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Nuns with Guns posted:I think tastes and personal worth are something that's hard to sift through when you're dealing with media and art that is dominated so wholly by one giant thing. Nobody is in deep enough with everything that interests them to move past the stuff that has mass market appeal and sift through the smaller projects. Someone who loves 5E might only know 5E. Someone who loves Lamentations of the Flame Princess and Vornheim and MYFAROG and is suspiciously fast to pull out the "separate the art from the artist!" line has probably made a studied, considered choice to be that way.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:09
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I'd agree if someone's in deep enough that for some reason they're championing MYFAROG, then they're doing it because they're a neo-nazi. It's not a game that has any other appealing or playable aspects to it. Lamentations of the Flame Princess stuff... if someone's already giving me weird vibes I'd pass on them. If they seemed reasonable otherwise, I'd want to hear an explanation for why they like that game over any other halfway decent OSR or D&D-ish game that isn't connected to Raggi or Zak. Plus how they'd miss all the poo poo involving them the past few 5+ years. I don't think they could give a good explanation but maybe there's a 5% chance they really did miss it from not being in the right online circles or only getting a specific spin on the situation?
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Aug 16, 2022 22:21
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Plenty of people wandered past a booth at gencon or just a rack at the game store, bought a thing, took it home to play it, and had no further interaction with the weird world of online RPG drama. I think it's fair to say most trad gamers don't habitually churn through twitter or post on forums about the RPGs they play. I would guess that most people who play D&D have no idea who mike mearls is. A significant proportion of american adults cannot name who the current president of the united states is. We live in a society where it's absurdly easy to be uninformed about all manner of things.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:26
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You're both right and that's why I used "and" not "or" when listing those products. The occasional lapse in taste is inevitable and not worth commenting on, it's when there's a consistent pattern that I side-eye. If someone's boosting chud products on the regular as part of a consistent pattern I will likely not trust them, even if they've not gone as far as MYFAROG.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:38
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Warthur posted:
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Aug 17, 2022 00:05
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This is a big reason why I tend to prefer games where there's ample stuff to do that isn't fights - think Call of Cthulhu where investigating and searching places and interviewing witnesses takes up more time than fights, and avoiding combat is clever and part of the challenge, for instance.
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Nuns with Guns posted:I'd agree if someone's in deep enough that for some reason they're championing MYFAROG, then they're doing it because they're a neo-nazi. It's not a game that has any other appealing or playable aspects to it.
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Aug 17, 2022 00:08
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Parkreiner posted:I feel like Reign cries out for this (between its Company meta-character serving the same purpose as Delta Green as an IC reason for new replacement characters to not break campaign continuity and its one-roll-character option) but that game is sufficiently obscure that I’m not aware of anyone trying. One day I will!
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Aug 17, 2022 00:10
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CitizenKeen posted:My secret shame is that I prefer the 5E port. Get out of my Dropbox
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Aug 17, 2022 00:12
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Discussions around gatekeeping as it relates to hobbies feels faintly ridiculous to me. In the academic and minority identity space it's about whether or not you have access to career progression or community support, respectively. Being gatekept out of tabletop gaming spaces? communities? for liking DnD is an absurd premise - the vast majority of tabletop gaming spaces and communities are exclusively focused on DnD, and the existence of a space where people don't like or don't talk about DnD doesn't meaningfully affect someone's access to games, people to talk to, or media to consume. It kind of feels like what's being discussed when people talk about gatekeeping here is being kept from the esteem of playing tabletop games the most correctly? idk what do people here actually mean when they're raising it?
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Aug 17, 2022 00:23
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I don't think I've seen a PbtA game in the vein of Dungeon World that I thought made good use of , uh, tA. Too many stats, rolling for damage, bad Defy Dangers, and the like, making an engine better suited to relationships, power, and drama into the same-ish thing you get when you try to run everything through D&D. Not necessarily bad, but a misapplication for sure. the new edition of 13th Age should be 13.5th Age
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Aug 17, 2022 00:26
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is that good posted:Discussions around gatekeeping as it relates to hobbies feels faintly ridiculous to me. In the academic and minority identity space it's about whether or not you have access to career progression or community support, respectively. However a bunch of nerds on an aging pay-to-post internet forum making GBS threads on the most popular RPG on the market for its very real mechanical failings and the lovely actions of its makers is not gatekeeping.
