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n0tqu1tesane posted:I was having this happen when my AC kicked on a few years back. Called at 7PM on a Sunday, and a utility worker was there by 8PM. Turns out it was a crimp connection at the transformer that had worked itself loose over time. Voltage at my meter on one leg was fluctuating between 100-120v with no major loads switching on or off. Same. My neighbor and I share an underground feed that goes up our cul-de-sac and then runs up a pole to the above ground service everyone else has. A Christmas or two ago, you could watch the duty cycle of our immersion circulator show up in the incandescent Christmas lights on the exterior of our neighbor's house. PG&E was out real quick - found bad connections for our feed up at the transformer.
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Aug 18, 2022 01:08
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I called it in. Some guys came out and said they hooked some test equipment up and didn't see anything. The next step is a different team coming out with a voltage testing unit. The guys who came out today said the transformer was likely undersized- "10 homes on a 25" whatever that means. So that's probably it IMO. We'll see!
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Aug 18, 2022 02:34
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Vim Fuego posted:I called it in. Some guys came out and said they hooked some test equipment up and didn't see anything. The next step is a different team coming out with a voltage testing unit. The guys who came out today said the transformer was likely undersized- "10 homes on a 25" whatever that means. So that's probably it IMO. We'll see! Probably 25kva but I'm no pole dancer. For our purposes it's the same as kilowatts.
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Aug 18, 2022 03:09
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I spoke with the area utility rep and she told me that they are going to replace the transformer with a larger one. I'll check in with them in a month if nothing has happened by then.
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Aug 18, 2022 22:02
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We got a Bosch dishwasher installed a year ago and it has always had a faint distinct odor when it ran, like hot plastic. Over time we got used to it, until recently when the smell began to take on a more acrid/burning smell. This evening I shut off the breaker to the dishwasher, pulled it out from under the counter, opened up the wiring box, and found this: Now, I am not an electrician, but my layman's interpretation of this situation is that it is Bad and I should be glad I found it before it burned the house down. My plan is to:
Is this all reasonable? I'm pretty sure I can handle this despite not being an electrical genius. That being said, what exactly could have happened here to cause this? The photo is not exactly as things would have been before I opened it up, because I pushed the bottom cable into the box somewhat before I decided to open it up, so it's possible that neutral and ground could have been in contact before I started messing around with things.
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Aug 19, 2022 01:44
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It looks to me like the neutral wiring terminal was either faulty or not properly tightened. That connection seems to have overheated over time, eventually leading to what you see there. I'm basing it on the damage present on the white wire coming from your house. Your repair plan is correct. If I remember correctly from the last Bosch I did with that same box, the grey cord going into your dishwasher comes pre-installed into the box, you buy them as a unit.
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Aug 19, 2022 03:26
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It probably wasn't going to burn your house down because that's what those boxes are meant to stop. Also, the reason the power cord that comes with the dishwasher is a plug and not bare wires is to prevent exact this. I'm going to assume some temp labor for a shipping company that gets subcontracted by lowes/home depot/whatever installed this. They aren't sending electricians to your home to do this work, and all too often this is the result. So replace the box but install an outlet. Get the correct replacement cord for the dishwasher that ends in a plug. Then this will never be a problem again.
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Aug 19, 2022 12:50
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Motronic posted:It probably wasn't going to burn your house down because that's what those boxes are meant to stop. It really seems like a lot of appliances that were hardwired are switching more to plug. I know that I’ve seen kitchen dent hoods that are down from a ceiling come with a plug adapter you hide behind the facade used to cover the ducts.
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Aug 19, 2022 14:15
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KKKLIP ART posted:It really seems like a lot of appliances that were hardwired are switching more to plug. I know that I’ve seen kitchen dent hoods that are down from a ceiling come with a plug adapter you hide behind the facade used to cover the ducts. Yes, they all are. Garbage disposals, ice makers, under cabinet fridges - all of that stuff used to be hard wire. Used to be that a qualified technician who knew enough electrical to safely install this stuff used to do so, but the reality of the last 10+ years is someone who got hired from temp labor company was handed a screwdriver and maybe some wire nuts - but definitely a loving drill and zip ties - and is expected to both deliver AND install your stuff these days. The manufacturers are recognizing this. Motronic fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 23:30
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KKKLIP ART posted:It really seems like a lot of appliances that were hardwired are switching more to plug. I know that I’ve seen kitchen dent hoods that are down from a ceiling come with a plug adapter you hide behind the facade used to cover the ducts. the more readily accessible disconnects, the better! romex simply is not meant for repeated making and breaking. by putting in a receptacle for an appliance you sweat and swear ONCE instead of every single time it needs to move. one of the best new practices/codes since requiring neutrals in most every switch box
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Aug 19, 2022 23:59
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Extant Artiodactyl posted:the more readily accessible disconnects, the better! romex simply is not meant for repeated making and breaking. by putting in a receptacle for an appliance you sweat and swear ONCE instead of every single time it needs to move. one of the best new practices/codes since requiring neutrals in most every switch box It’s definitely not a complaint. I agree that’s is a really good repairability and safety issue.
