13th Age - It's D&D with Modern Mechanics, True Ways and Moar Owlbears

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > 13th Age - It's D&D with Modern Mechanics, True Ways and Moar Owlbears

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fosborb: Dec 15, 2006; Chronic Good Poster

dwarf74 posted:

I guess my question is - do I understand this right? You have two different basic attacks and you need to decide which one?

I'm guessing he'll also need the Armored talent from the Commander if he wants to stay in plate?

the way we played it, he either could get command points from a basic melee attack or use smite.

may want to take the Armor Skills talent for the feats anyway. Most of the command point skills are Nearby so the Commander is often in the thick of it

# ? Aug 8, 2022 15:01

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# ? May 18, 2024 05:25

SirFozzie: Mar 28, 2004; Goombatta!

re:Tweet's tweets:

Seeing he was back went from buy to no-buy in 2.8 seconds (a personal best for 2022)

# ? Aug 8, 2022 18:47

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

Yeah, I've been wanting a new edition for several ages now, but... having Tweet on the project makes me want to not buy it (the fact that Drakkenhall was honestly pretty bad didn't help).

# ? Aug 8, 2022 19:06

LongDarkNight: Oct 25, 2010; It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.; Oven Wrangler

I've been hoping for a 2nd edition for awhile but bringing back Tweet is a hard pass for me.

# ? Aug 8, 2022 19:07

Arrrthritis: May 31, 2007; I don't care if you're a star, the moon, or the whole damn sky, you need to come back down to earth and remember where you came from

LongDarkNight posted:

I've been hoping for a 2nd edition for awhile but bringing back Tweet is a hard pass for me.

Hopefully they'll iterate and improve on the ideas 13th age presented, but I kinda doubt it.

# ? Aug 8, 2022 19:14

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

I'm gonna wait until more info comes out. Maybe Tweet is gone.

# ? Aug 8, 2022 19:18

Foolster41: Aug 2, 2013; "It's a non-speaking role"

Selachian posted:

Swiped from Enworld:

Has anyone verified this? Who is this discord user? An employee of PP? I havn't heard of them before, and it just seems like a random person.

Escalation Edition was the name of a limited edition release of the original 13th age. That's all I find googling "13th age escalation edition". I don't see any confirmation (only speculation from about a year ago from "13th age 2nd edition". There's nothing on the Pelgrane press website. I think this is a hoax.
combinations of "Gencon" "13th age" "2nd Edition" in different combinations turns up nothing.

E: I found the enworld forum post, the only thing I could find mentioning it. There's an image, of a card signed by Rob Heinso, but it looks like it could be a shop.

Foolster41 fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 8, 2022

# ? Aug 8, 2022 20:44

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

Gareth Hanrahan tweeted it, so there's that.

# ? Aug 8, 2022 20:54

Sionak: Dec 20, 2005; Mind flay the gap.

Rand Brittain posted:

Yeah, I've been wanting a new edition for several ages now, but... having Tweet on the project makes me want to not buy it (the fact that Drakkenhall was honestly pretty bad didn't help).

What was disappointing about Drakkenhall?

# ? Aug 9, 2022 00:52

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

Sionak posted:

What was disappointing about Drakkenhall?

Well, a number of things. The complaints I remember having were:

The book builds on the writeup of Drakkenhall from 13 True Ways, and doesn't repeat any information from that book, so it frequently refers back to plot hooks from a book you may not have as though you already knew them.
Having a different writer for every chapter means that the book feels disconnected and unreal; when a book is nothing but plot hooks that aren't trying to form a unified whole, the city feels unreal. I can't exactly explain why having one chapter refer to to "Blue" instead of "the Blue" makes me want to fling the book across the room, but it does.
Building on that, the book never really deals with the idea that maybe "monsters" are just a kind of people. It pretty much just takes it for granted that monsters are evil and want to eat you, so Drakkenhall never really feels like a legitimate community, just a very large dungeon that the Empire allows to exist for some reason.
A lot of the writing is just immature and bad. At one point it mentions that the Blue sponsors public entertainments, but that people who suggest that she does this in order to pacify the citizens tend to be mysteriously murdered in the street. The writer appears to think that this is a deeply sinister machination on the Blue's part rather than Governance 101 followed up by a ridiculous act of petty vengeance.