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Aug 17, 2022 00:39
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CaptCommy posted:What are the 3rd party supplements that stood out to you? The gold standard has to be Dark Alleys and Twisted Paths and Dark Pacts and Ancient Secrets by Martin Killman. They're such common recommendations for the 13th Age community that they have a dedicated channel in the 13th Age Discord. They're mostly great: Killman rebuilds and expands the classes a lot to make up for a lot of gaps in the core book. Ranged rogues, for example. And Killman rebuilt the Druid from the ground up to map to the framework of the Demonologist, and the Druid is better for it. One small hiccup - Killman's attempt at a more mechanically-satisfying Barbarian, called the Savage, was a little regressive in some phrasing, but it's my understanding he's apologized for that. The King of Dungeons by Baz Stevens is a great hack. The Overworld and Beyond is a great expansion of the implied setting[1]. And technically the Glorantha sourcebook is 3rd Party, though it's by the authors of 13th Age. Edit: Also, I'm really sad we'll probably never see 13th Agency, the modern version of 13th Age by Cam Banks and Dave Chalker. [1] I'll actually defend the setting, I think it's great at what it's meant to do, and people wishing it were less generic are missing the point. CitizenKeen fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 00:42
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"gatekeeping" used as a pejorative is just an attempt to turn anti-intellectualism and geek social fallacies #1 into a virtue. you don't need the word to describe or condemn bigotry; its only real rhetorical use is to try and cast any ostracism or criticism of taste as being just as bad as sexism / racism / etc. e: which is to say: there's no moral dimension to having bad taste; aesthetics alone never hurt anyone. but there's no moral dimension to social insularity over taste, either. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 00:51
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You post on Something Awful which means you have presumably met a Dark Souls fan before. Are you sure gatekeeping isn't real?
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Aug 17, 2022 02:22
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Terrible Opinions posted:You post on Something Awful which means you have presumably met a Dark Souls fan before. If not, I'm sure I have a mirror around here somewhere.
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Aug 17, 2022 02:27
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Gatekeeping is real, it has just been overused to describe petty bullshit instead
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Aug 17, 2022 02:40
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I'm not saying gatekeeping isn't real. I'm saying that if I thought it were a bad thing, I wouldn't still be posting on a forum that costs $10 to get in. 
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Aug 17, 2022 02:54
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Splicer posted:The other root problem is that most combat systems are terrified of long term consequences. Your two options are "Character dies/TPK" or "You win with no mechanical downsides that won't go away with a nice nap". WFRP3E was very good because the separate health/sanity/corruption/stress tickers meant you were always on the verge of suffering some form of consequence, and it was odd to get into a fight where you didn't come out with at least one new long-term injury, madness, or mutation per character. So a fight going really well means you only come out of it with a couple of new injuries that will probably go away overnight, while a fight going bad means multiple new broken, phantom, or tentaclised limbs to deal with. Doesn't this lead to your character being increasingly crippled as the campaign goes on?
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Aug 17, 2022 03:20
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I let the gatekeeping thing go because Leperflesh asked us to. Y’all should do the same.
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Aug 17, 2022 03:26
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CitizenKeen posted:The gold standard has to be Dark Alleys and Twisted Paths and Dark Pacts and Ancient Secrets by Martin Killman. They're such common recommendations for the 13th Age community that they have a dedicated channel in the 13th Age Discord. They're mostly great: Killman rebuilds and expands the classes a lot to make up for a lot of gaps in the core book. Ranged rogues, for example. And Killman rebuilt the Druid from the ground up to map to the framework of the Demonologist, and the Druid is better for it. One small hiccup - Killman's attempt at a more mechanically-satisfying Barbarian, called the Savage, was a little regressive in some phrasing, but it's my understanding he's apologized for that. I want the 17th Age sci-fi hack
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Aug 17, 2022 04:28
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is that good posted:Discussions around gatekeeping as it relates to hobbies feels faintly ridiculous to me. In the academic and minority identity space it's about whether or not you have access to career progression or community support, respectively. THANK YOU, I thought I was losing my mind!
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Aug 17, 2022 05:32
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homullus posted:I don't think I've seen a PbtA game in the vein of Dungeon World that I thought made good use of , uh, tA. PbtA may be a bad fit for D&Disms, but FitD it's actually a weirdly good fit in some ways. Free Kriegspiel leans about as hard into the 'Old' in OSR as it's possible to do, but is structurally really close to FitD in how it builds everything around fiction-driven framing techniques. Horseshoe theory is real, but only for OSR/Storygame mechanics
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Aug 17, 2022 05:39
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If not, I'm sure I have a mirror around here somewhere. Turn off your monitor.
