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Maxwell Lord posted:Okay I cannot find a source for this but I'm given to understand that Johnathan Tweet's talking about "race science" may go back to him adopting a mixed-race child and being told by doctors that they'd have to look out for certain genetic disorders more common to black populations. (Maybe sickle cell anemia I don't know.) And that probably got him thinking "Wait so your race does matter? Why aren't we talking about this?" He didn't adopt; he married a Black woman and they had a daughter. He tells a story of a nurse telling him that "black newborns tend to be advanced compared to white babies" here. Now, me, if a nurse told me that I would think "hm, that sounds suspiciously like the old 'oh your kid will be a natural athlete' line." Tweet discarded it at first, but then ruminated on it and decided sure, that seems plausible. I don't actually think Tweet is malicious, but he keeps amplifying people who have said that friends of mine are lesser beings. I don't believe it's important to engage with every idea that floats past me, and I especially don't believe that it's important to amplify ideas I disagree with just so people can engage with them. As I think Rand said, he's addicted to the idea that contrarian thought is valuable just because it's contrarian. In his recent post about his old gender in gaming comments, he says that he's on the autism spectrum. This does not strike me as an excuse, even though he seems to use it as one. Man, that post is just so all over the place, too. He goes from saying that complaining about his earlier post hurt women (what?) to admitting that his post was ill-informed.
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Aug 14, 2022 23:08
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Kurieg posted:What metrics are you using here? Raw PHBs sold, profits off of raw PHBs? Cause that seems like a spurious measurement of popularity or success. 1) Markets are always, always, growing and prices always go up. 2) There were a lot of other 4e books to buy other than the players handbook, I have 7 player facing 4e books that came out in the first year and a half of it's release. The first 100% for players 5e book didn't come out until 2 years after it's release. I would say that 5e making more unit sales than 4e did in the same time period with 1/10th of the available product would be a massive indicator of its success...
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Aug 14, 2022 23:19
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Again, where are you getting these numbers?
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Aug 14, 2022 23:25
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I would say that 5e making more unit sales than 4e did in the same time period with 1/10th of the available product would be a massive indicator of its success... Because WotC invented time travel?
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Aug 14, 2022 23:25
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Kurieg posted:Again, where are you getting these numbers? My numbers is hasbro constantly announcing that 5e is doing well in sales and better than ever and only announcing once, in 2008, that 4e had a successful launch, much better than the launch of 3.5 and then I simply cannot find a single time they felt the need to brag about the game's sales again. Xiahou Dun posted:Because WotC invented time travel? I...what?
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Aug 14, 2022 23:36
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:My numbers is hasbro constantly announcing that 5e is doing well in sales and better than ever and only announcing once, in 2008, that 4e had a successful launch, much better than the launch of 3.5 and then I simply cannot find a single time they felt the need to brag about the game's sales again. That's an indicator of greater success but not, specifically quote:5e making more unit sales than 4e did in the same time period with 1/10th of the available product
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Aug 14, 2022 23:37
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:My numbers is hasbro constantly announcing that 5e is doing well in sales and better than ever and only announcing once, in 2008, that 4e had a successful launch, much better than the launch of 3.5 and then I simply cannot find a single time they felt the need to brag about the game's sales again. You're ignoring the fact that they came out at different times. Every addition has out-sold the prior one. It's an entirely facile point, you absolute dingus.
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Aug 14, 2022 23:41
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:My numbers is hasbro constantly announcing that 5e is doing well in sales and better than ever and only announcing once, in 2008, that 4e had a successful launch, much better than the launch of 3.5 and then I simply cannot find a single time they felt the need to brag about the game's sales again.
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Aug 14, 2022 23:45
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I know goons can't help but argue with people they think are wrong but jesus loving christ stop engaging with TDMR.
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Aug 14, 2022 23:46
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moths posted:We might as well be talking about how many Fast and Furious DVDs Vin Diesel owns because we don't have those numbers either. they're all car wizards in those movies dominic torreto is classed into car necromancer because he keeps raising the same dead car after it gets exploded at the end of every movie
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Aug 14, 2022 23:47
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Also we can extrapolate how many DVDs Vin Diesel owns by how many DVD players he steals in the first movie, because Vin had a "finders keepers" contract and wanted to play all of his copies simultaneously
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Aug 14, 2022 23:50
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moths posted:We might as well be talking about how many Fast and Furious DVDs Vin Diesel owns because we don't have those numbers either. Exactly 10, I remember this figure from a screenshot of an irc chat that was summarizing a livestream 12 years ago. None of these things survive but you gotta trust me on this
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Aug 14, 2022 23:51
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Also, while game stores are stuffed to the gills with 5e products now, for the first couple of years of its lifespan the 3 core rulebooks were effectively all there was. Even if they were selling well, D&D was pretty clearly low-priority for WotC and Hasbro. The rise of streaming/live play and the completely random rise in visibility from media like Stranger Things might not be the only reason 5e has been as successful as it has been, but I still think it's the primary reason for its dominance. It still would be selling great and probably have higher numbers than 4e did at the end of its lifespan, but the games and nerd-poo poo market is just so much bigger than it was in 2012 through basically no fault of D&D itself.
