|
Balance for mp, let LL bonuses in SP and general lord skills be where poo poo gets crazy imo
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 15:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 00:44 |
|
|
Cardboard Fox posted:I've never actually played as Bretonnia. How do you deal with sieges and minor settlement battles when stacking cavalry, or at least having a large part of your army dedicated to ground cav? I imagine the endgame scenario is a full stack of Pegasus Knights flying over the walls and demolishing everyone, which seems fun, but what about early/mid game? There's no supply lines, so you can have an army made of archers and trebuchets to follow your good army around.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 15:11
|
|
|
gently caress just release it early CA drat
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 15:15
|
|
|
Here is my bug prediction. It will be possible to play as a crisis faction, say orcs, and have your faction be the crisis, spawning a bunch of armies for you.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 15:34
|
|
|
Third World Reagan posted:Here is my bug prediction. I'm honestly surprised no content creators have tested this yet
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 15:35
|
|
|
99pct of germs posted:Lahmia lost its 10-slot status for some reason in IE. LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:07
|
|
|
Cardboard Fox posted:I've never actually played as Bretonnia. How do you deal with sieges and minor settlement battles when stacking cavalry, or at least having a large part of your army dedicated to ground cav? I imagine the endgame scenario is a full stack of Pegasus Knights flying over the walls and demolishing everyone, which seems fun, but what about early/mid game? Minors are easy, ride to an undefended point and punish slow armies real bad. Cavalry have mobility. You can game the AI by stacking your non mobile units in one wall, your cavalry closer to it then not but at a roughly midish point, start the battle and ride to an undefended door and break it down with 1-4 cav attacking it. The way I see it the defenders have to pick a starting point somewhere and if they're watching me move and picking their entrenched points based on that then my advantage as a more mobile army is the option to pick up and ride to another static point. Brett also has decent artillery and archers if you want to have a fist of 6-10+ cavalry that wait for holes in the walls to form.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:11
|
|
|
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think I'm going to do Skarsnik for my first run rather than Volkmar. I always liked both his character and his faction bonuses, and the struggle in game 2 was the initial breakout. It's got the same appeal as Ghorst in that you are fielding massive armies of cheap poo poo buffed to christ backed with a goon squad of elite heroes. The gobbos themselves can be buffed to have up to like 60 MA and 35 charge bonus at higher levels and the squig riders go even more off kilter. Back them with some Skulkers and spider archers and some cheap rear end doom divers and you've got a pretty effective mid tier army that costs like 1100 upkeep. It might not fly against a super elite army from another race, but you can field 3 of them for every super elite army an enemy can field. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Aug 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:12
|
|
|
Brets will also be able to utilize allied infantry with the outpost system now. Having some greatswords or longbeards or whatever to work your siege towers/rams will help a lot
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:13
|
|
|
DeathSandwich posted:You know, the more I think about it, the more I think I'm going to do Skarsnik for my first run rather than Volkmar. Big Bosses get a wolf mount and 80+ speed by level 4, mine were doing 120+ with Skarsnik's aoe buff and forseeker, they're hateful little missiles annihilating backline archers and lone wizards.  Skarsnik is fun as hell, a real big brain campaign. Try stacking your entire army in a single ball and stealthing it immediately, especially in a siege...
