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I understand the point you're making but just lol at quoting a pretentious and out of touch game dev. I don't really need PvP in my game of choice. All my fave moments were PvE individual or collective accomplishments. I got a feeling all the FF14 fanatics aren't too concerned about PvP either cause a superficial reading of their PvP looks like a novelty.
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Aug 16, 2022 11:39
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I love good pvp and play tons of competitive, pvp games. I love good pve and play tons of chill or challenging pve games. I have yet to play a game that has good good pve, good pvp and gameplay that isn't terrible. I don't pvp a ton in MMOs because WoW-style, tab-targeting, RNG combat just doesn't feel good. It's disconnected and random. If I'm competing against other players I want skill to be the determining factor, not whoever has the most free time to grind special gear, or whoever got three lucky crits in a row.
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Aug 16, 2022 14:47
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kedo posted:I love good pvp and play tons of competitive, pvp games. Yeah I think a lot of the discussion is just taking MMOs as they are now/have been and how PvP could/would work within. I think you'd have to make something totally different for it to work.
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Aug 16, 2022 14:53
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I think what people want is emergent behaviour through player interaction. that doesn't necessitate PvP, but it's one obvious way of going about it.
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Aug 16, 2022 14:55
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cmdrk posted:I think what people want is emergent behaviour through player interaction. that doesn't necessitate PvP, but it's one obvious way of going about it. Imo it's more that emergent behavior is more likely to, uh, emerge if players have a way to compel other players to act in a certain way. You can set up all the situations you want but if someone can just walk past you and do it like it's "supposed to be done" then it becomes a lot more of an issue. It also depends on your definition of PvP. Does economic competition count? Does competition for resources? When I was 12 and allowed someone to die to a skeleton so I could steal the coal he was trying to mine in Runescape that was a form of PvP. Its more of a matter that you can stop people from directly killing each other but someone is going to find a way to release a pandemic in the capitol city and that's just going to be that.
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Aug 16, 2022 15:05
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cmdrk posted:I think what people want is emergent behaviour through player interaction. that doesn't necessitate PvP, but it's one obvious way of going about it. CuddleCryptid posted:Imo it's more that emergent behavior is more likely to, uh, emerge if players have a way to compel other players to act in a certain way. You can set up all the situations you want but if someone can just walk past you and do it like it's "supposed to be done" then it becomes a lot more of an issue. You're both right, and one of my favorite examples of this emergent gameplay necessitated by PvP: Cottage industries. Mercenary gathering groups, security transport trains to get money/gear through dangerous zones, border fences that flip gear at the border of those zones... ways that the designers didn't intend for folks to play but facilitated through well thought-out PvP-Economic relationships.
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Aug 16, 2022 15:22
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kedo posted:I love good pvp and play tons of competitive, pvp games. I have mentioned it before but give GW2 a try. Gear is not a factor at all in PvP.
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Aug 16, 2022 17:15
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crystalline conflict isn't perfect but it's the best FFXIV pvp has ever been. push da frickin crystal
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Aug 16, 2022 17:29
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Mr. Neutron posted:I have mentioned it before but give GW2 a try. Gear is not a factor at all in PvP. Oh I've played GW2 plenty, it is/was a great game, but I've just moved on.
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Aug 16, 2022 17:49
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Move on from GW2 to FF14 then back to GW2 if you like hotbar pvp. Maybe warhammer, age of reckoning.