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Aug 14, 2022 23:52
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Xiahou Dun posted:You're ignoring the fact that they came out at different times. I'm not ignoring anything. When I say time period, I mean, in this case, the same three and a half years. 4e released more product, but then they got quiet about sales. They released the essentials line and then muttered about beginning development of 5e. 5e released fewer products but became a bigger seller since WotC cannot stop crowing about sales. They announced a semisuccessor 7.5 or so years in comparison to 4e's 3.5 years. I'm not an expert but if 4e was doing well and not doing poorly, Paizo wouldn't have eaten their lunch and they wouldn't have bent over backwards crowdsourcing opinions for 5e to make sure it didn't step on too many toes. And once again, 5e's sales appear to be more consistent and aren't having a dropping off period as fast as 4e. And its replacement doesn't sound like it will be a complete system overhaul. Which looks to me, like the market rejected 4e. That's my general argument and you calling me names doesn't disprove anything. Stay mad and cry about it, lol Hostile V posted:drat that's sick as hell, I too enjoy listening to people just telling me stuff about their product and taking that at face value. ? Ah, I should have guessed Hasbro was lying to their shareholders. Ah well; I'll just join in on the class action lawsuit against them and share in a massive settlement they'll have to pay out for flagrantly lying to their shareholders.  TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 00:10
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“I’m know exactly what I’m talking about! [immediately contradicts that]” You’re not comparing like with like, you’re just throwing out dubious numbers and refusing to address points. You’re not correct just cause you’re insufferable.
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Aug 15, 2022 00:25
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Nobody has ever, to my knowledge, released any hard sales data numbers for any version of D&D or Pathfinder, in fact most RPG publishers never release any sort of sales data whatsoever. Sometimes small indie or self-published games do, I know Ettin and Freyja have been pretty open about Hard Wired Island's sales to make a point about why they charge the price they do, but ultimately nobody who claims to "know" how bad a particular edition of D&D sold or not has ever ponied up any actual hard evidence. Pointing to Amazon rankings or ICv2 reports, none of that poo poo matters because it's tiny little pinhole views of a bigger picture that no one is sharing, which means it's just a bunch of speculation and "well it makes sense to assume." Two things are broadly known from primary sources: 1). Every edition of D&D outsells the prior one. 2). Chris Sims, who has worked on several editions of D&D as well as Pathfinder, has gone on record as saying that the whole "4E sold so badly it got beat out by Pathfinder" thing is incorrect: https://twitter.com/ChrisSSims/status/1473693497496682504 And that's all anyone really has to go on.
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Aug 15, 2022 00:25
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Ah, I should have guessed Hasbro was lying to their shareholders. Ah well; I'll just join in on the class action lawsuit against them and share in a massive settlement they'll have to pay out for flagrantly lying to their shareholders.
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Aug 15, 2022 00:42
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xiw posted:13th Age managed to thread the needle between keeping 4e solid tactical abilities while not needing a grid map (or even 5e/3e's wink wink nudge nudge you don't need a grid honest but you actually do) - that chunk of the engine is great with how interception and disengagement work. The bits that need work are class design (do a power-based fighter), icon dice (a heap of options here) and escalation dice (don't build powers that rely on the dice hitting 6 when most encounters don't reach it). As I'm in a campaign of it right now, I agree with pretty much all of these. Most of the Martial classes are either boring (Paladin), clunky (Monk), or too narrow (Rogue). Ranger is a mild exception in that it can be too broad, but Fighter has a lot of good bones on it and probably just needs a resource system and/or a set of Encounter and Daily powers. Icon Relationships are ultra weird and clunky and don't fit into every setting (or at all...) and the powers and skills that connect to the are similarly too situational, if not irrelevant as a result. A lot of the things that relate to the escalation die tend to be weird (the example listed above being one of them, but also the ones that are better only on even turns). Backgrounds should just be either +3/+3/+3, +4/+4, or +5/+3 and then bonuses from Traits and Feats as relevant. The magic items rules are also weird and setting limited and more generic ones would be nice. From our campaign's experience, there's a bit of rocket tag involved in encounters which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's particularly troublesome when trying to protect the softer characters like Necromancers, especially without a way to properly intercept an enemy before they engage.