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:15
|
|
|
Where is my arghys lets play
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:22
|
|
|
Grimgor Ironhide turn 150 Normal Mode EZ Chaos invasion guide
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:28
|
|
|
CA seems to be having more fun where they can in IE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEz5oIKrLu8
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:41
|
|
|
BabelFish posted:CA seems to be having more fun where they can in IE. OK but actually, what is that flag button he clicks at 7 seconds in to warp to another part of the map? Is that new, or a mod? It's not in the current Realms campaign at least.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:51
|
|
|
Muscle Tracer posted:OK but actually, what is that flag button he clicks at 7 seconds in to warp to another part of the map? Is that new, or a mod? It's not in the current Realms campaign at least. I think he's searching for the name of the lord? is that in WH3? I dropped 3 after one time through RoC and haven't played since before the first patch.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:53
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:Big Bosses get a wolf mount and 80+ speed by level 4, mine were doing 120+ with Skarsnik's aoe buff and forseeker, they're hateful little missiles annihilating backline archers and lone wizards. Or stealthing a doomstack of arachnaroks and / or trolls. Like, with - 40% upkeep on gobbos faction wide let's you field a whole bunch of lovely little monsters. I still legit say that squig riders are pretty high key the best greenskin cav. Good ap, immune to psych, bonus vs infantry and poison, and for Skarsnik they cost like 80 upkeep.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:54
|
|
|
moonmazed posted:this is what happens when you try to balance around pvp < What, are you high? AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Ehh, thats why we have certain units that were nerfed into uselessness in SP (because they were too powerful in MP). Things like Depth Guard and that one really fun but now completely anemic Lizardman dino unit that was added in one of the later DLCs that I cant remember. I guess it's this? Realize that when people are complaining about this they are talking about one or two units and occasions not a general trend. The game is not remotely balanced around or for pvp* and if you think so and that this is part of some move or trend to take the fun and diversity out of things then you are imagining things to get angry at. *Not to say there aren't changes and such in patches with the goal of balancing multiplayer, but that never has been nor will it ever be the main focus of patches for this game. Rabelais D posted:I'm sure it's true that domination is much easier to set up and doesn't require house rules, but we never really heard about how annoying those rules were until WHIII showed up and people started defending domination: there were plenty of regular WHII tournaments that went really well and got lots of views regardless. Then I guess you never listened to what the people organizing those tournaments said. Or checked out said rules or looked into what Warhammer 1 and 2 competetive games were like before the rules were more defined and better enforced. Domination needs work, but it's absolutely the right way to go, even if I think what most people wanted was what you get with certain of the maps where it's less "capture lanes" and more "land battles with objectives", because the maps are very important for what a match looks like and what kind of faction and army is viable (except Slaanesh and VC at the moment do well on pretty much everyone). Rabelais D posted:This is probably a symptom of the poor reception of the game and the dearth of content so far. It's going to be interesting to see if the release of Immortal Empires can help it muster more viewing figures: will this summer championship get anywhere close to the 350k views that the 2021 WHII World Championship got on the Total War channel? This one is not getting to that level, the playerbase and people being excited about the game is what draws them to watch tournaments and battle replays for this game I'm pretty sure, not the other way around. Also worth noting that this was an early access tournament playing with content that like 99% of current and prospective players do not have access to. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Aug 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 17:38
|
|
>
|
It'd be better if CA set up it up so the PvP and Campaign stats were split somehow (although it will not happen at this point); maybe it's better now but pre-Greenskins rework CA definitely kept shooting Greenskins in the foot due to MP when they already weren't great in campaign.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 17:59
|
|
|
RoyalScion posted:It'd be better if CA set up it up so the PvP and Campaign stats were split somehow (although it will not happen at this point); maybe it's better now but pre-Greenskins rework CA definitely kept shooting Greenskins in the foot due to MP when they already weren't great in campaign. That's never going to happen and probably would be a terrible idea. I think there are people who are grossly exaggerating how much the occasional nudge for MP balance is killing things in SP, it's loving shouting at clouds. It's the same thing with the hyperbole about Skaven pre-Queek. I don't buy that that Greenskins were nerfed into uselessness in campaign pre-rework because of MP balance, people were disatisfied with them because of their dated campaign mechanics making them feel stale and IIRC autoresolve loving them over. Blaming that on some nefarious MP nerfs is just ridiculous. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Aug 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 18:10