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Aug 16, 2022 18:33
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ff14, WoW, and the now-minor mmos from days past that still have playerbases like ffxi and CoH already basically consume the tab targeting PvE market in its entirety. new games are not necessarily going to be able to compete in that space. what devs have been searching for for years is the eve-killer; and more to the point, a game that takes eve's appeal and multiplies it by an order of magnitude, which is why they're always chasing the pvp market. but i don't think anyone has actually learned the lessons from eve's successes and failures. attempts at making games like that always seem to be either grossly incompetent from the start, or slowly pushed toward being more like WoW by metric-huffing executives to the point that they become unfocused and bad because eve and WoW can't coexist in the same game
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Aug 16, 2022 20:53
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eve is the eve killer
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Aug 16, 2022 21:00
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You can tell a company making an "EVE killer" has no clue what they're doing if their number one focus isn't the actual PVP of EVE: the economy and the logistics.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:04
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that's true, but again, the biggest problem is still pvp design in most cases. in eve you sometimes get lucky and wreck rich idiots with expensive ships in your rifter, in classic mmos you can't even hit a guy 3 levels above you e: also, the map is arbitrarily large so you can find fun 1v1s if you're patient Truga fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 21:06
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EVE also has about six animations and a bunch of skyboxes, along with a handful of ships and floating rock models. It works for them but it's pretty telling when the release a new named update and front and center is "TURRET ANIMATIONS" every 3 years or so. You can't code your way out of the amount of money they save by not having to make a "normal" graphical mmo.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:20
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I quit Eve-Online for good this year, back in July they upped the monthly sub to $20.
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Aug 16, 2022 23:23
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Like the reality is that a solid mmo that can manage a lot of people [Which you require for any level of complexity like people are talking about], is tens of millions of dollars and half a decade of work before you start seeing money back. You do it right and you get something like EQ and FFXI where you will always be making some money off them, but it's still a lot of time and money invested upfront. And because the ones that are good can hold on for so long, you have a massive field you are competing in. You are competing against WoW and FFXIV, but also SWTOR and EQ and FFXI and Black Desert and a million smaller games. What is your mark? What is the thing that sets you apart? A few people will always keep trying it, because again: You do it right and you will *always* make money. But it's probably the hardest field to break into, even if you are only doing something small and cheap. Your small and cheap little mmo has to compete with some free to play tens of million dollar behemoth. You better be fun or interesting immediately.
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Aug 16, 2022 23:29
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:crystalline conflict isn't perfect but it's the best FFXIV pvp has ever been. push da frickin crystal Mind you, Blizzard were on the right track a couple of expansions ago with normalising gear in pvp and so on...but the poopsockers whined so away it went.
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Aug 16, 2022 23:43
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Itzena posted:I still find it funny that Blizzard has been struggling with this whole "Put the WAR into Warcraft" thing for To be fair, the format's one that's already in place and proven. What's impressive is that the jobs all feel special while not being too unbalanced (aside from Summoner/Paladin in Frontlines)
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Aug 16, 2022 23:47
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Can someone just make age of wushu but like good
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Aug 17, 2022 00:20
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crowfall was supposed to be an eve killer but they didn't really understand how eve worked all that well, they didn't really have the resources or tech to make the necessary scale possible, and they didn't know how to appeal to that market so they ended up just reverting to making darkfall again because the players they were in contact hated all the EVE-derived systems
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Aug 17, 2022 03:23
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Like lmao that they did connected islands to simulate EVE systems so they could have infinite tiny servers but then they capped out at like 10 islands with a cap less than your average wow server
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Aug 17, 2022 03:28
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Itzena posted:I still find it funny that Blizzard has been struggling with this whole "Put the WAR into Warcraft" thing for Buddy, this is some blizzlols echo chamber stuff. It's incredibly charitable to one group of devs while being aggressively uncharitable to another.
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Aug 17, 2022 04:50
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30.5 Days posted:Like lmao that they did connected islands to simulate EVE systems so they could have infinite tiny servers but then they capped out at like 10 islands with a cap less than your average wow server Like this is how an EvE set in a fantasy world almost needs to be, I think instead it would be smarter to interconnect things via roads. Do this and you could start with 50+ zones all interconnected, based on various survival mechanism. Call them "Imperial Highway's" or something and have guards on each end so players can move from server to server fairly safely. Like someone could almost do this with a survival style game right now. Zones could then be incredibly unique as it takes tons less server power to run games in this format. You could also more easily add things like conquerable zones, castles, player content. Downside obviously is that you need systems to tell people where populations are, ways to hunt, ways to hide, conquest etc. So this could done and its reasonable with todays tech so long as you can keep pops down for any single zone.
