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Third World Reagan posted:The best mmo is Nerts online This needs more attention. Nerts is the best game ever published on Steam.
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Aug 13, 2022 16:55
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| # ? May 24, 2024 17:37 |
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Yeah, I also don't think Riot's MMO is going to revolutionize anything. This is only a guess, but I imagine the game will be a traditional WoW-like MMO where you pick your class, level to 60, and then run dungeons, raids, and participate in BG PvP. Maybe they will have something like player housing or a different way to do professions, but ultimately it will be seen as the kind of game we have all been playing for 20 years. Nothing really wrong with that, but I'm not looking to play WoW again in 2025, or whenever it comes out. The most popular games become that way be either creating a genre/sub-genre like Minecraft, Dark Souls, and Fortnite, or by polishing an old genre to a point of shine, like World of Warcraft did in 2004. The problem is that Riot will try to polish WoW, which is something that has been done a million times in the last 2 decades with limited success. Now if they used a game like Ultima Online, or Star Wars Galaxy as their basis for design, then they will have my undivided attention.
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Aug 13, 2022 16:59
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Kaysette posted:I never got into MOBAs but I liked Arcane a lot. Seems like a cool setting. I’ll probably try it out if/when it becomes real just because there is nothing else realistic in the pipeline. That's probably what they are banking on. They have a lot of interesting lore and a neat, if someone derivative, setting. It's just that it's all wrapped up in a game that is extremely unpleasant to actually play.
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Aug 13, 2022 17:02
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Cardboard Fox posted:Yeah, I also don't think Riot's MMO is going to revolutionize anything. At this point it'd be revolutionary for a relatively large study to release a polished mmo, period.
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Aug 13, 2022 18:53
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Turning off gear normalization just sped up a process that was already in motion. The truth is that there is a maximum number of players who can kill you per square meter that is sustainable, it's about the average population density of rust, and players will gradually quit/turn off pvp/etc. until the density falls to that level. Albion stabilized when its population hit that density- it was good of them to make a game that worked economically at that population, but any big company that tries it is going to lose a lot of money.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:25
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Bold decision to claim that, no really, this PvP focused sandbox game will be the one that attracts new blood to the MMO scene, I promise, please ignore all the other ones that tried that and failed to attract an audience or who switched to a more PvE focus very quickly after launch.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:37
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30.5 Days posted:Turning off gear normalization just sped up a process that was already in motion. The truth is that there is a maximum number of players who can kill you per square meter that is sustainable, it's about the average population density of rust, and players will gradually quit/turn off pvp/etc. until the density falls to that level. Albion stabilized when its population hit that density- it was good of them to make a game that worked economically at that population, but any big company that tries it is going to lose a lot of money. I like the wolves to sheep ratio myself. A PVP MMO with non PVP skills, but also makes those skills mandatory, needs a ratio of wolves to sheep, and a ratio of encounters to success for the sheep of about 70% for the sheep to feel like they are "winning". The wolves need a success rate of only 30% kills to feel successful. MOST games end up with entirely to effective wolves (90% kills on sheep). Sheep in this game will leave quickly and never come back because the wolves are not farming them at all, they simply kill them off then fight with the other wolves. PVP games, you cant make your wolves untouchable killing machines or they kill the population and you have no game. PS - Please for the love of god ignore the player base that comes to the forums to say they cant kill enough, or some combat class is not good enough. These people just want unstoppable killing machines.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:45
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It's also WAY harder to balance PvP because both sides are going to do unpredictable things- it's obviously doable within closed systems like fighting games, or battle royales where everyone basically has the same capabilities, but an open world where everyone has wildly different builds and is at a different power level is much trickier. So on top of all the technical stuff you have to do to make an MMO work, and designing it in such a way so that there's always something to maintain a player base, you now have to balance all abilities against each other.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:54
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I remember how excited people were for the open PVP zones in Warhammer and at least on my server (I assume this was common though) after the first like two weeks, no one actually did anything in these pvp zones and instead would just wait until like 3am and take the forts with almost zero resistance, rinse and repeat from both sides, was so lame.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:54
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PyRosflam posted:I like the wolves to sheep ratio myself. A PVP MMO with non PVP skills, but also makes those skills mandatory, needs a ratio of wolves to sheep, and a ratio of encounters to success for the sheep of about 70% for the sheep to feel like they are "winning". The wolves need a success rate of only 30% kills to feel successful. There's a ton of really popular games whose success makes zero sense viewed through this lens.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:55
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Like someone who understands spray patterns in rust can instakill with mediocre weapons from like 300 yards and new players start with wooden spears. The game is incredibly popular despite that fact.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:57
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30.5 Days posted:Like someone who understands spray patterns in rust can instakill with mediocre weapons from like 300 yards and new players start with wooden spears. The game is incredibly popular despite that fact. I feel like the scope and scale of something like rust is pretty different from an actual functional MMO with things to do, isnt it?