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Aug 20, 2022 00:37
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Thinking about guy with crispy wires, can you megger Romex?
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Aug 20, 2022 01:27
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Thanks for all the advice. I had already ordered the replacement part from Bosch prior to any replies (cord plus junction box), so I'll just reinstall it as is, but if any reason should arise to redo it again, I will install a socket and order the power cord that ends in a regular plug. That being said, I never really understood why appliances were hardwired in the first place. Our garbage disposal is hardwired, the dishwasher is hardwired, but the refrigerator is not. Obviously plugs are easier so why bother with hardwiring things in the first place? If it's a concern about how much current something's going to draw, why not specify the requirement as 120V/20A instead of 120V/15A, or maybe 240V/10A? Also, this house was renovated in 2015 before we bought it. Were the relevant NEC changes you guys are referring to in force at that time, or did that come after? Did the renovators probably wire things in an older way and the inspector just passed it because they didn't know or care about newer regulations/recommendations?
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Aug 20, 2022 01:41
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Motronic posted:Yes, they all are. Garbage disposals, ice makers, under cabinet fridges - all of that stuff used to be hard wire. So piggybacking off this… I got a dishwasher installed a few months back and there was no outlet under the sink. The installer hired by Costco offered to install an outlet for $100 so I did it. He said they were not allowed to hardwire dishwashers anymore like the previous one had been. It’s not GFCI. Should it be?
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Aug 20, 2022 01:46
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Even if your local code somehow doesn't require it, it ought to be. Either at the outlet or at the breaker is fine.
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Aug 20, 2022 01:50
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Foxfire_ posted:Even if your local code somehow doesn't require it, it ought to be. Either at the outlet or at the breaker is fine. Where are you getting this from? It's an equipment outlet. It doesn't neem to be GFCI. You can do that if you want. As far as I know, and as far up on the code as I am I'm not aware of this as a requirement. I'm also not aware of any issues with it not being GFCI. If I'm missing something please let me know. (water bad! Must be GFCI! is not an answer here.)
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Aug 20, 2022 01:55
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Motronic posted:Where are you getting this from? It's an equipment outlet. It doesn't neem to be GFCI. So what’s the purpose of GFCI being required in bathrooms and kitchens then? I just figured it was because “water bad!”
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Aug 20, 2022 02:00
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nwin posted:So what’s the purpose of GFCI being required in bathrooms and kitchens then? I just figured it was because “water bad!” It's because it's an outlet that ANYTHING could get plugged into (as it's accessible). A MACHINE OUTLET which is dedicated for, in this case, a dishwasher, is for a device that is made to work not only around but full of water quite safely.
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Aug 20, 2022 02:03
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Motronic posted:It's because it's an outlet that ANYTHING could get plugged into (as it's accessible). A MACHINE OUTLET which is dedicated for, in this case, a dishwasher, is for a device that is made to work not only around but full of water quite safely. Gotcha-thanks. Gotta be pedantic here for a sec…it has two outlets. Is a GFCI not required in this case because of some “reasonable person” test saying one wouldn’t be expected to hook a hair dryer up to the extra outlet since it’s not readily accessible and obscured by a cabinet?
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Aug 20, 2022 02:07
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nwin posted:Gotcha-thanks. Nothing wrong with being pedantic in this context. I am not aware of specific code that says either way. When I was a code official I would care more about location and obvious intent/obvious PITA to use for anything else and that was good enough. My own machine outlets are singles and labeled for what they are for often along with breaker box/slot number because I'm a pervert.
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Aug 20, 2022 02:12
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Motronic posted:Where are you getting this from? It's an equipment outlet. It doesn't neem to be GFCI. NEC 2017 210.8(D) posted:Kitchen Dishwasher Branch Circuit. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.