|
|
|
Yeah the Old Greenies were terrible because of about eight campaign layer anchors, they fought just fine if you could field the drat armies. You didn't have tech tree weaknesses, diplomacy weaknesses, super weak and bad waagh mechanics or terrible building unit access in multiplayer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 18:16
|
|
|
Muscle Tracer posted:OK but actually, what is that flag button he clicks at 7 seconds in to warp to another part of the map? Is that new, or a mod? It's not in the current Realms campaign at least. You can see the text box it opens up later with "fow on" in it, so I think it's a debug console type thing that he's using to turn off the fog of war and look around the map. Like this
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 18:53
|
|
|
There is no way any faction is going to be weak because of PvP balance since most of the faction power comes from campaign map stuff. It's a problem for unit balance though. Unbreakable units seem incredibly useful in domination mode but I consider it a detrimental trait for units in my main armies. Trolls are way better than chaos spawn because you won't lose them. Unit recruit cost or upkeep does not take this into account.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 18:55
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:I guess it's this? Realize that when people are complaining about this they are talking about one or two units and occasions not a general trend. The game is not remotely balanced around or for pvp* and if you think so and that this is part of some move or trend to take the fun and diversity out of things then you are imagining things to get angry at. If you think I'm mad its pretty funny. If me saying "man I hope Ghorst's campaign doesnt get nerfed because he is doing well in MP because I've seen other units I enjoyed using in campaign get nerfed because of MP" has turned into "you're imagining things you angry nerd" I'm going to laugh my rear end off.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:13
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Wait do you think I'm mad or are you using my post as an example? Because you're imagining things if you think I'm mad. No, sorry. I mean that what you brought up with certain units having been nerfed because of being overpowered in multiplayer, but that this is not really a big trend outside of those few units. e: Those nerfs were too big and weren't really popular for multiplayer either, people wanted to be able to use depth guard and have them be good. The problem is that CA hit them too big never really readjusted them in any sense (at least during warhammer 2's lifetime). e2: And I know that the Ghorst example you brought up was just a quick example, but I think it's a good one, because probably all he really needs for multiplayer balance is a cost increase because he is waaay undercosted for what he brings to the table. Hopefully CA doesn't do more than that with him. That's the type of change you'll never even know was there for campaign but does alot for multiplayer balance. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Aug 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:20
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:No, sorry. I mean that what you brought up with certain units having been nerfed because of being overpowered in multiplayer, but that this is not really a big trend outside of those few units. Neither were touched since (until WH3 I guess) and I dont understand why instead of nuking their abilities and/or stats, why not just raise the price in MP and maybe tune the abilities and/or stats down a hair?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:31
|
|
|
orangelex44 posted:Enticity is literally one of the top 5 players on the planet, and it's also less about "how hard is it for a player" and more "how likely is it for the AI to get stomped when I'm playing someone else". Malaketh's start is also probably not particularly hard in a player's hands, you're still Dark Elves and can fix most of your problems with a single Black Ark in range. The point is mostly that Mannfred is still a god-tier lord and you can do the same old VC tactics that always worked(blob your enemies on garbage chaff and then kill them instantly with winds of death) except your raise dead pool is now enormously better. For someone who isn't Enticity and is instead a normal player playing on normal settings(i.e. not legendary with the earliest endgame invasion possible and not immediately declaring war on every single faction they meet), he's going to be absolutely fine because all of the things that made vampire count campaigns degenerate before are still in effect except moreso and his initial starting position is not remotely as rough as it looks. quote:As others have said, this just isn't true. Platypus, in particular, didn't reach for Vampire Counts as his first option in either of his series even though he wasn't prevented by bans (most bans were actually Tzeentch, not Slaanesh or VC). It was enough for me that I'm even starting to think that a "fast" patch might not be necessary (e.g. within a couple weeks); the meta might just need some time to breathe. The perceived concern where melee >>> ranged might be true, but it also may just be that ranged