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Aug 13, 2022 20:03
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I remember how excited people were for the open PVP zones in Warhammer and at least on my server (I assume this was common though) after the first like two weeks, no one actually did anything in these pvp zones and instead would just wait until like 3am and take the forts with almost zero resistance, rinse and repeat from both sides, was so lame. Make crafting an important part of your game (like for real, don’t just say it and then immediately make all the BiS gear drop from dungeons) and put the good crafting materials in those open PvP zones. Problem solved.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:07
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Like, I feel like there's an obvious reason why something like Rust is very successful while every "HARDCORE ONLY PVP MMO" like Darkfall, Mortal online, etc are all dead.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:07
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I remember how excited people were for the open PVP zones in Warhammer and at least on my server (I assume this was common though) after the first like two weeks, no one actually did anything in these pvp zones and instead would just wait until like 3am and take the forts with almost zero resistance, rinse and repeat from both sides, was so lame. This is because there are like 20 big problems with that game like all the lessons they had learned and forgot from daoc One thing for instance is the map cutting some pvp zones in half. Another is the map by map objectives you had to do. Another is putting pve on the sides instead of inside of the pvp zone.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:17
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Like, I feel like there's an obvious reason why something like Rust is very successful while every "HARDCORE ONLY PVP MMO" like Darkfall, Mortal online, etc are all dead. Then lay it out, don't just imply
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Aug 13, 2022 20:19
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open world pvp needs to be actually well designed and have a purpose, but everyone instead copies wow because it's popular where killing someone has no consequence whatsoever so the only reason to do it is to grief people
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Aug 13, 2022 20:27
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30.5 Days posted:Then lay it out, don't just imply Well, to my understanding theres no actual genuine exploration or progression in Rust, it's entirely about building something up to kill or grief others, there's nothing in the game outside that as an activity. I don't think that really works for an actual MMO, and that's why all those all die. If I'm wrong about rust then by all means correct me, but that's the only thing I ever hear or see about the game. Which doesn't really seem like it works for a persistent living world that people also want out of a full scale MMO. Even something like Albion has a PVE component that people enjoy and thus act as fodder for the people to grief or kill.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:27
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Exploration is like the first time you play anything. Just a quick check on https://steamdb.info/app/252490/graphs/ rust steamdb's page shows a growing population for years.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:31
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Yes and people like rust and its successful because it doesn't have any of the bullshit MMO crap like leveling up or grinding movesets or powers to get to the grief/killing aspect of the game.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:32
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PvP in Tibia would give me god drat heart attacks when I played it 20 years ago. Losing your bag and weeks' worth of XP was soulcrushing. I never attempted PvP in Runescape, how was that like?
