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Even in tech where job hopping is pretty normalized, the more experienced and senior you get the less advantageous it becomes and more risky it gets to have a resume without holding down a job for more than a year or two. Early career I totally expect someone to be moving frequently because that’s just how the game is played to accelerate your career and comp. But you start to hit a ceiling somewhere around the senior/staff level, where tenure and depth become necessary. At the like the staff or principal level, where it takes years to settle in to a domain and become an expert, moving around every year isn’t going to look good. It still happens but it’s less the norm than at junior levels. Like anything, the answer is “it depends”. 10 years in one place does not make you “unhireable” but you should hopefully have a lot of depth and growth to show for it. If that’s the case I think it makes you look very valuable to the right type of company.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:34
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Going to absolutely echo that it depends on the career. I am an oncology pharmacist who moved after 10 years because I wanted to move back to my hometown. Four job interviews scheduled within two weeks. One interviewer flat out told me that people like me with that much experience don't come around very often so they wanted to move quick before another health system hired me.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:36
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The 18 month job hoppers are always interesting to me since I’m absolutely not wired that way. Assuming a 90 day ramp up period and 90 days for job searching, 1/3 of the time spent at stop is fairly unproductive. From anecdotal observations it does seem to be a good way to make a lot of money fast, though.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:50
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this isn't really a directed question, but are HR people actually insane? Like I feel like you actually have to be a sociopath to do that job
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Aug 12, 2022 18:20
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kalel posted:this isn't really a directed question, but are HR people actually insane? Like I feel like you actually have to be a sociopath to do that job I try to not talk to them when possible, but the ones at J&J were definitely sociopaths. Like, I think the head of HR at my site would legit have killed baby animals for pleasure if it wasn't career-suboptimal.
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Aug 12, 2022 18:29
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People at the bottom to middle in HR are generally not sociopaths, just extraordinarily lazy. Laziness and total lack of imagination are actually the primary traits they're selected for by the sociopaths that hold the higher HR positions. Who themselves are not objectively lazy, but they're lazier than the more active sociopaths atop the operations hierarchies. HR is fundamentally about rent seeking. HR are corporate bouncers. Their fundamental job is passive, and if you do anything that actually makes them do work you will royally piss them off.
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Aug 12, 2022 18:48
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Eric the Mauve posted:People at the bottom to middle in HR are generally not sociopaths, just extraordinarily lazy. Laziness and total lack of imagination are actually the primary traits they're selected for by the sociopaths that hold the higher HR positions. Who themselves are not objectively lazy, but they're lazier than the more active sociopaths atop the operations hierarchies. HR is fundamentally about rent seeking. My previous company's HR: #1 - Arranged for a lunch gazebo to be built out front the facility, and then banned people from eating at it, because it was just to make a good impression on visitors and prospective employees. #2 - Took away the (honestly sub-par) fitness center and expanded the HR interview offices into the space. They spent more on the HR offices than most other areas of the building, because they considered those to be a first-impression area. #3 - Had an all-hands meeting after the corporate morale survey showed that everyone was unhappy. They used the meeting to tell everyone they were lucky to have jobs, and if they didn't cheer up there would be consequences. #4 - Related to #3 - they were required by Home Office to hold group sessions for people to voice concerns/suggestions to fix morale. In the one I attended, HR started it out by informing everyone that these group sessions were not to involve any suggestions or criticism, and they recommended that everyone stay silent. The engineer who spoke up anyway was fired two weeks later. #5 - Treated delivery people like poo poo to the point that we were actually blacklisted by one local pizza place. The head of HR literally thought that "delivery people should neither be seen nor heard; the food should appear as close to invisibly as possible," and he'd chew people out if they made noise while delivering food to meetings. I know this because I helped an overloaded delivery guy carry things to a meeting room, and the HR director tried to go off at me outside the meeting room because he heard me talking in the hallway. "I work here and am helping the guy out. Get over yourself," and I went back to my trailer behind the factory. Also, remember from the corporate thread: "ZERO DEFECTS" parking spot directly next to the handicapped spot. HR had to sign off on that. 
