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Rigel posted:You can't be compelled to tell anyone what you know unless you are given some kind of immunity from prosecution. you can be if congress or a court decides your assertion is not valid. Then if you refuse to testify, you can be held in contempt- be tried and convicted either in court or in congress and whatever punishment this leads to. congress can vote to refer prosecution to the DOJ, also, under a criminal statute for contempt but then it goes through the courts IF a US attorney decides to bring it to a grand jury and IF that grand jury gives the go ahead. This way is slower and (allegedly) less politically motivated. whether that actually happens is another thing altogether
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Aug 16, 2022 00:38
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Rigel posted:Congress has the ability, which they rarely use (majority vote of the house or senate, or 2/3 vote of a committee), to give you "congressional immunity". You then have to answer questions and anything you say can't be used by any prosecutor in the country against you. It is a decision by congress, the DOJ is powerless to stop it, and unwise uses of this power has screwed up prosecutions before. How does this grant apply to state governments?
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Aug 16, 2022 01:02
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Cranappleberry posted:you can be if congress or a court decides your assertion is not valid. Then if you refuse to testify, you can be held in contempt- be tried and convicted either in court or in congress and whatever punishment this leads to. If the prosecutor was very careful not to read any of the testimony in congress, and they found an untainted jury, could they proceed with prosecution using other evidence?
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Aug 16, 2022 01:06
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https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1559312970173259784?s=20&t=k2pPd98F1WjomI5YjVaFgA Looks like there were no passports taken.
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Aug 16, 2022 01:08
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Leon Sumbitches posted:https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1559312970173259784?s=20&t=k2pPd98F1WjomI5YjVaFgA Or they were already returned
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Aug 16, 2022 01:16
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Cognac McCarthy posted:Or they were already returned Why would they take them just to return them when trump threw a tantrum?
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Aug 16, 2022 01:25
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Discendo Vox posted:How does this grant apply to state governments? If someone is granted immunity from prosecution at the federal level in exchange for testimony, the states usually can not use their testimony to prosecute them under state laws. If they can find other evidence that is completely unrelated to the testimony, then they could still use that. This also goes both ways, after a couple decisions in 1964, someone granted immunity by a state court at the state level usually can't have their testimony used against them by the Feds, either. So when the states and Feds are going after the same person, they should work together to work out their investigation and prosecution strategy.
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Aug 16, 2022 02:09
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Cranappleberry posted:you can be if congress or a court decides your assertion is not valid. This sentence is doing a lot of work, though. It really does have to be invalid, and realistically it is a judge that is going to decide. If a judge thinks there is any reasonable possibility that answering questions could lead to prosecution, even if the witness was innocent but still feared prosecution, then they aren't going to be compelled. If someone does get forced to answer questions and it turns out the court and congress was wrong and they really did incriminate themselves, then it would likely be treated as if they did have immunity, so you might as well just give immunity.
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Aug 16, 2022 02:14
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The US definitely tries to compel testimony. Journalists are occasionally thrown in jail for not revealing their sources, because they can't take the fifth since they nor their family are are under any threat of prosecution. This happened when Cheney revealed Plame was a CIA agent, one of the journalists who broke the story spent some time in jail because they didn't reveal a source. Not clear to me if Graham can take the fifth because I don't know if what he's accused of is criminal. If it is, he may be screwed because his call was pretty widely reported. If he takes the fifth, I _think_ he can't say anything. So he can't tell the jury he intended it to be a friendly call, and then take the fifth when someone asks if Trump asked him to do it.
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Aug 16, 2022 02:25
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cr0y posted:Why would they take them just to return them when trump threw a tantrum? Stamp "not valid" on them
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Aug 16, 2022 02:30
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StumblyWumbly posted:If he takes the fifth, I _think_ he can't say anything. So he can't tell the jury he intended it to be a friendly call, and then take the fifth when someone asks if Trump asked him to do it. Aside from saying your name and very basic facts about yourself, you usually can't answer any questions at all. We don't allow you to selectively choose to plead the 5th for this question, but not that one, once you start talking you have waived it. Congressional committees know this. So when they show someone pleading the 5th over and over again for an hour, they are doing it theatrically to make them look bad. They know they can't start answering seemingly-innocuous questions like "do you believe in a peaceful transition of power" if it could at all be argued to be related to the question you refused to answer.
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Aug 16, 2022 02:31
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So https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/15/politics/eric-herschmann-subpoena-grand-jury-investigation/index.html Wait, there's a grand jury for January 6? When did that happen? vvv The earliest I've found is around 7/25, some reports from those questioned. I knew after the hearings that "DOJ was investigating" but had not heard a grand jury was empaneled. PhantomOfTheCopier fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 02:51
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:When did that happen? I'm not sure if we even know when they started. We know there are a lot of different investigations for different Trump crimes, but the DOJ has been very quiet.