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Aug 17, 2022 08:45
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BearsBearsBears posted:Doesn't this lead to your character being increasingly crippled as the campaign goes on? Basically the whole system is designed around the idea of getting various degrees of injured/traumatised/mutated by magic uranium over the course of the campaign. For another system you might need to go different route but the base idea is that the player expects the built in mechanical effects of an encounter to at least stick around for a few days, whatever those results are.
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Aug 17, 2022 09:50
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Honestly the weakness of PBTA is if you're not in for the very particular fiction that the game is trying to be, it doesn't really have anything for anyone else. They are all super bespoke to what they can do.
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Aug 17, 2022 12:43
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I'd argue that's a strength, not a weakness, honestly. But I imagine its a matter of perspective.
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Aug 17, 2022 13:00
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is that good posted:Discussions around gatekeeping as it relates to hobbies feels faintly ridiculous to me. In the academic and minority identity space it's about whether or not you have access to career progression or community support, respectively. If you're constantly being told that you're playing RPG's wrong, or constantly challenged to show your bonafides to prove that you belong, eventually it starts to feel easier to just leave rather than put up with the constant bullshit. And if someone sees you buying the "wrong" edition and takes it upon themselves to snobbily correct you, the end result is usually that you will buy no edition. It's gatekeeping because it's keeping people out of the hobby for 'doing it wrong' or being insufficiently nerdy. and when Women are involved it also turns into the whole "Oh you're just a fake gamer girl"(Girl proves that they are not, in fact, fake)"Are you single I need to gently caress you now." loop.
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Aug 17, 2022 13:21
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It's also worth noting that RPGs are not entirely a hobby space. There is an industry behind it, and you'll never guess what colour gender and age range is overwhelming represented in the biggest fish in the pond. So even by that definition of gatekeeping it is definitely still an issue, and the two feed into each other.
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Aug 17, 2022 13:54
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homullus posted:I don't think I've seen a PbtA game in the vein of Dungeon World that I thought made good use of , uh, tA. Too many stats, rolling for damage, bad Defy Dangers, and the like, making an engine better suited to relationships, power, and drama into the same-ish thing you get when you try to run everything through D&D. Not necessarily bad, but a misapplication for sure. Is The Sword, The Crown, and The Unspeakable Power "in the vein of Dungeon World"? It's a fantasy setting, but it's not trying at all to be a dungeon crawler, it's about the power machinations of a whole-rear end society. Apocalypse World splits it up among the big players: you've got people who are good at dealing with short-term crises, and you've got people who are good at dealing with long-term problems and providing long-term direction. They're not just all going to close down their hardhold and traipse across the desert to scavenge an old burn pit. Dungeon World deals exclusively with a bunch of different flavors of the guys who go scavenge the burn pit.
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Aug 17, 2022 14:07
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The issue I had with Monster of the Week is that unlike AW, it doesn't really drive home any particular atmosphere, tone, or even genre, beyond "monster hunting." I think almost every MOTW game I saw online went with the conceit of a professional monster hunting agency, to make it easy to get PCs into the game. It was designed at a time when everyone snorted Apocalypse World, got high as gently caress, and made games that aped its mechanics and prose style in ways that made no sense for what they were trying to do with it, and by those standards it's pretty good. homullus posted:I don't think I've seen a PbtA game in the vein of Dungeon World that I thought made good use of , uh, tA. Too many stats, rolling for damage, bad Defy Dangers, and the like, making an engine better suited to relationships, power, and drama into the same-ish thing you get when you try to run everything through D&D. Not necessarily bad, but a misapplication for sure.
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Aug 17, 2022 15:22
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High fantasy Game of Thrones PbtA would be a delight, though. You're all Lords of Waterdeep. Some of you are badass fighters who go on dungeon missions, some of you are just a beholder hiding below ground who never goes anywhere.