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Aug 17, 2022 05:59
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PyRosflam posted:Like this is how an EvE set in a fantasy world almost needs to be, I think instead it would be smarter to interconnect things via roads. Do this and you could start with 50+ zones all interconnected, based on various survival mechanism. Call them "Imperial Highway's" or something and have guards on each end so players can move from server to server fairly safely. This is how crowfall was intended to be/sort of was. They even had the concept of "vessels" where your character was craftable, just like ships in eve. They had offline advancement, just like eve. But they did it all hosed up and wrong. Like only having a handful of islands. Or like instead of having some parts of the map that were "lowsec" and some that were "highsec" they had completely different servers for lowsec and highsec. Or like for the offline advancement they had it so it literally took months of offline advancement to be a vaguely effective cog in a larger operation, and then people got mad that they couldn't do anything and so they more or less ripped it out of the game. Or like vessels were insanely annoying to craft without any way for people to buy lovely ones, and then they ended up making the lovely ones just free and indestructible while the slightly better ones are still super difficult to make. Oh and also they didn't really put in a very deep player settlement/defenses building system, so there wasn't much to do in terms of building defenses. And even if there was, defense building was a huge waste of everyone's time because conquering stuff was trivial for even 2 or 3 people if there wasn't a human player guarding it, so nobody wanted to waste time engaging with the PVP system outside of specifically fighting other players. So they ended up adding PVE grinding and levels just to give people something to do so they'd hang around long enough to encounter each other and fight. Or like none of this has a functioning market system built in. They made the whole EVE "player driven economy" while ALSO doing the early SWG "barter and manually visiting stalls" economy, and ALSO market stalls have to be crafted for ???Reasons??? and have insane interconnected crafting dependencies like everything else so there wasn't any clear way to for most people to get a market stall so nobody went to the market stall area so the stalls were worthless.
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Aug 17, 2022 07:52
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the thing that's really key to eve that would be genuinely hard to replicate in a fantasy setting is that space is extremely large and a sufficiently paranoid, alert, and canny player can duck out of encounters before they really begin in a lot of cases and just disappear into the void. i don't know how you give an elf swinging a pickaxe the same ability to bail out on sketchy situations that a mining ship in eve has and it's a pretty important factor in keeping people churning away at the bottom of the economy instead of quitting the game because they keep getting unavoidably ganked
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Aug 17, 2022 07:56
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Hamsters in crowfall could do it which was a lot of fun, actually. They have a stealth ability and some mobility abilities while stealthed (a blink and I think one other thing), and so if you reacted fast and mindgamed your attacker(s) you could get away despite the incredible amount of AOE every class in the game was packing. Obviously, one (1) race having a vital ability for the game to work isn't a big help. (Also all of this poo poo could be turned off by various disciplines)
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Aug 17, 2022 07:59
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Vinestalk posted:Buddy, this is some blizzlols echo chamber stuff. It's incredibly charitable to one group of devs while being aggressively uncharitable to another. Hell, there were some posts recently in the WoW subforum where someone had just got back into the game and wanted to know how to do better in PvP and the solutions were a) idle in ranked BGs until they've scavenged enough currency to leapfrog the gear grind completely or b) wait for the next expansion to launch in a few months.
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Aug 17, 2022 09:31
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Jazerus posted:the thing that's really key to eve that would be genuinely hard to replicate in a fantasy setting is that space is extremely large and a sufficiently paranoid, alert, and canny player can duck out of encounters before they really begin in a lot of cases and just disappear into the void. i don't know how you give an elf swinging a pickaxe the same ability to bail out on sketchy situations that a mining ship in eve has and it's a pretty important factor in keeping people churning away at the bottom of the economy instead of quitting the game because they keep getting unavoidably ganked ~Game fantasy~ wise my idea would be like scattering into deep forest before the fighting gets hot and making your way back to safety through a longer/stealthier route. Not sure how you'd make that actually fun to play though, I think the crowfall hamster skills sound like they might work for that vibe? Also lol at doing lowsec/highsec servers instead of areas in a supposed eve clone, how did they miss the point so badly 
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Aug 17, 2022 10:29
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Sea of Thieves with a single shard and a player led economy seems like the closest style of game you could get to EVE without setting it in space, but the server load for that would be horrendous.