# ? Aug 9, 2022 01:24

NinjaDebugger: Apr 22, 2008

LongDarkNight posted:

I've been hoping for a 2nd edition for awhile but bringing back Tweet is a hard pass for me.

Cannot same this hard enough. He's a poo poo and a bad designer.

# ? Aug 9, 2022 02:38

Foolster41: Aug 2, 2013; "It's a non-speaking role"

Rand Brittain posted:

Gareth Hanrahan tweeted it, so there's that.

Oh. then maybe it's not a hoax. I just find it weird the only place I can find talking about it is the en-world forum post,m though it's right after Gencon, so maybe that's why.

# ? Aug 9, 2022 04:40

fosborb: Dec 15, 2006; Chronic Good Poster

Foolster41 posted:

Oh. then maybe it's not a hoax. I just find it weird the only place I can find talking about it is the e n-world forum post,m though it's right after Gencon, so maybe that's why.

a friend of mine went to gencon, hung out with the Pelgrane crew quite a bit, and confirmed the 13th Age new edition...... but I didn't get a chance to ask him about Jonathan. following up and also hoping it's a spurious rumor and nothing more

waderockett could clear it up though....

fosborb fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Aug 9, 2022

# ? Aug 9, 2022 05:04

CaptCommy: Aug 13, 2012; The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a goat.

So I had free time and dug up the original Tweet stuff if anyone wanted to see it for themselves. My takeaway is that it's more idiocy and poor communication than malice but I'm not gonna die on this hill by any means.

https://twitter.com/JonathanMTweet/status/1145683517319176193

Basically, he thinks that it shouldn't be taboo to talk about race science so that we can fully and empirically debunk it instead of letting the alt-right have a monopoly on the conversation so that people are tricked into believing it. Which, uh, that's not really how you actually deal with alt-right chuds and his idea isn't really a good one, but I don't know if it's as clear cut as it might seem.

Here's the thread where I found people helpfully digging up his replies and further elaborations:
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/pelgrane-press-disassociates-jonathan-tweet-from-13th-age-pelgrane.848931/page-7

Edit:
Like immediately after writing this, I found the point where Tweet himself joins the conversation and explains himself so uh go read that and judge for yourselves:
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/pelgrane-press-disassociates-jonathan-tweet-from-13th-age-pelgrane.848931/page-8#post-22694744

# ? Aug 9, 2022 05:24

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

Yeah, I finished reading that thread. Tweet may not be a "racist" but he is definitely a "howling moron who cannot be told", and he spends most of that thread responding to long, thoughtful posts by people who actually know what they're talking about with single-line responses, and constantly talking about a "taboo" without actually presenting any evidence that such a thing exists.

It's probably not actually immoral to buy a game with his name on it but the dude is fantastically annoying and unable to accept when he's wrong.

EDIT: I guess maybe a better way to put it is that the dude has Sufficiently Advanced Stupidity that's indistinguishable from malice.

Rand Brittain fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Aug 9, 2022

# ? Aug 9, 2022 05:28

fosborb: Dec 15, 2006; Chronic Good Poster

Rand Brittain posted:

It's probably not actually immoral to buy a game with his name on it but the dude is fantastically annoying and unable to accept when he's wrong.

his 3.x proclivities in a nutshell

# ? Aug 9, 2022 05:37

fosborb: Dec 15, 2006; Chronic Good Poster

Tweet didn't come up at Pelgrane's announcement at Gencon, nor was he there. Rob announced it with Simon, Gareth, Ken and others

play test instructions if anyone is interested

# ? Aug 9, 2022 14:28

ninjoatse.cx: Apr 9, 2005; Fun Shoe

I read that thread and came away with biggliest brain nerd who received a nugget of information and is running with it.

Not seeing an irredeemable rear end in a top hat, just seeing a goon.