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Aug 12, 2022 18:58
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Sundae posted:Also, remember from the corporate thread: "ZERO DEFECTS" parking spot directly next to the handicapped spot. HR had to sign off on that. What thread is this?
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Aug 12, 2022 19:05
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Quackles posted:What thread is this? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3295066&pagenumber=803&perpage=40#post490221966 That post and then two down from there for the actual mascot drawing.
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Aug 12, 2022 20:00
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The receiver of that advice is quite high up in accounting. I could see a problem if they might be too deep in that company’s particular systems and potential new employers worry about transfer of skills? I’m trying to convince them to have someone do their resume as I feel that will bridge most gaps and hopefully quell any potential fears. And I’m poking them to consider moving because the company sucks and is defiant about doing better.
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Aug 12, 2022 20:27
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Here's what I do in HR: review resumes, interview candidates, handle all the onboarding (set up direct deposit, basic account information, pay rates, legal docs for compliance), deal with setting up your Healthcare and elective benefit deductions, answer your questions about the health plan (what's a deductible, is this covered, do I need to pre-authorize this, where can I go for treatment), walk through proper discipline (no you can't just fire someone on a hunch, here's the process you need to go through that does require having a conversation with the employee), help employees understand FMLA, respond to all those requests, track time off, create the organization's ADA policy and procedure, along with reviewing the medical docs and talking to hiring managers about reasonable accommodations, do market reviews for benefits and comp to keep the org at least somewhat competitive based on the budget we are given, and handle open enrollment along with education on all the benefit offerings. Oh I also did orientation and handled parts of payroll. This is in addition to being used as a counselor by employees who just want to come by and complain about things. This isn't even touching performance reviews and a host of other things HR is usually responsible for too. So I get bashing on HR and thinking they are lazy, but there is a poo poo ton of work that goes into the field that most employees don't think about until something goes wrong.
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Aug 13, 2022 00:53
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^^^My company's HR had successfully pushed the majority of that work onto middle management, you can do much better
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Aug 13, 2022 03:36
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Sure, there is lovely HR, and I believe a lot of HR is lovely because the typical evolution of a company is to have the admin assistant and finance handle hr poo poo. When the company starts expanding, the admin person becomes the HR person, who is used to kissing the CEOs rear end and does whatever they or anyone else in authority say. But when I read several posts in a row about how HR is lazy as gently caress and doesn't do anything, I gotta speak up because it's the same concept as "Well none of our computers have had issues for a while, why do we even pay IT people?" I get that it's generally an adversarial relationship, but I've always been pro labor and do whatever I can for the employees so they don't get hosed over. Like, a huge portion of time is taken out of my day to help people navigate things that I could just dump off elsewhere, so when I see things saying I'm a lazy sociopath for being in this field, when the whole point of it is to be a bridge between staff and upper management (people who take their own poo poo and write on the bathroom walls vs people so out of touch they think a 5% raise for employees making 12 an hour is great!), is a little insulting. And I happen to like puppies and kittens, thanks.
