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If we don't teach kids white supremacy they'll learn it from racists.
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Aug 14, 2022 05:05
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Aug 14, 2022 05:06
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CaptCommy posted:Gonna copy what came up in the 13th age thread, but he's not an actual believer in
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Aug 14, 2022 05:10
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. He just has some head-rear end ideas for dealing with them.
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He also wants to make Fighters shittier.
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Aug 14, 2022 05:25
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Yeah in addition to just saying his ideas in the worst loving way possible, at best, every single one of his sidebar ideas in 13th Age is some grog-rear end dogshit that makes the game worse, and bringing him back is probably gonna keep the game from being anything more than Another D&D.
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Aug 14, 2022 05:31
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That Pelgrane tweet is implying that Tweet being involved is Rob Heinsoo's call, and I'd be interested to hear Heinsoo's thoughts on this. On one hand, I can sort of sympathize with potential struggles to write 13A 2E without the input of the coauthor of 1E; on the other, yeah, I agree with folks that think Tweet and his attitudes were the worst part of 1E, so it's not getting my hopes up for 2E.
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Aug 14, 2022 08:07
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Antivehicular posted:That Pelgrane tweet is implying that Tweet being involved is Rob Heinsoo's call, and I'd be interested to hear Heinsoo's thoughts on this. On one hand, I can sort of sympathize with potential struggles to write 13A 2E without the input of the coauthor of 1E; on the other, yeah, I agree with folks that think Tweet and his attitudes were the worst part of 1E, so it's not getting my hopes up for 2E. I think that I would have to be waterboarded before I publicly admitted that I needed help making a D&D-type game from the biotruths-and-make-fighters-shittier-for-nostalgia guy, personally. Like cmon seriously, Rob Heinsoo the Shadow of the Demon Lord guy needs that dude's help to make a d20 fantasy game? Nobody else was available?
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Aug 14, 2022 12:09
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13th Age was not a good or interesting-enough game that it deserves a second edition, frankly.
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Aug 14, 2022 12:10
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Kai Tave posted:I think that I would have to be waterboarded before I publicly admitted that I needed help making a D&D-type game from the biotruths-and-make-fighters-shittier-for-nostalgia guy, personally. Like cmon seriously, Rob Heinsoo the Shadow of the Demon Lord guy needs that dude's help to make a d20 fantasy game? Nobody else was available? Demon Lord is Rob Schwalb
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Aug 14, 2022 12:29
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Kai Tave posted:I think that I would have to be waterboarded before I publicly admitted that I needed help making a D&D-type game from the biotruths-and-make-fighters-shittier-for-nostalgia guy, personally. Like cmon seriously, Rob Heinsoo the Shadow of the Demon Lord guy needs that dude's help to make a d20 fantasy game? Nobody else was available? Wrong Rob - Rob Schwalb made Shadow of the Demon Lord, a better game than 13th Age.
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Aug 14, 2022 12:30
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Welp that's my bad, I got my Robs mixed up.
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Aug 14, 2022 12:44
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That's understandable, Shadow of the Demon Lord does sound like a Rob Zombie production.
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Aug 14, 2022 13:05
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Sodomy Hussein posted:13th Age was not a good or interesting-enough game that it deserves a second edition, frankly. Inflammatory opinion aside, the point of a second edition is that you improve on faults. It's an ideal candidate for a second edition because many of its problem areas were Tweet's deliberate design choices. After Tweet racist'd himself out of the picture, it looked like his dumb choices were going with him. Except nah.
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Aug 14, 2022 13:05
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Yeah, me misremembering my Robs aside, Tweet is not really on the cutting edge of RPG design and kinda wasn't even when 13th Age was brand new, so I'm really scratching my head what keen insights he had that required him to be brought back on board this project. I'm not going to say 13th Age is a bad game, but it is not imo a particularly revolutionary one.
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Aug 14, 2022 13:09
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The man who has been dodging literal assassins for decades and just lost an eye to a religious fanatic with a knife? At least he wasn't cancelled.
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Aug 14, 2022 14:32
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Mystic Mongol posted:The man who has been dodging literal assassins for decades and just lost an eye to a religious fanatic with a knife? At least he wasn't cancelled. No, no, you see being cancelled is as bad as death. Even though nobody is really cancelled and lots of people who air quotes were canceled make a lot of money off of it.
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Aug 14, 2022 15:30
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Rude_Dude posted:Wrong Rob - Rob Schwalb made Shadow of the Demon Lord, a better game than 13th Age.