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Aug 15, 2022 00:43
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the design of DnD itself is pretty bad, especially the most recent edition, but I think generally it's accepted that it's a good reason to hang out with people you like for a few hours, and a lot of people will only play DnD because Hasbro has the resources to make it the de facto mind monopoly (lol Hasbro also produces Monopoly) unfortunately, DnD culture somehow produces a Kind Of Guy who has been rigorously trained that if they're the most tedious person in the room they're correct, somehow completely oblivious that the silence at the end of their conversations is the howling void of nobody being able to give a gently caress anymore
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Aug 15, 2022 00:53
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13th Age is just gridless 5e.
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Aug 15, 2022 00:54
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xiw posted:13th Age managed to thread the needle between keeping 4e solid tactical abilities while not needing a grid map (or even 5e/3e's wink wink nudge nudge you don't need a grid honest but you actually do) - that chunk of the engine is great with how interception and disengagement work. The bits that need work are class design (do a power-based fighter), icon dice (a heap of options here) and escalation dice (don't build powers that rely on the dice hitting 6 when most encounters don't reach it). Dilettante is a homebrew class that's basically power fighter, if we have the same definition of power fighter. I had a lot of fun playing one.
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Aug 15, 2022 00:57
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Xiahou Dun posted:“I’m know exactly what I’m talking about! [immediately contradicts that]” And you can't make yourself correct by pretending I'm saying something different and then attacking the thing I'm not saying. Nor can you do it by throwing out insults and showing everyone how mad you are. Anyway have a good night, I got a game night to get to - we're starting a campaign of Dungeon World - excited!  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 15, 2022 01:11
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I could never get excited about Dungeon World. It's always seemed solidly mediocre every time I tried it.
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Aug 15, 2022 01:24
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You intentionally rattled a hornets nest with "The market just doesn't like balanced games like 4e" and are now leaving the thread with your tail between your legs because no one's buying your claim that Hasbro apparently announced on a shareholders call that they took a 90+% inventory loss on 4e PHBs. Enjoy your totally real Dungeon World game that I'm sure actually exists and you're going to. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 01:33
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Ferrinus posted:13th Age is just gridless 5e. Except its version of CR actually works, mainly because SoD attacks work more gradually, and nothing needs magic items to damage it.
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Aug 15, 2022 01:33
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I dunno why you'd play Dungeon World anyways, the market has rejected it since it isn't D&D 5e. Sounds pretty bad to me.
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Aug 15, 2022 01:33
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:And you can't make yourself correct by pretending I'm saying something different and then attacking the thing I'm not saying. Nor can you do it by throwing out insults and showing everyone how mad you are. You had no point because you're a disingenuous turd. At intervals you just poo poo up threads with these vague-rear end trollposts and then slink away because you can't actually argue. "Ooo look people are mad just because I purposely annoyed them!" isn't the own you think it is. You're just an rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 15, 2022 01:38
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It's wild to me that these forums seem to be the only area that so aggressively kills their darlings when it comes to RPGs. Like 13th Age was absolutely loved when it came out, and goons were cribbing stuff like the background system, one unique thing, and escalation die and now we're seeing "Actually the game did nothing good and there's no point to a 2nd edition" The game absolutely should get a 2nd edition that hopefully fixes the many weak points we've identified and has plenty of room for iteration. It's in the bloated 'D&D-alike' sub genre but that's also realistically the biggest slice of the RPG market even if it's fallen out of favor here. Y'all are better than this, and I can't wait to see the posts in a few years about how Forged in the Dark was always a garbage system no one liked when it came out and PBTA added nothing new to popular design space. Edit: by the way I actually love that goons tend to have such a critical eye when it comes to RPGs, since it's the only way games can iterate and improve. I just find it a head scratcher that we're so hyperbolic when the shiny newness fades and we realized Fate/13th Age/Iron Kingdoms/Shadow of the Demon Lord were flawed. 4e D&D seems to be the only game with a reasonable consensus about its strengths and weaknesses. Coolness Averted fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 01:40
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I don’t think goons are a hive mind. And I think it’s more accurate to say that people have identified 13th Age as a design that’s been left behind, and the first thing we’ve heard about the 2nd edition makes it seem like the authors are more interested in regression than progression.
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Aug 15, 2022 01:58
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Coolness Averted posted:It's wild to me that these forums seem to be the only area that so aggressively kills their darlings when it comes to RPGs. Like 13th Age was absolutely loved when it came out, and goons were cribbing stuff like the background system, one unique thing, and escalation die and now we're seeing "Actually the game did nothing good and there's no point to a 2nd edition" The people in this thread that don't like the game are probably not the ones that talked the game up a lot when it was shiny and new. I know people cooled on it as folks got more experience with and figured out the foibles of it, but I'd be surprised if many folks did a complete 180.
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Aug 15, 2022 01:58
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Also when you announce the new edition of your game with a sharp inhale of breath and "Hey remember how fired that guy and said he'd never be coming back?" that doesn't fill everyone with immediate confidence.