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Aug 13, 2022 04:00
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Parallel, I like you. You're a cool and good guy. You add more value to this forum than I do, probably. I wish to the gods you or someone like you had been my assigned HR rep at any job I've ever had. I'm sorry I'm offending you and maybe making an enemy of you. I don't think you're aware of just how much the exception you are in your chosen field. I actually predict you will leave it in the not too distant future, and end up happier in some other field. No one ever called you lazy, or a sociopath, or a lazy sociopath. Do you really think all of the people working beside and above you in HR are just like you, though? HR isn't a bridge between low level staff and upper management, though. It's a stake wall around the latter, pointed at the former. That's fundamental. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 04:34
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Parallelwoody posted:Sure, there is lovely HR, and I believe a lot of HR is lovely because the typical evolution of a company is to have the admin assistant and finance handle hr poo poo. When the company starts expanding, the admin person becomes the HR person, who is used to kissing the CEOs rear end and does whatever they or anyone else in authority say. But when I read several posts in a row about how HR is lazy as gently caress and doesn't do anything, I gotta speak up because it's the same concept as "Well none of our computers have had issues for a while, why do we even pay IT people?" I get that it's generally an adversarial relationship, but I've always been pro labor and do whatever I can for the employees so they don't get hosed over. Like, a huge portion of time is taken out of my day to help people navigate things that I could just dump off elsewhere, so when I see things saying I'm a lazy sociopath for being in this field, when the whole point of it is to be a bridge between staff and upper management (people who take their own poo poo and write on the bathroom walls vs people so out of touch they think a 5% raise for employees making 12 an hour is great!), is a little insulting. And I happen to like puppies and kittens, thanks. If this is your perspective, then please take it as given that you're not the sort of HR person we're talking about. At my third employer, I literally had HR people tell me, to my face, that employees don't matter. That was on top of all the stuff in my previous post (that was all just one of my employers.) At my first employer, a HR guy accidentally sent out a site-wide email in which he and a senior exec were referring to the scientists as "larvae." At my second employer, HR worked with Ops management to create a burn rate chart, which was used to determine how long you could ride employees on the manufacturing floor before you should proactively replace them. They applied equipment preventative maintenance procedures to humans, and HR signed off on that. You may be labor-oriented, and if so, thanks for being a decent human being. I don't know you outside the internet, though; all I can say is that until my current employer, I had a 100% "HR are evil fuckers" rate as a department. Any good individuals were drowned out by the corporate bullshit their department pushes out. (The only reason I exclude my current employer, btw, is because I haven't had to deal with them since they hired me. That's probably the best I could ask for.)
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Aug 13, 2022 04:45
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Everybody's job is stupid and evil except mine.
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Aug 13, 2022 04:52
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Democratic Pirate posted:The 18 month job hoppers are always interesting to me since I’m absolutely not wired that way. Assuming a 90 day ramp up period and 90 days for job searching, 1/3 of the time spent at stop is fairly unproductive. From anecdotal observations it does seem to be a good way to make a lot of money fast, though. I spent ~14 months at my last place and did very high quality work. I had good bullet points for my work when I left. Parallelwoody posted:Sure, there is lovely HR, and I believe a lot of HR is lovely because the typical evolution of a company is to have the admin assistant and finance handle hr poo poo. When the company starts expanding, the admin person becomes the HR person, who is used to kissing the CEOs rear end and does whatever they or anyone else in authority say. But when I read several posts in a row about how HR is lazy as gently caress and doesn't do anything, I gotta speak up because it's the same concept as "Well none of our computers have had issues for a while, why do we even pay IT people?" I get that it's generally an adversarial relationship, but I've always been pro labor and do whatever I can for the employees so they don't get hosed over. Like, a huge portion of time is taken out of my day to help people navigate things that I could just dump off elsewhere, so when I see things saying I'm a lazy sociopath for being in this field, when the whole point of it is to be a bridge between staff and upper management (people who take their own poo poo and write on the bathroom walls vs people so out of touch they think a 5% raise for employees making 12 an hour is great!), is a little insulting. And I happen to like puppies and kittens, thanks. Also, this is fair. Even in the place I left after that short time and was salty about my salary and lack of raises for my work, I did not specifically feel HR was the ones blocking me; I'm fairly certain it was the cheap-rear end CEO and I doubt HR could have done much to change his mind. HR lead a lot to benefit the company morale. edit: HR is a land of contrassts!
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Aug 13, 2022 04:54
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Lockback posted:Everybody's job is stupid and evil except mine. Speak for yourself. I've probably killed children without knowing it, which makes me both stupid and evil. 
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Aug 13, 2022 05:08
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Even if you are personally doing a wonderful job HR's function implements loads of anti-employee practices at the behest of senior management.