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Aug 14, 2022 15:31
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dwarf74 posted:Having run both, I can't agree. SotDL is a lot cooler with tons of bells and whistles but it's got a massive wizard supremacy problem, some big power vs narrative issues on advanced classes, and rather crumbles under its own system even for fighting types. 13A has worked mostly well for us so far. Do things like that really bother the general populace? I always found the idea of trying to balance a TTRPG to be kind of a bore, and good examples of balanced class games tend to be rejected by the market aggressively like 4e was.
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Aug 14, 2022 15:39
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People don't like trap choices like "fighter," yes.
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Aug 14, 2022 15:45
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Weird to see here on this forum the myth that the market rejected 4e.
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Aug 14, 2022 15:46
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Tendales posted:Weird to see here on this forum the myth that the market rejected 4e. How is it a myth when 4e sold worse than the current edition and had its sales and gaming space supplanted by a game that was basically just the previous edition? Longevity wasn't there either - within five years they were mumbling about replacing it with a new edition and begging the community to please tell them what they wanted, while tapping OSR creators as consultants to help make the game more like older editions of DnD? There's been talk of replacing 5e, yes, but 5e has been out since early 2014, and iirc they weren't talking about replacing it until last year, which is seven years and it likely won't be a complete and total overhaul of system, most people have said it'll be closer to a "5.5e". DnD also retook the top spot in RPG sales almost immediately with 5e, 5e was an instant sales hit and also became relevant culturally again, big enough that a film studio is willing to "roll the dice" (har har) on a big box office production of DnD and other things. It also demolishes other systems, Cubicle 7 is not the only people who went around saying that simply put, you can write your own original RPG, or you can put out "My setting, in 5e" and you'll do like ten times the sales with the 5e sourcebook. I don't even like 5e but it was a huge hit lol TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 16:04
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moths posted:Inflammatory opinion aside, the point of a second edition is that you improve on faults. it was phrased aggressively, but like I don't disagree. 13th was neat and novel at the time when the most well known PbtA hack was Dungeon World but like in the time since I can hardly think of anything in 13th age I wouldn't describe as being done better elsewhere. Maybe a 2nd edition would be neat if certain people were not involved but I really struggle to see where they could take it without some radical changes like ditching ability scores and D20s.
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Aug 14, 2022 16:06
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:How is it a myth when 4e sold worse than the current edition every version of D&D has outsold the previous one. the market didn't "reject" 4E, 4E out-performed an edition which itself spawned such a huge wave of imitators and compatible games that it saturated the market like if 4E counts as a "rejected" RPG than 5E D&D is literally the only RPG to ever be accepted lol Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 16:07
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Avengers: Infinity War made less money than Endgame, obviously the market rejected Infinity War.
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Aug 14, 2022 16:21
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The reasons for 5e's success had very little to do with the merits of its system. WotC got really loving lucky that podcasts had taken off.
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Aug 14, 2022 16:42
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The only group of people who were unserved by 4e were the people who were mad that "replace Fighter" and "Replace Rouge" were no longer spells on the Wizard and Cleric's spell list. And once Mearls was put in charge he made sure that martials were put in their place so they can sit there and think about their incorrect class choices while the Wizard jerks off with their leatherbound copy of Mordenkainen's big book of spells. Also people are actually warming up to 5e more now than they were at the tail end of 4e's life cycle because after Mearls got slapped by the collective zeitgeist of twitter after his defense and enabling of Zak, they've put out a bunch of books that are full of neat and flavorful options for players, done their best to edit out regressive ALWAYS CHAOTIC EVIL and ORCS ARE ALWAYS DUMBER THAN HUMANS poo poo that has been hanging to D&D's shoe like a piece of toilet paper. And they just released a book that is loving stuffed with minority voices. At this point in 4e's life cycle Mearls was shutting down D&D Online and publishing a book with the 5th Wizard subclass produced under his watch.
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Aug 14, 2022 16:45
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The reasons for 5e's success had very little to do with the merits of its system. WotC got really loving lucky that podcasts had taken off. As much as I prefer 4e to 5e, I think it would have been really hard for 4e to ride the podcast wave. A way larger percentage of 4e play ends up being spend on things like 'looking at a map' or 'applying and cashing in on status effects' that, while fun to do, are not good radio.
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Aug 14, 2022 16:53
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The groundwork was laid down during the 4e era though, with groups like Acquisitions Incorporated. Yeah, a lot of 4e gets stripped out for the sale of flow, but that's true for current 5e podcasts.
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Aug 14, 2022 17:13
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Every 5e D&D podcast I've listened to, which is admittedly only 3-4, uses the bare minimum of the game. Editing out dice rolls and just making things up on the fly whether they fit the rules or not is the only way to make an actual play listenable. 4e would've been fine in the current style of podcasting, I feel.