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Aug 16, 2022 02:54
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cr0y posted:Why would they take them just to return them when trump threw a tantrum? Trump is a slob. They could legitimately have been shoved into some random folder full of nuclear secrets. The guy doesn't read or even so much as listen to a podcast. He just asserts what he wants to be true and then yells a lot. Do you think someone with so lazy a mind would be even remotely organized in his personal effects? That's what he pays people for. (Well, what he says he'll pay them for. He stiffs most people who work for him.) The most likely explanation, though, is that he was using his usual tactic: throw lots of noise out and see if a message sticks. If it does, keep hammering it. If his base latches onto  his passports you can drat well bet he'll keep claiming the FBI has them.
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Aug 16, 2022 03:30
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LeeMajors posted:I love that our endless system of appeals allows these loving weasels to just shop for judges indefinitely. Money, and the people who have a lot of it.
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Aug 16, 2022 04:32
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Whelp time for me to eat crow. They were taken and then returned 🤷
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Aug 16, 2022 05:18
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Is there any reason for trump to suspect the mole might be in his legal team? Is there ever a circumstance where a practicing lawyer would and legally could alert fbi to a crime? Like, could a disloyal lawyer that knows 'the rules' gently caress him over while cashing his checks? Or is that just a 'Definitely not' and trump can at least trust /them/?
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Aug 16, 2022 05:40
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Uglycat posted:Is there any reason for trump to suspect the mole might be in his legal team? Is there ever a circumstance where a practicing lawyer would and legally could alert fbi to a crime? Like, could a disloyal lawyer that knows 'the rules' gently caress him over while cashing his checks? Yes, if they have information that their client is going to do a crime.
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Aug 16, 2022 05:45
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yes, if they have information that their client is going to do a crime. Any chance any secret service agents would report to doj? Could a ss agent assigned to Trump possibly be 'the mole'? Or is that ridiculous? E: nsa and cia could feed intel to doj, but only for parallel reconstruction and with some very strict limitations when it comes to us citizens on us soil, do I have that one right? And it's unlikely there's any cia ops at maralago, and any under covers there would be fbi, yeah? Uglycat fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 05:49
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Uglycat posted:Any chance any secret service agents would report to doj? Could a ss agent assigned to Trump possibly be 'the mole'? Or is that ridiculous? gently caress if I know. I just like listening to enough law podcasts that I remembered some of how client confidentiality works : lawyers really don't want to know that you're going to do a crime.
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Aug 16, 2022 05:51
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Uglycat posted:Any chance any secret service agents would report to doj? Could a ss agent assigned to Trump possibly be 'the mole'? Or is that ridiculous? It's possible and to some extent entirely likely that secret service agents would report on disastrously mishandled classified materials if they were aware of that. Strictly speaking yeah it would be fbi or other doj counter intelligence people with an exception being that actual intel agencies can work domestically if the target is foreign and particularly if the target is connected to a foreign military or intelligence agency. that said they're generally so mindful of how bad it looks for them to do anything domestically that whatever they had would almost definitely get punted over to the FBI. Anyways I think the most likely thing is that a whole bunch of people in Trump's camp are talking to investigators, particularly about the classified material stuff because that is poo poo that you lose your career and go to prison for 5-20 years over. If you're a patsy or in some way responsible for an intelligence breach then you're just hosed and it doesn't really matter if you were ignorant or didn't have malevolent intentions or whatever. As long as that material is present and insufficiently secured and you're aware of it and doing nothing, you're on the hook for it, to say nothing of the fact that there's a tangible, real national security interest in doing the right thing, too. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 06:33
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Herstory Begins Now posted:it's possible and to some extent entirely likely that secret service agents would report on disastrously mishandled classified materials if they were aware of that. Suppose a foreign intelligence agency, closely allied with the US, got some relevant sigint. How likely is it they'd report it to bidens administration?
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Aug 16, 2022 06:34
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i have no clue on that either in generalities or in specifics. probably would depend on just how closely allied, but gently caress if I know
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Aug 16, 2022 06:43
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Herstory Begins Now posted:i have no clue on that either in generalities or in specifics. probably would depend on just how closely allied, but gently caress if I know If Israel or The UK believed they had indications that Donald Trump was about to transfer custody of US nuclear secrets to the Saudis, for example. Would they inform Biden? e: about the passports, there's this one little inconsistency that I keep coming back to. Trump claimed 3 passports, one expired. The doc the feds sent indicating their return states that there's 3 passports, two expired. Nobody has commented upon this (seemingly insignificant) discrepency. Why is it there though? e2: the '2 passports (1 expired)' was the first we heard that he had more than one passport, and that caused a quick explanation for why it might make sense for trump to have exactly those passports. Then we see the doc from the feds (trump leaks that too, yeah?), and there's an inventory discrepency. Uglycat fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 06:45
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Uglycat posted:If Israel or The UK believed they had indications that Donald Trump was about to transfer custody of US nuclear secrets to the Saudis, for example. Would they inform Biden? Do you need to like lie down for a while
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Aug 16, 2022 06:52
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idk but that seems like 15 layers of speculation built on speculation in either case
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Aug 16, 2022 06:54
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Uglycat posted:If Israel or The UK believed they had indications that Donald Trump was about to transfer custody of US nuclear secrets to the Saudis, for example. Would they inform Biden? Most likely they would do what they perceived to be in their best interests to do - what that calculous is and the circumstances it depends on is too complex to really break down. Israel and the UK both have vested interests in the status quo with the United States positioned as world hegemon. Who gives a gently caress about Trump lying about how many passports he has? Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 07:02
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Uglycat posted:Suppose a foreign intelligence agency, closely allied with the US, got some relevant sigint. How likely is it they'd report it to bidens administration?
