsenal comparable to its cold war peak, which would have involved a ten-fold increase, a demand that reportedly led the then secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, describe him as a �loving moron�. Trump publicly threatened to obliterate both North Korea and Afghanistan.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 14:07

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

AsInHowe posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/benschwartz_/status/1557881231219470336

Presidential libraries do indeed contain classified materials that can only be accessed with proper authorization. Those documents are assembled and maintained with the help of the national archive, not in opposition to it.

Edit: I guess this is Trump�s poor attempt to claim he was just holding those documents for his library to give the RWM something to poo poo up the narrative with?

Murgos fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Aug 12, 2022

# ? Aug 12, 2022 15:15

Quorum: Sep 24, 2014; REMIND ME AGAIN HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE?

Murgos posted:

Presidential libraries do indeed contain classified materials that can only be accessed with proper authorization. Those documents are assembled and maintained with the help of the national archive, not in opposition to it.

In fact, Presidential libraries are administered by NARA and are part of the National Archives system (along with the main Archives, satellite record curation facilities, and the regional Federal Records Centers), although they're built and subsidized by private foundations and endowments. Documents in a Presidential library are still in the Archivist's custody, legally.

source: am nerd

# ? Aug 12, 2022 15:23

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Quorum posted:

In fact, Presidential libraries are administered by NARA and are part of the National Archives system (along with the main Archives, satellite record curation facilities, and the regional Federal Records Centers), although they're built and subsidized by private foundations and endowments. Documents in a Presidential library are still in the Archivist's custody, legally.

source: am nerd

Now this is the red meat I still come to these forums for.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 16:03

AsInHowe: Jan 11, 2007; red winged angel

Quorum posted:

In fact, Presidential libraries are administered by NARA and are part of the National Archives system (along with the main Archives, satellite record curation facilities, and the regional Federal Records Centers), although they're built and subsidized by private foundations and endowments. Documents in a Presidential library are still in the Archivist's custody, legally.

source: am nerd

It's why Gerald Ford has two locations for his, a museum in Grand Rapids (his hometown) and a library in Ann Arbor (his alma mater, Go Blue). The museum is along the river in Grand Rapids and is designed as more of an attraction, whereas the library is designed to be more accessible for university researchers.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 16:09

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

How do presidential libraries work? Can I just walk into Obama's library in Chicago and start reading documents or is there a special process I would have to follow?

# ? Aug 12, 2022 17:14

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

So, there�s some reporting that the FBI allowed the MAL security CCTV system to stay on during the search so there are receipts of the FBI activities and Trump has not mentioned this or released any footage of it. Despite his claims of improper behavior.

Hmm. :thunk:

# ? Aug 12, 2022 17:20

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

HonorableTB posted:

How do presidential libraries work? Can I just walk into Obama's library in Chicago and start reading documents or is there a special process I would have to follow?

There is the public facing part like a museum display and then the research library part, I think.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 17:22

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

HonorableTB posted:

How do presidential libraries work? Can I just walk into Obama's library in Chicago and start reading documents or is there a special process I would have to follow?

There's public areas and less public research areas. You can just wander in and read a bunch of stuff. More esoteric requests generally need an appointment as the librarians may have to dig it out of storage somewhere. There may be some stuff restricted to people with proper credentials, but I don't know about that.

The point of it is to be a single source for all documents related to the president, so it's all available one way or another.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 17:24

Mooseontheloose: May 13, 2003

HonorableTB posted:

How do presidential libraries work? Can I just walk into Obama's library in Chicago and start reading documents or is there a special process I would have to follow?

If you are doing research too you have to be somewhat specific in your requests, like a real library saying something like I want all books on American History. For classified information, you have to specific in what you are researching and what document you are looking for (if it even exists!) and if there is classified information than it has to go through a FOIA process I think?

# ? Aug 12, 2022 17:35

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

I spent a week working at the Nixon library in Yorba Linda* a few years ago, and the process is much as has been described by others. The public-facing part which any yahoo off the street can just wander into is basically a museum about the man and his career, while I and other researchers had a separate reading room to work in. They have a system of finding aids so you get an overview of the material before filling out pull requests which the archivists bring out for you at certain points throughout the day. I had to make arrangements with them beforehand but it was pretty straightforward, and some documents were technically still sensitive enough that I wasn't allowed to photograph them (though I could view and copy out to my heart's content), or had to put this little disclaimer card on top of them before taking a photo who's purpose I no longer remember.

*Each day I drove past a sign for the Water District HQ, the significance of which other ancient goons like me will immediately recognize.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 17:46

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 01:58

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

I went to the JFK library and didn't get to see any of the "library" part. Wasn't even obvious where the other stuff was, like they'd let you walk around the NY public library but you couldn't see poo poo there.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 17:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Convicted Felon Donald Trump Legal Troubles: Trump Wins Unanimous Vote

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