is simply harder to do without actually being weaker. The only things that showed up in the tournament which I think look like they might need "fast" tweaking are Pit of Shades(this being crazy contributes to Slaanesh's power), VC(Ghorst on the cart costs half as much as he should for a mortis effect so killing him is pointless and their tarpitting probably needs to be weaker), possibly Slaanesh marauders(they're really fuckin good for the cost), and possibly Festus - though this seems to be mostly down to "mortis effects are the meta and Festus has a superior mortis for cheap-ish" and less "Festus's toolkit is too good"; he's quite vulnerable to lord sniping with even mediocre snipers like manticores and he costs enough that killing him is worth it unlike Ghorst. Warriors of Chaos might end up being pretty overtuned in the long run with more play because their roster went from "relatively narrow and restricted" to "the biggest and most versatile roster in the entire game", but that's the kind of thing that will absolutely require a lot more testing to become clear. AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Ok cool. I'm sleep deprived so I wasnt sure. And yeah my main concern is a trend in one (albeit high-level-of-play) tournament will garner so much whining that CA will, for example, nerf Ghorst into the ground in such a way it will change his campaign from being potentially a lot of fun and different to nothing special. They can do whatever they want in MP (since I dont play MP) as long as I can keep my fun in SP. I enjoyed Depth Guard being (too) good and was sad to see them turned into junk and I think the Lizardman unit I;m thinking of was the Ancient Salamander that went from a hell of a lot of fun to "never again". Literally the only times I can think of where CA ever nerfed a unit for MP purposes and ended up actually ruining them in singleplayer are specifically depth guard and ancient salamanders, and as randarkman said those specific nerfs were deeply unpopular even in multiplayer because they were far too much and ruined the units there too. In almost every other case I can think of where they do MP nerfs they either roll the old campaign behavior into lord traits, skills, faction traits, or researchable techs so it can be just as broken in SP as it was before. They have sometimes made specific nerfs to overpowered campaign stuff but that's a different matter than the campaign experience getting collateral damaged by MP tweaks. MP balance is tricky because sometimes you can't just go "well make it more expensive in MP and keep it broken!" because you end up with a situation where if the unit is broken enough it's still probably worth paying for if you tweak the cost upwards - until you increase the cost enough that no one ever uses it again. Kanos fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Aug 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:33
|
|
|
I hope this and the DLC go on sale for the "relaunch" on the 23rd. I played the Gamepass version when it came out since it was like $80 + taxes in our crazy canadian dollars.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:34
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Neither were touched since (until WH3 I guess) and I dont understand why instead of nuking their abilities and/or stats, why not just raise the price in MP and maybe tune the abilities and/or stats down a hair? You're not wrong. That type of light touch in general is the better way to balance things IMO, more so if patch cycles are relatively quick (which unfortunately they never really were during warhams 2, maybe we're going to be more lucky this time around). I don't think what happened to the Depth Guard and Ancient Salamander is a case of pvp balancing being bad in general, but just generally a case of too big and too quick changes (especially nerfs) being a bad idea in general for balancing. It can "balance" things by just making an overpowered unit bad and unviable while still leaving the faction as a whole viable, but you would have had ways to do that without just killing that unit. Depth Guard have definitely been brought back from the pits for IE by most accounts, at least for multiplayer (and probably so in singleplayer as well). I don't know about the Ancient Salamander yet, but hopefully it receives some love. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Aug 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:37
|
|
|
How on earth would whining that multiplayer Ghorst has a mount option that's a 1000 gold too cheap affect single player? He will get nerfed because the Arghy's of the world will lose their Hammerer doomstacks against him.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:41
|
|
|
The Ancient Salamander got some small buffs late in WH2 to the point I was seeing some people bring it again in MP.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:42
|
|
|
The WoC balancing point is that base marauders are kind of poo poo, and the elite + marked units are profoundly expensive. It'll be interesting to see how things shake out in multiplayer. I'd expect most are going to commit pretty hard to get like 2-3 elite things and then fill out your roster with marauders and horsemen for capture weight. Maybe we see people go for the happy medium and skip chosen in favor of standard warriors? Maybe throw in a hell cannon and dragon ogres?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:44
|
|
|