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Aug 20, 2022 02:13
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we've been putting GFIs in all sorts of stupid places lately (southern california). dishwashers, garbage disposals, basically anywhere close enough to water. everyone agrees its stupid but the inspectors want to see it
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Aug 20, 2022 02:28
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Okay so 2017 NEC. Most places only adopt the i-codes, which use the NEC by specific reference. And a lot of sections like that are not actually referenced, making them not code. I'm not saying your jurisdiction doesn't somehow incorporate that, but mostly that if you're just googling stuff about code it probably doesn't mean what you think it means or apply where you think it applies. By all means, add every safety device you feel is necessary as long as it's actually making things safer. But that particular safety device is something I'd only concern myself with on a dishwasher that is so old it shouldn't even be running anymore. And was definitely only available as hard wired. In the end, if you are doing work that needs to be inspected even your best understanding of your locals codes is not good enough. Just ask your AHJ what they expect to see. Motronic fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 02:33
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I have a general question about GFCI: It's essentially a breaker at the outlet, right? So you have a breaker there, and a breaker back at your panel, so why have 2 breakers? I get that things near water could have water get in them or whatever and trip the GFCI, but being able to reset the breaker at the outlet seems more like a convenience than a safety item. Looking forward to learning, thanks.
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Aug 20, 2022 02:49
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VelociBacon posted:I have a general question about GFCI: It's essentially a breaker at the outlet, right? So you have a breaker there, and a breaker back at your panel, so why have 2 breakers? I get that things near water could have water get in them or whatever and trip the GFCI, but being able to reset the breaker at the outlet seems more like a convenience than a safety item. Looking forward to learning, thanks. the only thing they have in common is they turn off the power, they operate very differently breaker shuts the circuit off if the current goes too high, to prevent overheating and damage/fires GFCIs sense if theres any difference between the current on the line and neutral, because if those arent the same, the current is going somewhere else. possibly through a person a breaker won't save you from getting electrocuted, a GFCI will Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 02:55
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VelociBacon posted:I have a general question about GFCI: It's essentially a breaker at the outlet, right? So you have a breaker there, and a breaker back at your panel, so why have 2 breakers? I get that things near water could have water get in them or whatever and trip the GFCI, but being able to reset the breaker at the outlet seems more like a convenience than a safety item. Looking forward to learning, thanks. GFCIs trip when there is a 5 milliamp or greater variance between the hot and neutral legs. If there is a variance it means electricity found another path to ground, which is possibly through you, so the GFCI trips and saves you. A normal breaker only trips when more current is pulled from it than rated. So if you have a 15 amp breaker and somehow hook up a 20 amp commercial Belgian waffle maker, it's going to pull more than 15 amps and trip the breaker. If it didn't trip the breaker, the wiring on that circuit, which is also rated for 15 amps, would risk damage and fire from too much heat from the higher amperage load than it's rated for. Both types of protection are desirable, but GFCI is only required in some circuits, whereas over current protection is required in all circuits. Now we have combination breakers that have your normal over current protection and GFCI protection, so you don't have to have a GFCI specific outlet for GFCI protection. Additionally there is AFCI protection which is arc fault. Arcs are caused by loose connections and can also result in fires. Most GFCI breakers are also AFCI breakers too.
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Aug 20, 2022 02:58
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Thanks! Both posts super informative and it makes a lot of sense actually.
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Aug 20, 2022 03:14
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A (not fancy) dishwasher is a plastic tub full of water with a submerged pump and heating element. If there's a pump fault that stops it from draining and shorts to the water, I wouldn't necessarily expect that to connect to the chassis earth to trip the breaker and somebody might stick their hand in the water to get to the drain filter. I think that's likely enough that I'd spend the extra $20 for a GFCI breaker if it were me, even if code didn't make me do it. It's not that much of a hazard, but it's also a pretty trivial cost.
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Aug 20, 2022 03:41
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VelociBacon posted:Thanks! Both posts super informative and it makes a lot of sense actually. I love this table from the NIH. It really spells out how completely wrecked you can get. If you're standing barefoot in water and touch a live conductor with your hand, your body's resistance of about ~300Ω means you get ~400mA flowing down your hand, through your chest (and heart) and out your foot. The circuit breaker in your panel, rated for 15 or 20A thinks there is literally nothing untoward; you're drawing about as much current as the light bulb in your fridge would. However, you're getting pretty seriously cooked at the point of contact and it's very likely that your heart will go into fibrillation if you don't manage to get off the current within a couple of seconds. A GFCI would notice a current imbalance between hot and neutral of over 5mA within 1 cycle (1/60sec) and cut the power off. The circuit breaker would happily let you cook until dry. The article is my go-to for "how bad can it possibly be?" for electrical injury.
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Aug 20, 2022 03:51
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:I love this table from the NIH. It really spells out how completely wrecked you can get. Assuming the GFCI properly tripped, would you even feel a shock in that scenario?