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Aug 16, 2022 07:04
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LeeMajors posted:I love that our endless system of appeals allows these loving weasels to just shop for judges indefinitely. It's a feature, not a bug. This is the system working as intended.
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Aug 16, 2022 07:54
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Yinlock posted:It's a feature, not a bug. This is the system working as intended. And people commiting crimes a fraction as serious can be legally executed.
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Aug 16, 2022 08:34
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okay, hear me out the diplomatic passport is the one trump is insisting isn't expired because trump believes himself to still be president e - and he doesn't just believe he /had/ the power to declass at will; he believes he still /has/ that power e2 - or, at the least, he is still trying to convince the people that attacked the capital that he remains president to this day. Which is treason. Uglycat fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 08:44
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Uglycat posted:okay, hear me out Yup. That's his intended play. He'll insist on getting "his" property back, and is hoping that question will go to the Supreme Court where they'll announce its his because he is POTUS. A case that starts in small claims court will decide the Presidency, in this timeline.
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Aug 16, 2022 11:20
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So the whole passport thing... seems like they picked them up along with the other crap, the taint team found them and offered to return. At which point Trump starts whining about it. lol. https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1559324841681063936
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Aug 16, 2022 12:22
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Yeah Trump doesn't even know what's in the boxes. It's just his cool stuff he took to show off.
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Aug 16, 2022 12:34
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Uglycat posted:e: about the passports, there's this one little inconsistency that I keep coming back to. If there is an inconsistency between what Donald Trump says and what the DoJ says, the simplest example is that Donald Trump is a habitual liar who is currently spinning stories for the express purpose of falsely portraying the DoJ as being involved in unjust persecution against him. It's unlikely that there was any real significance to the passports at all.
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Aug 16, 2022 13:00
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Ynglaur posted:Yup. That's his intended play. He'll insist on getting "his" property back, and is hoping that question will go to the Supreme Court where they'll announce its his because he is POTUS. A case that starts in small claims court will decide the Presidency, in this timeline. The play isn't "I am literally the president," certainly not as SCOTUS is concerned. There's just no mechanism for a court case about mishandled (to put it lightly) classified documents to lead directly to SCOTUS ruling that he's the president, because that would have to involve successful lawsuits against each of the states he supposedly lost unfairly as the basis for that claim. As far as I know all those challenges and lawsuits have been dropped, so officially speaking it's a dead matter. Even if they restarted the process somehow, it would take at least a couple years for the cases to play out and reach SCOTUS, and by that time we will have gone through a whole other presidential election. The best he could hope for is SCOTUS somehow retroactively declaring he won the 2020 election and thus dropping the charges against him, but he wouldn't get to then be president again just to make up lost time. But really I don't think the justices Trump appointed to SCOTUS even believe he rightly won the election. Thomas might but Roberts would definitely not vote to retroactively overturn the election, especially since it's not even clear by what mechanism they would do that. As far as the institutional GOP is concerned, Trump was useful for delivering them years of power and control over the courts, but they don't literally need him to be president anymore. Trump's play is vague grievance, as in "I was cheated and I might just have to run again, we'll see!" It's not about getting conservatives currently in power to declare him president (especially because a lot of the conservatives in power really want him to shut up and get out of the way so they can focus on the actual work of building fascism), it's about getting his base riled up, lining his pockets, and willing to commit violence on his behalf going forward. Cognac McCarthy fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 14:49
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Uglycat posted:Suppose a foreign intelligence agency, closely allied with the US, got some relevant sigint. How likely is it they'd report it to bidens administration? If they're very friendly with the US? If nothing else, them alerting the Biden administration gives them quite a bit of diplomatic capital. Otherwise, any action they take would be influenced by what they have to gain or lose. If Canada catches wind of Trump trying to sell intel on Canadian military to Russia, Canada obviously has an interest in stopping that.
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Aug 16, 2022 14:51
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Yinlock posted:It's a feature, not a bug. This is the system working as intended. Oh no doubt, it’s just absolute loving nonsense.
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Aug 16, 2022 14:58
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Uglycat posted:Suppose a foreign intelligence agency, closely allied with the US, got some relevant sigint. How likely is it they'd report it to bidens administration? Pretty likely I’d say. This is what kicked off the Crossfire Hurricane investigation, a foreign intel asset/diplomat overhearing Trump team members bragging about how much crime they’re doing.
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Aug 16, 2022 15:34
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Red posted:If they're very friendly with the US? The easiest example here is Israel because they have outstanding SIGINT and would possibly find out if Trump passed info to the Saudis, either by direct or indirect means. They'd drop a dime so fast it would break the sound barrier.
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Aug 16, 2022 15:37
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