I think Ghorst and Necromancers in general have long had a reputation of being flimsy nerds when you had the choice to pick a super combatant vampire lord so it's understandable they would miss the mark on his price point while also buffing up necromancers in wh2 and beyond.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:45
|
|
|
The entire thing that made Ghorst oppressive in the tournament is that if you bring him with nothing but his cart he costs like 700 gold for a mortis engine effect, which is less than half the price range units with mortis engine effects usually start costing. Killing him is a waste of time because it takes a lot of effort to dig him out of a chaff blob and they'll just resummon him for peanuts anyway, so he's effectively a nearly free impossible to remove mortis in a game mode that heavily incentivizes bump and grind fighting in a faction that is incredibly good at bump and grind fighting. His abilities and stuff are totally fine, that one is literally just a "make this guy cost more in MP" tweak that will work.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:53
|
|
|
Just play normal battles so you don't actually have to care about hyper-balancing and the Perfidious Multiplayer Cabal. Instead you can just stare in slack-jawed wonder as the toys you played with in high school come to life and smash into each other for ten minutes and then you win. it's what I do
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:59
|
|
|
DaysBefore posted:Just play normal battles so you don't actually have to care about hyper-balancing and the Perfidious Multiplayer Cabal. Instead you can just stare in slack-jawed wonder as the toys you played with in high school come to life and smash into each other for ten minutes and then you win. To be fair, regular multiplayer pitched battles aren't exactly balanced perfectly either, it's just that things degenerate in different directions (ex: corner camping) . I get why a lot of major tournaments are moving towards Dominition - it gives contestants active objectives to work towards and the reinforcement system is neat and engaging and something interesting for spectators. The problem hits when you've got multiple factions that are not good at rapid redeployment and pushing objectives and multiple that were functionally built around it. Just do what I do and skip multiplayer completely. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 20:14
|
|
|
Re: crises: More or less what I was hoping for. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 21:18
|
|
|
So that is a Nagash event confirmed once Nagash comes out right? E: vvvv haha I somehow missed that. So Nagash is coming. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Aug 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 21:21
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:So that is a Nagash event confirmed once Nagash comes out right? Well one of the current events is literally Nagash's black pyramid coming online and spewing out skeletons... so...
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 21:27
|
|
|
Kanos posted:The entire thing that made Ghorst oppressive in the tournament is that if you bring him with nothing but his cart he costs like 700 gold for a mortis engine effect, which is less than half the price range units with mortis engine effects usually start costing. Killing him is a waste of time because it takes a lot of effort to dig him out of a chaff blob and they'll just resummon him for peanuts anyway, so he's effectively a nearly free impossible to remove mortis in a game mode that heavily incentivizes bump and grind fighting in a faction that is incredibly good at bump and grind fighting. Honestly there were a few games where people threw the match by not killing Ghorst. Even if he can be resummoned the guy has like 20 speed, it'll take him a good minute or two just to waddle his way back in even after banking the resources. Plus isn't there a cooldown on resummoning units after they die? Any relief from the mortis effect is worth it probably. It was infuriating in one game watching Ghorst survive on 10% health while Nurgle had 3 heroes right next to him killing chaff or just standing there exploiting a bug. Another big winner was Wind of Death. Holy moly that thing still slaps and it seems it's been out of meta just enough for people to forget to fear it. That Orc vs VC game was brutal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 21:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 00:44 |
|
|
Nephthys posted:Honestly there were a few games where people threw the match by not killing Ghorst. Even if he can be resummoned the guy has like 20 speed, it'll take him a good minute or two just to waddle his way back in even after banking the resources. Plus isn't there a cooldown on resummoning units after they die? Any relief from the mortis effect is worth it probably. That's the crux of what makes him so strong. You can't ignore him and let him run amok because the mortis will kill you, but anything that can actually kill him at a reasonable rate costs several times what he does and while they're reenacting Benny Hill trying to pin him down and kill him all that gold isn't doing anything to the rest of Ghorst's army while Ghorst's expensive pieces and other casters can run amok. Respawn timers exist but they're not terribly long - if you kill Ghorst early on he'll simply respawn, if you kill him too late to respawn and be relevant that means that he was mortising your army for a very long time. There was a game in the finals where a player went Tzeentch and tried for an assassination build against him and it failed utterly because the value ratios are too lopsided.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 22:07
|
|