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Aug 17, 2022 14:22
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PyRosflam posted:Like this is how an EvE set in a fantasy world almost needs to be, I think instead it would be smarter to interconnect things via roads. Do this and you could start with 50+ zones all interconnected, based on various survival mechanism. Call them "Imperial Highway's" or something and have guards on each end so players can move from server to server fairly safely. This is how Albion currently works as a "single world server". It works like this, let's take a look at this section of the world map:  Right now I'm in the circled town, Martlock. You can see the other areas adjacent to the town, connected by roads.  When you're in an area (you can think of it as a "tile" from the perspective of the servers) you have a detailed minimap of the immediate area. This is a capitol city which is why it's laid out like this with all the stalls and shops. Notice it tells you how many players are on the tile (among other things).   On the minimap you can still see the roads leading to the adjacent areas. Head up that road and you'll see the barrier of the tile that warps you to the adjacent area.  Walk through it and you're on the adjacent tile.  Again you can see in the bottom right that you're in the Eldon Hill area, and checking your minimap reveals more info about the immediate area and the type of resources available on this tile. It's a pretty basic area because it's a low level, city adjacent tile mostly for gathering and travelling to further, more lucrative/risky areas.  Each of the tiles, of which there are 800+, can support around 300 players simultaneously. This is how they manage to have multiple physical servers, but one logical megaserver without phasing. If anyone in the game is in Eldon Hill at the same time as you, you'll see them, but there are a number of cleverly designed gameplay mechanics to incentivize moving people around the map to load balance. Here's a couple of helpful high-level logical diagrams to illustrate the tiles a bit better than I can explain:   Each of the tiles are large enough to spend some time exploring/hunting players/hiding from and escaping ganks depending on what you're looking to do and have a couple of POIs so you're not spending tons of time in loading screens, and the load times between tiles are 3-10 seconds depending on your machine. Everything you mentioned (conquerable zones, castles, static and random dungeons, etc.) are present on these tiles.
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Aug 17, 2022 14:33
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Itzena posted:I still find it funny that Blizzard has been struggling with this whole "Put the WAR into Warcraft" thing for To be fair I think this is because FFXIV players don't have a set of preexisting expectations for PvP like WoW players do. By that I mean, FFXIV doesn't have people clamoring for pre-Stormblood PvP where you had all the PvE moves and stats instead of a discrete and truncated set of skills/stats that only exist in PvP. By contrast, in WoW I think a lot of the playerbase would be upset if PvP classes were heavily streamlined. FFXIV PvP almost feels like a MOBA compared to something like GW2 or WoW. I really enjoy CC a lot, got Crystal rank, and play a few games a week even in the off-season, but other than stat normalization I don't think it would translate to WoW that well.
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Aug 17, 2022 14:34
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FFXIV pvp would be a lot more fun to me if i could figure out how to tab target properly with 500000000 targets all trying to stop me from casting
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Aug 17, 2022 14:38
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More MMOs should have a defensive target, like how WAR did it.
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Aug 17, 2022 14:43
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oh man if i could just target the tank and cast offensive spells on his target automatically that would rock my entire world
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Aug 17, 2022 15:04
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blatman posted:FFXIV pvp would be a lot more fun to me if i could figure out how to tab target properly with 500000000 targets all trying to stop me from casting it definitely takes getting used to, Ignore Depth targeting especially shifts to cycling left-to-right once you have something targeted which can be jarring. it can help sometimes to select a party member who's fighting and hit target-of-target since you usually want to be swarming a single enemy anyway
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Aug 17, 2022 15:07
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blatman posted:oh man if i could just target the tank and cast offensive spells on his target automatically that would rock my entire world
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Aug 17, 2022 15:10
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Yeah you can "target of target" in FFXIV with a macro.
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Aug 17, 2022 15:11
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Pandaal posted:Yeah you can "target of target" in FFXIV with a macro. not even a macro, it's a supported keybind
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Aug 17, 2022 15:15
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Pandaal posted:Yeah you can "target of target" in FFXIV with a macro. My eyes glaze over when I have to consider making/relying on macros.
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Aug 17, 2022 15:23
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