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Aug 13, 2022 20:58
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The PvP combat should actually be fun if it's going to be the main selling point of the game. Something like the current battle royale/moba/CSlike games that are fun to play (subjective of course) and draw people in to compete with each other, with the MMO stuff being something for socialization and downtime, that somehow feeds back into the main PvP gameplay. Sounds like a big design challenge and something that hasn't successfully been delivered on yet.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:18
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Warhammer was a lot of fun they just made a lot of other mistakes which I assume were mostly budgetary constraints.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:29
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I remember how excited people were for the open PVP zones in Warhammer and at least on my server (I assume this was common though) after the first like two weeks, no one actually did anything in these pvp zones and instead would just wait until like 3am and take the forts with almost zero resistance, rinse and repeat from both sides, was so lame. I remember people spending a ton of time zerging around the tier 1 war zones.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:30
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Groovelord Neato posted:Warhammer was a lot of fun they just made a lot of other mistakes which I assume were mostly budgetary constraints. The lead guy was a drug addict known for failing at making games.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:32
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A revolution in MMOs would be making PvE that's not garbage. The vast, vast majority of games people play don't involve competing against another human; if PvP actually mattered, then the Sims wouldn't still have an audience and Candy Crusher wouldn't somehow still be alive after all this goddamn time. In the case of mobile games, you can say that "oh they keep players via addiction", so to bring this to a more useful point look at poo poo like Doom, both the originals and the 2016 series; it's captivating specifically because of its PvE, and the PvP is at best a sideshow or (in 2016's case) a horrible clusterfuck. If you want a lasting MMO, you need a PvE foundation that people like playing because the gameplay is fun, and not just because numbers are going up. From there you can build a community based on interacting with that primary gameplay (SWG's economy of entertainers, cooks, doctors), or you can have a higher-scope gameplay loop where the playerbase as a whole is fighting against the world as a whole (something like Paradox's epic strategy but the players as a whole would control a 'country'). But PvP-centric games don't really need more exemplars when it's the system every new MMO goes for and gets itself killed on.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:43
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Good Dumplings posted:if PvP actually mattered, then the Sims wouldn't still have an audience and Candy Crusher wouldn't somehow still be alive after all this goddamn time. this is person erasure
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Aug 13, 2022 22:54
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Third World Reagan posted:The lead guy was a drug addict known for failing at making games. lol that there were two MMO leads with this issue.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:59
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Good Dumplings posted:A revolution in MMOs would be making PvE that's not garbage. The vast, vast majority of games people play don't involve competing against another human;
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Aug 14, 2022 01:59
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Good Dumplings posted:A revolution in MMOs would be making PvE that's not garbage. The vast, vast majority of games people play don't involve competing against another human; if PvP actually mattered, then the Sims wouldn't still have an audience and Candy Crusher wouldn't somehow still be alive after all this goddamn time. If your set on PVP + MMO, new world was almost there in a few ways. First they needed to A) Trash the leveling game or B) make it skills only. They were insane so a 3rd option might have been low level stuff on the outside and end game in the center of the map. Then you do tier weapons so that anyone can make a set of tier 1 armor, and mix up tier 2 and 3 stuff so that each "territory" has a resource to be exploited in some way. (Armor, Weapons, magic). When it comes to crafting, you absolutely need an Item in -> item out econ. This can be items breaking, lost on death, or a mix of both. Ammo systems might be best here, aka baseline weapon, and all kinds of funky specialized ammos. To add on, you may want item weight to be a real thing too. Stockpiles then mean the defender has the advantage for a war since the defense can raid the attackers. This puts logistics, horses, carts, all into the game and also means raiding carts, hunting armies supply lines all become real tactics in a PVP MMO. The one I think no one is really doing yet is a real use of NPCs, This could be as simple as spawning guards when you own territory all the way to letting players place and manage NPC guards. I mean what's the point of owning territory if you cant own shops, train guards, send patrols and more. All of this is giving use for all that tier 1 junk your always getting, its low value, so give it to your NPCs. All of this is about making more opportunity for people to engage NPCs and players. Toss in some stuff to make zerging a non popular solution and you have a PVP MMO basic plan
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Aug 14, 2022 04:31
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Well, to my understanding theres no actual genuine exploration or progression in Rust, it's entirely about building something up to kill or grief others, there's nothing in the game outside that as an activity. Yes, in other words it has zero sheep activities or sheep players, that is my point.
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Aug 14, 2022 07:45
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PyRosflam posted:The one I think no one is really doing yet is a real use of NPCs, This could be as simple as spawning guards when you own territory all the way to letting players place and manage NPC guards. I mean what's the point of owning territory if you cant own shops, train guards, send patrols and more. All of this is giving use for all that tier 1 junk your always getting, its low value, so give it to your NPCs.