Rand Brittain posted:

"howling moron who cannot be told"

what's his SA username

# ? Aug 9, 2022 16:06

Sionak: Dec 20, 2005; Mind flay the gap.

Rand Brittain posted:

Well, a number of things. The complaints I remember having were:

Building on that, the book never really deals with the idea that maybe "monsters" are just a kind of people. It pretty much just takes it for granted that monsters are evil and want to eat you, so Drakkenhall never really feels like a legitimate community, just a very large dungeon that the Empire allows to exist for some reason.

A lot of the writing is just immature and bad. At one point it mentions that the Blue sponsors public entertainments, but that people who suggest that she does this in order to pacify the citizens tend to be mysteriously murdered in the street. The writer appears to think that this is a deeply sinister machination on the Blue's part rather than Governance 101 followed up by a ridiculous act of petty vengeance.

This is a shame! I can build on the 13 True Ways plot hooks myself and I can have a lot of fun picturing how monsters work in a society. I might still check out the pdf but I was really hoping for some interesting ideas in these areas.

re: the possible Escalated Edition:
It seems pretty weird that they mentioned others by name (like Lee Moyer) but not Tweet in the image from GenCon. I signed up for the playtest - if nothing else I think that will let me know who wrote what.

If nothing else, the 13th Age GenCon panels have been recorded and posted as podcasts in the past and that may happen again.

Sionak fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Aug 10, 2022

# ? Aug 10, 2022 00:16

Sionak: Dec 20, 2005; Mind flay the gap.

Latest word on Tweet's involvement. This is from the #13th_age channel of the Pelgrane Press discord.

From Cat Tobin:

quote:

Cat (she/her):
In response to your questions, we did say in 2019 that we were weren't working with Jonathan Tweet, and we have not been. However, Jonathan is working with Rob on 13th Age 2nd Edition. He's just working on the core book, and only because he co-wrote it originally, and Rob felt he couldn't re-write it by himself. We will not be working with him on anything else.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 19:40

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

I guess that means I'll be ok buying everything but the core book.

:smith:

# ? Aug 12, 2022 20:40

My Lovely Horse: Aug 21, 2010

If the only reasonable alternatives are "make an improved edition of 13th Age with Jonathan Tweet involved" and "don't do that and forever keep the original edition that also had Jonathan Tweet involved" then whatever gimme the improvements.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 21:39

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Well, that's reason enough for me to have no interest in buying it.

And to lose considerable respect for the company's response to Tweet's original bullshit.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 21:43

fosborb: Dec 15, 2006; Chronic Good Poster

We stopped working with him, have not worked with him since and will not work with him going forward

okay, at this specific infinitely small instant of Right Now we are currently working with him

but that's it

# ? Aug 12, 2022 21:52

Jackard: Oct 28, 2007; We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

Isn't he responsible for the worst calls? What exactly do they need him for?

# ? Aug 12, 2022 22:21

CitizenKeen: Nov 13, 2003; easygoing pedant

I'm curious how much they're rewriting. If they're tweaking some classes and some Icon rules, adding some advice here or there, etc., there might be enough body text written by Tweet that his name has to go on the cover regardless. I don't know how those things work, but it's possible revising the text with Tweet is way, way less work/cost than rewriting everything he touched.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 22:27

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

loving up the monk, martial classes with fewer backgrounds, and some others 3e classics.

This bothers me more than if they'd just said "We know he's controversial but we believe in his talent." They know we don't want him, they probably don't want him, and yet here he is because Rob said Tweet knows where they left the keys or something.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 22:32

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Could be a legal reason that they have to let him be involved in making the new edition

# ? Aug 13, 2022 00:19

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

In addition to any moral reasons, Tweet's poor design was one of the things that really held 13th Age back and a 2nd edition without his input was something it needed badly. So from that standpoint alone I'm not interested knowing he's involved.

# ? Aug 13, 2022 13:37

Saturnine Aberrance: Sep 6, 2010; Creator. Please make me flesh.