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Aug 17, 2022 16:07
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CitizenKeen posted:High fantasy Game of Thrones PbtA would be a delight, though. You're all Lords of Waterdeep. Some of you are badass fighters who go on dungeon missions, some of you are just a beholder hiding below ground who never goes anywhere. A game based around political machinations, back staving and the like would be good. Sheets are based on your holding or position so there's be ones like "Heir Apparent," "Merchant Prince," "Foreign Emissary," "Leader of the Faithful, " or "Military Commander"
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Aug 17, 2022 17:21
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Gatekeeping is when people who should have access are being discouraged or prevented from joining in. Nazis should not have access to TG, so it's not "gatekeeping" in the intended sense of that word if we make nazis uncomfortable in our space. We want D&D players to feel comfortable in our space, so it's "gatekeeping" if we needlessly make them uncomfortable. No, it's not as vital a consideration as ensuring we're not "gatekeeping" against people of color or women; but I feel it's still a valid concern, whatever word you want to use for it. As I said before, we need to be able to criticize games like D&D. So by default merely saying negative things about the game has to be allowed. I'm asking everyone to participate in ensuring that we can simultaneously critique important popular games like D&D in an honest way, and also ensure that D&D players are not so put off by constant negativity that they can't comfortably participate in TG talk here. I believe that middle ground exists and I believe almost everyone here is already basically operating in that place, but we can be more conscious and aware of what we're trying to do here and intentionally moderate our talk to help keep it there. Arivia posted:I let the gatekeeping thing go because Leperflesh asked us to. Y’all should do the same. Thanks. I'd like this post to be the final word on the subject. I don't think further semantic arguments about the term "gatekeeping" is valuable here.
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Aug 17, 2022 17:24
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I think a large part of what makes TG work without draconian and weirdly eggheaded moderation is that most of us have a sense of humour and modesty about the stuff we like. For example, people in the WoD thread are well aware of all the dumb stuff White Wolf did and put in their books over the years, and anyone defending WoD: Gypsies or Neo-Nazi Sample PCs in Vampire supplements is gonna get run out, quickly. By the same token, people aren't "calling out" each other with inflammatory screeds because there's no need for that. Setting cultural and political issues aside, we can also have e.g. a thread where people talk about their love for Palladium games, even though the company and its founder have a pretty bad reputation and anyone sincerely arguing for the Megaversal system is going to get laughed at.
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Aug 17, 2022 17:33
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Xelkelvos posted:A game based around political machinations, back staving and the like would be good. Sheets are based on your holding or position so there's be ones like "Heir Apparent," "Merchant Prince," "Foreign Emissary," "Leader of the Faithful, " or "Military Commander" If you want everybody to be a faction and a person, there are the fantasy adaptations of Legacy: Life Among the Ruins like Shattered City and Free From the Yoke.
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Aug 17, 2022 17:39
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CitizenKeen posted:If you want everybody to be a faction and a person, there are the fantasy adaptations of Legacy: Life Among the Ruins like Shattered City and Free From the Yoke. The latter one seems about where I was thinking at a glance
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Aug 17, 2022 17:54
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Free From The Yoke is extremely good.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:00
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Xelkelvos posted:A game based around political machinations, back staving and the like would be good. Sheets are based on your holding or position so there's be ones like "Heir Apparent," "Merchant Prince," "Foreign Emissary," "Leader of the Faithful, " or "Military Commander" That is almost exactly this: Glazius posted:Is The Sword, The Crown, and The Unspeakable Power "in the vein of Dungeon World"? It's a fantasy setting, but it's not trying at all to be a dungeon crawler, it's about the power machinations of a whole-rear end society. You’re playing the protagonists of a fantasy power struggle, and there are factions which put demands on you. It’s fairly PvP-oriented. Worldbuilding is collaborative. If you want to also play the factions, Legacy is a better bet.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:26
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I saw hundreds of posts here and thought "wow, was there really that much to say about Jonathan Tweet?" and then I just read it all and saw that there was a really interesting discussion, and also this:Gort posted:Strike has a "cool the first time" rule... Countblanc posted:...in addition to its normal CR system and monster creation rules, there's a subtype of monsters called "Unfair Monsters" ... hyphz posted:In Strike! there's an incremental level of battle victory... D'awww, thanks everyone! Considering one of my biggest motivations for making Strike! was showing up that bastard Mike Mearls, it warms my heart every time someone shits on 5e using mechanics I wrote. 
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Aug 17, 2022 19:17
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Xelkelvos posted:A game based around political machinations, back staving and the like would be good. Sheets are based on your holding or position so there's be ones like "Heir Apparent," "Merchant Prince," "Foreign Emissary," "Leader of the Faithful, " or "Military Commander" Isn't this essentially Court of Blades?
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Aug 17, 2022 21:27
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