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Aug 14, 2022 08:11
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Jackard posted:I remember a chinese mmo where random players could join the enemies side during instanced boss fights, was p neat Age of Wushu was pretty great, or at least had a bunch of great ideas that other devs should turn into a good game.
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Aug 14, 2022 08:13
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junan_paalla posted:Age of Wushu was pretty great, or at least had a bunch of great ideas that other devs should turn into a good game.
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Aug 14, 2022 08:17
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Good Dumplings posted:The vast, vast majority of games people play don't involve competing against another human; if PvP actually mattered, then the Sims wouldn't still have an audience and Candy Crusher wouldn't somehow still be alive after all this goddamn time. Are you actually serious?  Waiting for the retort that the most popular game in the world is Candy Crush. What a strawman argument. PVP games are the most popular, but it doesn't mean that PVP games are the only genre that's popular. Come on, now. There's a place for The Sims and Candy Crush in a gaming world where shooting mans is what most people deep into the hobby love. Lifroc fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 10:32
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Matches against people in wallpaper engine get intense as hell.
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Aug 14, 2022 10:42
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30.5 Days posted:Like someone who understands spray patterns in rust can instakill with mediocre weapons from like 300 yards and new players start with wooden spears. The game is incredibly popular despite that fact. I haven't played Rust seriously since the last time it was good ie the beta, but the reason why Rust was satisfying had nothing to do with one on one shootouts. Coming up against someone with a weapon was just the regular battle Royale thing, where you were either someone with poor equipment running serpentine or someone with decent equipment chasing them. It was just a new player shooter because people with actual gear were extremely hesitant to actually engage with each other due to the danger. No, the appeal came from the base building aspect and the ability to launch raids on people. You get some explosives together and a few people and then run in and blow up their walls and then blow up a month's worth of work in supplies. It wasn't about any benefit for actual play so much as just being a giant griefing engine. You can't really have the same effect in a structured mmo.
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Aug 14, 2022 11:31
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junan_paalla posted:Age of Wushu was pretty great, or at least had a bunch of great ideas that other devs should turn into a good game. I played Age of Wushu for a few months, and it cursed me, because from that point onward my dream MMORPG became "a MMORPG that is inspired by the ideas of Age of Wushu, but is actually a good game" and I am fully aware that I will never get a game that is even close to that.
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Aug 14, 2022 12:45
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I haven't played Rust since it launch era but I've sort of watched some content creator videos as background while doing other stuff. My opinion is it does well because the barrier to entry is low, it's impossible to maintain dominance long term (reset puts everyone on an equal playing field, at least at first) and it rewards being a sneaky bastard instead of rambo. It's a battle royale game with crafting not an mmo. Maybe the take away is you can make a good game but it can't be a good game and an mmo too. Something about mmos and their "only just fun enough" design because they want to stretch out all the content plus inherant imbalance because of player ability / gear discrepancies. I mean nobody in counter strike is going to have 5 times the hitpoints of anyone else because they're in tanking gear using an imbalanced class ability, also only 5% of your bullets can hit them because they have 95% evasion since you're using a level 70 gun but they are level 110.
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Aug 14, 2022 12:51
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DancingShade posted:I mean nobody in counter strike is going to have 5 times the hitpoints of anyone else because they're in tanking gear using an imbalanced class ability, also only 5% of your bullets can hit them because they have 95% evasion since you're using a level 70 gun but they are level 110. That's the issue, people who are playing world PVP are not looking for Kurosawa-esque duels between equals in a field of flowers, they're looking for the thing where you can disable XP gain in WoW so that you can permanently stay at level 19 and exploit a build advantage that let's you smoke the competition without an issue in battlegrounds. *Especially* in full loot pvp you're seeing gank gangs ambushing people who could not be expected to put up a fight, which can be good if you have groups of people then going out to PvE to make up for it, but it makes solo play entirely miserable. MMO pvp outside of structured battlegrounds can be good but it's been shown repeatedly that it works best when it drive social play more than anything else. You don't join a Corp in EVE Online for 5% better market rates in some areas, you join it because people will gank your poo poo if you don't have backup.
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Aug 14, 2022 13:03
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