At least we know some Pelgrane folks read this thread, and everywhere I've seen discussion people are unhappy about Tweet, so maybe there'll be enough clear pushback to take Tweet off of "2e" development :ohdear:

# ? Aug 13, 2022 18:13

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Johnathon Tweet is confirmed on the project. I will not be supporting it, outside of piracy and theft since I do not care when a work is delegitimized like this. This is a betrayal.

Covok fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Aug 14, 2022

# ? Aug 14, 2022 02:30

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

That is an explanation that is definitely, 100%, an explanation, is all I can say.

(Honestly it has the energy of someone who is well aware that they're being asked to relay a completely unacceptable set of reasons for a decision and isn't looking forward to fielding the response.)

# ? Aug 14, 2022 02:37

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Yeah, I don't know who Cat is and I'm sure she's fine. I just was posting it as proof of the situation. I don't know her involvement, but it sounds like Rob Heinsoo pushed for John Tweet to stay. For all we know, Pelgrane hated the idea. Or maybe they are fine with it. Impossible for us to say. What we know is John is back and Rob wanted him back.

# ? Aug 14, 2022 02:45

SirFozzie: Mar 28, 2004; Goombatta!

"In a weird twist, Pelgrane says however, they weren't working with him in the past, and they won't work with him in the future, but because he co-wrote the first edition and Rob felt he needs Jonathan's help to re-write this. "

I guess it's more of "We're working with Rob, and HE's the one working with Jonathan, so technically we're not working with Jonathan".

# ? Aug 14, 2022 03:40

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

I also think, after talking in a trad games discord, this is probably Rob testing the waters on getting Tweet back in. If this works, I bet Tweet will be on the supplements too.

# ? Aug 14, 2022 03:53

My Lovely Horse: Aug 21, 2010

Did they ever actually say they would not be working with Tweet again in the future? All I can find on the subject as a statement is that one tweet.

https://twitter.com/13thage/status/1145799864464347136?lang=en

Which is really just a "this is how things are at this point in time" and doesn't even claim that it's any kind of organizational change or response to the complaints back then.

# ? Aug 14, 2022 20:07

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

My Lovely Horse posted:

Did they ever actually say they would not be working with Tweet again in the future? All I can find on the subject as a statement is that one tweet.

https://twitter.com/13thage/status/1145799864464347136?lang=en

Which is really just a "this is how things are at this point in time" and doesn't even claim that it's any kind of organizational change or response to the complaints back then.

It think it would be very foolish to get into "well, actually if you analyze every word in this sentence" to justify the action, instead of recognizing the original intent was to let people know Tweet wasn't there so people could feel comfortable supporting the project. The implication is definitely not "oh, but he will be back." Sometimes, it matters not what one says but the effect one intended with their words.

# ? Aug 14, 2022 20:46

Thanlis: Mar 17, 2011

I think that certainly implies that they weren�t planning to work with him again. It is not the same as a promise never to work with him again, though.

# ? Aug 14, 2022 20:47

My Lovely Horse: Aug 21, 2010

I think it's actually best practice to go over the exact wording in corporate damage control tweets, to determine whether any action has actually been taken or intent declared, or whether you're being bamboozled into thinking it has so you'll stop badmouthing the business.

I mean, I fell for it, it's just now that people are claiming Pelgrane's going back on a promise that I think "hang on".

# ? Aug 14, 2022 20:58

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# ? May 18, 2024 05:25

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

My Lovely Horse posted:

I think it's actually best practice to go over the exact wording in corporate damage control tweets, to determine whether any action has actually been taken or intent declared, or whether you're being bamboozled into thinking it has so you'll stop badmouthing the business.

I mean, I fell for it, it's just now that people are claiming Pelgrane's going back on a promise that I think "hang on".

That's what I mean. They ~wanted~ you to think that and their goal was to make it seem like they fixed it. Going "oh, but we should have read the fine print" gives them cover for bamboolzing us intentionally.

# ? Aug 14, 2022 21:04

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > 13th Age - It's D&D with Modern Mechanics, True Ways and Moar Owlbears

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