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Aug 13, 2022 05:14
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That's the point I'm trying to get across: the actual function of HR is to convince upper management to invest in their employees in order to raise profit. Nothing I've seen has led me to believe that those two goals aren't complementary, despite the poo poo that gets thrown around. Raising employee engagement reduces turnover, and turnover is EXPENSIVE. Saying we implements "loads" of anti-employee measures only makes sense if you have a department that is bootlicking. Which again, I think a lot are due to the evolution of several hr departments and companies, but when you have actual professionals in there, doesn't happen. I've made several arguments about how it's absolutely stupid we are forcing people to come in to the office, and even in a rural area paying under $15 an hour for any position we have is absolutely embarrassing. No I'm not really personally offended that people are anti HR (and you should be until proven otherwise), but saying we are all sociopaths and poo poo is a little too far. Its the same as anywhere else, plenty of trash people who don't know what they are doing, except in HR there's no barrier to entry with opportunities for Karens to advance based on nothing, and it hurts the entire field. I've spent a significant amount of time giving my coworkers advice I picked up from this thread on how to negotiate against my boss or another company, including reviewing their resumes and giving them tips on how to improve them.
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Aug 13, 2022 06:41
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All this HR talk reminds me of the place I was interviewing for recently, where the local HR lady was sort of leading the hiring process, but had completely different expectations of the role than the parent corp did. Yet she made it seem like her requirements were the main job (She was basically going on and on about how a large part of the job is helping her and her colleagues figure out how to do basic computering, despite this not being part of the actual role. Also mentioned at one point that I should expect some amount of verbal abuse, but that they would have my back on that). When I talked to the actual superior, the whole job description took a 180°. In the end, the local HR lady is the one setting the pay for the role so it was a lolnope in many regards
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Aug 13, 2022 06:58
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Lockback posted:Everybody's job is stupid and evil except mine. Was gonna say "same" but I work in marketing so, uh
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Aug 13, 2022 07:49
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Parallelwoody posted:Saying we implements "loads" of anti-employee measures only makes sense if you have a department that is bootlicking. The financial topics you mention all function to prevent people getting paid more than the company can minimally get away with. See: pay banding, compa ratios, pay confidentiality. Performance reviews are designed to prevent too many people being labelled as good performers. Hiring decisions and actual interviewing have to be done by experts because HR doesn't have a clue about the company's actual business. I want to reiterate that you personally are I'm sure cool and good, but HR as an "industry" can suck my rear end
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Aug 13, 2022 07:53
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My grandpa was one of the good guards. e: thank you for existing, Parallelwoody, and thank you for marginally improving the industry with that mere fact, but yeah, gently caress that whole thing because it was made specifically to deny me access to the product of my labor and instead funnel it to the hogs at the top. gbut fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 09:38
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"People who work in X are generally bad' is dehumanizing bullshit and we should be better than trying to paint swaths of humans with the same brush.
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Aug 13, 2022 14:26
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Lockback posted:Everybody's job is stupid and evil except mine. Now now, my job is also stupid and evil.
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Aug 13, 2022 15:06
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It's nothing personal from me Woody, in my experience good HR can save you from a bad boss but a good boss can't save you from bad HR.
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Aug 13, 2022 15:07
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deported to Canada posted:It's nothing personal from me Woody, in my experience good HR can save you from a bad boss but a good boss can't save you from bad HR.
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Aug 13, 2022 15:57
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Arquinsiel posted:One of the best bosses I had came out of a HR meeting with me and was all "can you believe that <drone> can't count to three? What the gently caress?". We were both gone within two months. I can believe it. A few years back I was in open grievance with my boss in relation to an increase in the duties/role I was performing. We had an interim HR lady covering for our regular who was on maternity leave. She was present in our starting meeting where we collectively agreed that if I was formally trained and 'signed off' on the new tasks I was doing that my rate of pay would be increased. After all I was effectively absorbing two other peoples jobs and those positions wouldn't be replaced if I covered the responsibilities. My boss smugly set the threshold rather high. 3 months later we had a review where my boss felt he could add to the list of tasks to make it more unachievable - I didn't even get to respond before the lovely HR lady absolutely destroyed him and flat out told him that he can't move the goalposts now that I had successfully met the criteria, this flew in the face of all of our internal policies and our 'investors in people' certificate and that if he didn't agree to that wage increase there and then she would escalate to group and his ability to be a senior manager in the company would be seriously questioned. He agreed to the wage increase. A few months later our regular HR returned and she called me to a meeting to ask me wtf I was playing at - I can't just change my contract like that, I was hired to do a job and the changes fell within the contractually watertight wording of "any other duties as required" and I was now responsible for other people thinking that they could ask for more money if they felt their original contract had be significantly changed. I was astounded at the difference between the two on exactly the same issue and told her to speak with group - she did and they told her to back off and don't upset me. land of contrasts etc.