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Aug 15, 2022 02:01
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is that good posted:
Putting that on D&D is giving it far too much credit. That's literally the history of all nerd poo poo even before D&D existed.
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Aug 15, 2022 02:01
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Maxwell Lord posted:Except its version of CR actually works, mainly because SoD attacks work more gradually, and nothing needs magic items to damage it. Also largely true of 5e, actually. Like in playtests Finger of Death would slay anything under X hp, while in the final game it just cuts out the middleman and does that much damage. I believe you about CR and don't know offhand how common resistant to nonmagic is in 5e, though. IIRC that's werewolves among other things?
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Aug 15, 2022 02:02
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Resist to non magic is pretty common but also largely ignored and not thought about after level 4/5 as martials will almost certainly have some sort of magic weapon by then unless your DM hates you.
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Aug 15, 2022 02:06
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Maxwell Lord posted:Except its version of CR actually works, mainly because SoD attacks work more gradually, and nothing needs magic items to damage it. Staring at statblocks for a while is also more accurate than 5e CR though so... Like, not even insulting 13th Age, I don't remember its CR system well enough to criticize it, but that's like saying "Yeah, that gas station sushi didn't give me food poisoning," in terms of faint praise.
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Aug 15, 2022 02:11
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Literally the only thing I remember about 13th Age is all these bullshit Tweet sidebars that were like "hey what if fighters sucked instead you want that?" so obviously it's huge that they should probably bring him back.
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Aug 15, 2022 02:15
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Coolness Averted posted:It's wild to me that these forums seem to be the only area that so aggressively kills their darlings when it comes to RPGs. Like 13th Age was absolutely loved when it came out, and goons were cribbing stuff like the background system, one unique thing, and escalation die and now we're seeing "Actually the game did nothing good and there's no point to a 2nd edition" I mean, you can definitely put me down as someone who's constantly been saying that 13th Age is great but could really use a second edition, and now I'm unhappy because they're doing things that will mean I don't buy it now that it's coming.
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Aug 15, 2022 02:19
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Kai Tave posted:Two things are broadly known from primary sources: You might be able to note a pattern by compiling a ton of different data points going back decades, but that's assuming that data is still available. Roll20 active games, ICv2 reports, DriveThru sales figures, etc. would all be interesting to see charted out. None of this would help information on 4e much though, since most of 4e's active time predates Roll20, and everything involving online or subscription sales figures for 4e is a black hole from the outside. Actually, now that there's more virtual tabletop platforms, that does make me wonder if any of them report on active game data like roll20 does? is that good posted:unfortunately, DnD culture somehow produces a Kind Of Guy who has been rigorously trained that if they're the most tedious person in the room they're correct, somehow completely oblivious that the silence at the end of their conversations is the howling void of nobody being able to give a gently caress anymore Brave of you to subtweet the whole Traditional Games subforum like this.  TheDiceMustRoll posted:Anyway have a good night, I got a game night to get to - we're starting a campaign of Dungeon World - excited! Trying to play it cool like you're unbothered and moving on with your life doesn't work if you have an established history of running back into a thread days later to tell people to gently caress off for firing back at your last parting shots, fyi. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 02:22
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I really gave 13th Age an honest try when it was new and found it didn't scratch the itch I wanted from a game people were billing as a "4E successor" which is engaging tactical combat with a lot of robust build options, in particular I agree with the assessment that the martial classes all felt really lackluster, fiddly, or both. I'd rather game a game like Lancer or Panic at the Dojo or something if I want to do that, and if I want something more abstract and narrative-y then I'd rather use other games. That said, it's apparent that 13th Age has its devoted fans and it's fine if it's just Not For Me, but I definitely think that it gets recommended as a "4E style game" more often than it really merits, and I think trying to compare it to 4E that way does it a disservice both if you're trying to approach it as a potential 4E substitute and if you're approaching it from its own merits.
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Aug 15, 2022 02:23
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13th Age is definitely not a DnD4e substitute (because its whole gimmick is that the game is properly designed to be gridless and not measure distances). I did like it though, and a 2e makes sense because it's main problems are fixable. - Make more power-based martials - Make backgrounds just "pick three, they're all at +4" (basically the same as Facts in Godbound and WWN) - Kill off ritual magic as a class feature, instead you can just do out of combat magic if you have an appropriate background - death to ability scores  You can do all the above as houserules in 13A right now pretty easily except you gotta scour the homebrew site to find some good alt-classes. With all that in place it's (to me) what people actually want from DnD5e: a game with moderately crunchy but quick combat and pretty goofy freeform out of combat where you make up some bullshit and say "yeah I totally get a +4 here because uhhh I learned rope-climbing while I was in the Hell Circus, that's one of my backgrounds"
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Aug 15, 2022 02:33
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