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Aug 14, 2022 17:48
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I personally got into podcasts through Crit Juice and RPPR's 4e campaigns circa 2013
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Aug 14, 2022 18:01
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Ash Rose posted:it was phrased aggressively, but like I don't disagree. 13th was neat and novel at the time when the most well known PbtA hack was Dungeon World but like in the time since I can hardly think of anything in 13th age I wouldn't describe as being done better elsewhere. Maybe a 2nd edition would be neat if certain people were not involved but I really struggle to see where they could take it without some radical changes like ditching ability scores and D20s. The backgrounds system and giving each class unique mechanics were absolutely improvements over everything else at the time. And I honestly haven't seen anything as great as the backgrounds for narrative, since every skill test is an opportunity to world-build or develop your character. Ironically, you could look at the started goals for Next and 13A could tick off all the boxes. I think that died with Gleemax or whatever the hell their forums were, though. Its big advantage, the thing that they did best, was being able to import fun mechanics into a D20 shaped pill that players would swallow. It was accessible to players who get uncomfortable outside of the D20 ecosystem, which is the rarest kind of bridge. As much as nuking ability scores would be nice, anything "too different" trips the community's immune system. Like, sure there are better games - but good luck generating excitement among D&D players. If they cared about better games, they wouldn't be playing D&D. I don't know what they could do as an equivalent today, maybe put critical role or Monte Cook on the cover or something.
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Aug 14, 2022 18:09
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I have only the foggiest memory of backgrounds, weren't they something like "name a profession or something and assign a + value to it"?
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Aug 14, 2022 18:21
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Do things like that really bother the general populace? I always found the idea of trying to balance a TTRPG to be kind of a bore, and good examples of balanced class games tend to be rejected by the market aggressively like 4e was. Also - This is SA. You should know by now that posters here care about balance and mechanics.
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Aug 14, 2022 18:25
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Ash Rose posted:I have only the foggiest memory of backgrounds, weren't they something like "name a profession or something and assign a + value to it"? You are a <Adjective> <Noun> who <Verbs>.
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Aug 14, 2022 18:25
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Kurieg posted:You are a <Adjective> <Noun> who <Verbs>. That's Numenera
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Aug 14, 2022 18:28
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While DTAS is somehow still a big deal in online discus orcs for some reason, I think the broader audience probably doesn't give too much of a poo poo. Sure, it would probably be risky to shake up the Ability spread itself, but I think most people would just shrug their shoulders if "17-18 Strength score, +4 Strength bonus" went away and just became "+4 Strength bonus." Something 13A did really well that not a lot of competitors matched is condensed and easy-to-use monster stat blocks and encounter building, in a system with significant tactical complexity. If you want "something like D&D" there are actually not a lot of choices out there that make encounters so easy to handle as a GM. Plus it has a good mesh of "vibe" matching mechanics. It doesn't talk you up about your big drat epic heroism and then toss a carry weight chart in your face. Ash Rose posted:I have only the foggiest memory of backgrounds, weren't they something like "name a profession or something and assign a + value to it"? It doesn't have to be a profession. Just a "background", and the bonus you assign it acts as a skill modifier if your background is relevant to a (non-combat standard) check. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 18:30
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Instead of skills, you had backgrounds. So you'd roll Attribute bonus + Background points + D20 to meet a target number. So your character's background wasn't just a paragraph nobody reads or a +2 to two skills. In a session, you'd be able to creatively flesh out how life in the Royal Assassins' and Gardner's Guild helps in your current situation. Similarly, the One Unique Thing defined your character while establishing that nobody else in the world was that thing. It was good.
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Aug 14, 2022 18:30
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the one bad thing about OUT is that what qualified as a OUT varied sharply from game to game, in my experience, and most gms I've seen have pushed for them to be more 'I am an unusual thing in the setting' at best instead of 'I am literally the only one of this thing'.
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Aug 14, 2022 18:33
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Yeah, it's a huge bit of narrative power for the players and some DMs really really hate that. E: I think that also was what I liked about backgrounds: The players told the table how being raised by hobgoblins helps them intimidate the prince or bake a tasty garbage pie, and then that established. The GM and system isn't there to create friction over a bunch of +1s when they're trying to advance the story, which is a huge conceptual departure from established D20 at the time. Even the Escalation Die helped things move along. There's a definite focus on the game not bogging down under its bulk, at least initially, which was refreshing. moths fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 18:35
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If 13th Age's second edition isn't called 14th age, I'm not even sure what they're doing.
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Aug 14, 2022 19:02
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