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Aug 13, 2022 16:19
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Good HR and talent people are incredibly valuable. HR isn’t there to protect you but they can be extremely helpful nonetheless when corporate and personal goals align.
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Aug 13, 2022 17:09
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I'm gonna try to power play a raise tomorrow since my pay is criminally below market value and I want to try to bluff a raise to make it reasonable to stay put since my job search has not gone as well as I'd hoped. Worth mentioning I've been looking and know what the real market value is and I've entertained offers at x rate? It's only a half bluff since it is true but I don't actually have a current offer and I'm trying to make this move because at this point I really don't think I'm going to get one that's reasonable.
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Aug 16, 2022 03:25
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That's a terrible idea. If you can't get an offer thats reasonable to you then you don't know the market.
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Aug 16, 2022 03:33
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I clearly mistimed the market, but that doesn't change that I'm being paid way less than I should. Just asking to be given the market average which is $6 more than what I make now. I'd be shocked if the hospitals turnover the past year was less than 50% and I know for a fact it's at least 50% for my department alone. It's so bare bones they'd have to close sites if someone from MRI left at this point. We've had 3 positions open for years and we almost got someone last month but they turned it down and went to our direct competitor because the pay was so much better.
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Aug 16, 2022 03:37
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Yeah all of that should clue you in that they are not interested in paying market rates and aren't going to. Do you think you're the first person to try this? They're not gonna care. Hospitals are kind of a cartel. It sucks. I feel for you. But you should be more careful about what you're intending to do. When they say no and you don't quit, you've very firmly established in their minds that they own you and don't have to take you seriously, ever. And you're not actually going to quit. Which they will know immediately, because you're not actually handing them your resignation while you ask for a raise. It would be best if you put this plan on the back burner and cool down a little first, and keep job searching.
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Aug 16, 2022 03:51
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yeah I should wait until I have an offer in hand. Gonna sign the sad $5k retention bonus they are desperately throwing at us because of how obscene the turnover is and they are at the point of being unable to operate 24/7 if even a single person leaves.
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Aug 16, 2022 04:48
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if its -that- bad, it sounds like you've got more leverage than it sounds on first glance? Edit: there's 2000 hours in a FT work year(assuming 40 hour work weeks), so a 5k retention bonus is about the equivalent of a 2.50 an hour raise as a one time. I'm not sure how many hours you put in to make it feel worth while to you, but maybe try asking for a larger retention bonus and segue into a competitive pay re-evaluation from there? If the business is losing people left and right, clearly they have room in the hiring budget from the empty seats TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 07:07
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I would focus on why your job search is going less well than you hoped, since it seems like there are lots of open positions and opportunities. Why can't you move to the better-paying competitor that the candidate you mentioned moved to?
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Aug 16, 2022 14:01
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TheParadigm posted:if its -that- bad, it sounds like you've got more leverage than it sounds on first glance? 2,080, not 2,000.
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Aug 16, 2022 14:16
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MrLogan posted:2,080, not 2,000. This guy doesn't PTO
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Aug 16, 2022 15:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I would focus on why your job search is going less well than you hoped, since it seems like there are lots of open positions and opportunities. Why can't you move to the better-paying competitor that the candidate you mentioned moved to? Same question from me, it sounds like you should be just as desirable to the right place (that's paying more)
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Aug 16, 2022 20:24
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