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Aug 20, 2022 06:06
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There's also a ton of luck involved to where you can get nasty zaps a million times and never die which is bad for encouraging people to take things seriously
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Aug 20, 2022 13:57
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Foxfire_ posted:A (not fancy) dishwasher is a plastic tub full of water with a submerged pump and heating element. If there's a pump fault that stops it from draining and shorts to the water, I wouldn't necessarily expect that to connect to the chassis earth to trip the breaker and somebody might stick their hand in the water to get to the drain filter. I think that's likely enough that I'd spend the extra $20 for a GFCI breaker if it were me, even if code didn't make me do it. It's not that much of a hazard, but it's also a pretty trivial cost. It's not about cost: it's about reliability. There are many things over the years that started to get rolled out as a hammer in code. (as in "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail") This has been shown to be actively harmful in the field, even though the thing "works" in a lab. GFCI outlets, especially in damp areas, age and they start tripping. Now instead of the permitted electrician who built the place to code you very likely have Joe Homeowner ripping and replacing and doing a job very much like what started this whole conversation. It's a backwards, myopic, stupid trend in these codes that needs to get rolled back. They do. not. work. in. the. field. Anyone like me who spent years doing cause and origin investigations knows this. I'm also not aware of the particular failure mode you're talking about being a thing that has ever happened. Ever. In the history of UL listed dishwashers. So it's pretty close to getting asteroid insurance, except you're more likely to get hit by the asteroid.
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Aug 20, 2022 15:56
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So you think that the people who wrote the last couple versions of the NEC are idiots who just threw that explicit rule in there for no real reason?
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Aug 20, 2022 16:08
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Foxfire_ posted:So you think that the people who wrote the last couple versions of the NEC are idiots who just threw that explicit rule in there for no real reason? I know for a fact this type of thing happens over and over again in code and is constantly argued over at every level of the bodies who write the code. GFCI outlets are poo poo for this purpose. If they want to regulate this into existence as a thing it should be done as breakers, as a dedicated circuit is already required for a dishwasher in most jurisdictions. I do not recall if this is an IEC thing or incorporated by reference from the NEC. Also, are you under the impression that you are speaking to someone who is building a home from scratch, or is this conversation about an exiting home built long before any of this was applicable where someone is doing repair work? If the latter, do you think that's relevant to recommendations and outcomes?
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Aug 20, 2022 16:13
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This is a really wierd slap fight over someone suggesting, but not requiring, adding gfci to water+electricity. As is said here a ton "code is written in blood" and we don't build things backwards because Joe chucklefuck might gently caress it up later. Code is moving to cfci for everything anyways. Also cfci breakers are more like $75 extra but that's neither here nor there.
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Aug 20, 2022 16:20
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Motronic are you saying that the GFCI breakers are more reliable? That is to say, reliable enough to mandate
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Aug 20, 2022 16:28
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I have replaced enough worn out GFCI outlets over the years to know that I don't want one in any equipment, especially one inside a cabinet. Didn't we have someone here wanting to put one on their furnace, inviting the most costly nuisance trip of all time?
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Aug 20, 2022 16:44
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There is an argument to be made that a lot of the more recent GFCI requirements in code are because the manufacturers of GFCI/AFCI breakers help write the code, and they'd rather people buy $60 breakers vs $15 breakers.
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Aug 20, 2022 17:07
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BonerGhost posted:Assuming the GFCI properly tripped, would you even feel a shock in that scenario? Nope. I have tested this myself.
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Aug 20, 2022 17:13
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slurm posted:Motronic are you saying that the GFCI breakers are more reliable? That is to say, reliable enough to mandate Yes. In my experience they are long term reliable when used on non-garbage equipment (nothing is going to stop your 1960 washer/fridge from nuisance tripping - that's an equipment issue). I still wouldn't install one in front of something that will cause a lot of damage if it trips (think chest freezers, sump pumps, heaters that are keeping pipes from freezing) SpartanIvy posted:There is an argument to be made that a lot of the more recent GFCI requirements in code are because the manufacturers of GFCI/AFCI breakers help write the code, and they'd rather people buy $60 breakers vs $15 breakers. There's an argument to a lot of code happening this way when it involves devices. I've sat on some of these committees for the ICC back in the day and there's always manufacture representatives as well. That's a good thing, because you want their perspective but the whole thing sometimes feels very much like manufacturing demand, especially when one looks at the statistics. Yet a lot of people are on board. In this very thread we have a poster who is trying to squeeze blood out of a dishwasher to write code with. You'd be better off getting an insurance policy against an asteroid strike. Over-coding things is exactly how you end up with the mess that is "spill-proof" fuel cans (which are demonstrably less safe in the field when handed to people who aren't part of a scientific study - larger because they pretty immediately realize they are poo poo and do whatever they can think of to modify them), pool alarms that false trip so frequently that they are installed for the inspector to close out the permit and then pretty immediately disabled, etc. Yes, these all seemed like good things in a vacuum/in the lab but the don't survive contact with the real world of obstinate, cheap, innumerate and largely dim witted people.
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Aug 20, 2022 18:18
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