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But macros are so much fun! I've been able to turn WoW Classic's ancient-rear end hotbar combat into something that feels a bit more active by moving basically all of my skills into stance/form based macros with modifier keys so that I can do almost all my controls instinctually with only the button son my mouse and a few of the buttons on the keyboard immediately surrounding WASD. The level of control macros offer (in games that allow good scripting, of which WoW barely qualifies) is fantastic. It annoys me when MMOs don't allow macros!
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Aug 17, 2022 15:30
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kedo posted:But macros are so much fun! I've been able to turn WoW Classic's ancient-rear end hotbar combat into something that feels a bit more active by moving basically all of my skills into stance/form based macros with modifier keys so that I can do almost all my controls instinctually with only the button son my mouse and a few of the buttons on the keyboard immediately surrounding WASD. WoW has had to remove many many macro commands over the years from abuse. Early in my wow career I had a single button that was so smart it would change my stance, select the correct highest DPS button, and mash all my abilities more or less non stop forever. Decursive was both more or less needed, and totally killed by Blizzard as well, Game casts a raid wide DOT, everyone dies in 1 min, removing said dot takes 3 secs per person and you had stupidly large raids at the time, sometimes you have just enough time if no one mis-casts remove curse. Raid designers wanted this to be an engaging mechanic.
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Aug 17, 2022 16:10
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PyRosflam posted:WoW has had to remove many many macro commands over the years from abuse. Early in my wow career I had a single button that was so smart it would change my stance, select the correct highest DPS button, and mash all my abilities more or less non stop forever. Add-ons have always been a hot topic. Some things like Decursive that just made the UI clearer were generally considered fine, but the prevalence of things like DeadlyBossMods that just walked you through encounters always felt really poo poo to me, especially since they were basically treated as mandatory.
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Aug 17, 2022 16:18
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Pandaal posted:Yeah you can "target of target" in FFXIV with a macro. a shame they didn't go the way of eq2 or vanguard with an offensive and defensive target or eq2s auto cast through defensive target
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Aug 17, 2022 16:22
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CuddleCryptid posted:Add-ons have always been a hot topic. Some things like Decursive that just made the UI clearer were generally considered fine, but the prevalence of things like DeadlyBossMods that just walked you through encounters always felt really poo poo to me, especially since they were basically treated as mandatory. I'm always on the fence about mods like DBM. On one hand they trivialize the thinking part of most content as you can just do what the bit text on your screen says and generally survive, but on the other hand trusting 40 people in varying states of inebriation to get every single mechanic of a fight just right so that they don't blow up the raid is a recipe for disappointment. WeakAuras has got to be my favorite addon these days because it basically allows you to rewrite almost the entire UI from scratch.
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Aug 17, 2022 16:33
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DBM becomes an even bigger requirement when every raid encounter has 3 phases and 6 abilities per phase. Raiding at that point is just exhausting, and the main reason I just can't get into it anymore.
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Aug 17, 2022 16:43
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Cardboard Fox posted:DBM becomes an even bigger requirement when every raid encounter has 3 phases and 6 abilities per phase. Raiding at that point is just exhausting, and the main reason I just can't get into it anymore. Retail WoW has 10 years of survivorship bias behind the the people still raiding.
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Aug 17, 2022 16:59
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I'm curious – for those of you in this thread who are still raiding in a modern MMO, what's the time commitment look like for you each week? I haven't raided since vanilla WoW (and then again in Classic because I was foolish), so my sample size is very low.
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Aug 17, 2022 17:02
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kedo posted:I'm curious – for those of you in this thread who are still raiding in a modern MMO, what's the time commitment look like for you each week? I haven't raided since vanilla WoW (and then again in Classic because I was foolish), so my sample size is very low. In WoW, if you've kept up on your character at all, there's not much weekly maintenance to be done really; you can definitely just raid log at this point, and then it's mostly how much time you dedicate for actual raiding, so maybe 4-6 hours a week for me? We do 2-3 hour stints on Friday and Saturday evenings in my guild (and Saturday can be considerably shorter if we clear most of the bosses on Friday) If you have a fresh level 60 character there's a bit more of a grind, it's not horrible, but there's still a lot to digest in Shadowlands and I find my eyes gloss over a lot with fresh 60s I guess that's not really a "modern" MMO anymore though Macichne Leainig fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 17:13
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kedo posted:I'm curious – for those of you in this thread who are still raiding in a modern MMO, what's the time commitment look like for you each week? I haven't raided since vanilla WoW (and then again in Classic because I was foolish), so my sample size is very low. that's something that's always negotiated between you and your static and varies massively ime. groups that don't care about doing it fast and getting the high ilvl gear for everyone can take as little as one couple hour session a week, sometimes even less. especially when they've learned the given fights and have them on farm mode.
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Aug 17, 2022 17:15
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Khorne posted:I might be missing the joke, but you can do this in most tab target mmos i know i had macros to heal the mobs target back in wow but i haven't found a way to just click on the tank and broil spam his target without having to swap between the mob and the tank in ffxiv
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Aug 17, 2022 17:16
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CuddleCryptid posted:Add-ons have always been a hot topic. Some things like Decursive that just made the UI clearer were generally considered fine, but the prevalence of things like DeadlyBossMods that just walked you through encounters always felt really poo poo to me, especially since they were basically treated as mandatory. "You may have to heal manually" is an ongoing joke in my FC 15 years and multiple games later, based on a totally serious warning given before a raid just after an update. It was an "elite" raiding guild that some of us had been allowed to come along and spot-fill, and until then we didn't know that their "skill" were all mods or degenerate strategies and the only thing they had that we didn't was people. I mean, I'm all for degenerate strategies when it works (and doesn't take more effort than doing the actual intended strat), but when you think people are always noticing Living Bomb and getting clear and the answer is "no, we just stand in a line so they don't kill too many people when they blow up" it's a let-down.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:28
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kedo posted:I'm curious – for those of you in this thread who are still raiding in a modern MMO, what's the time commitment look like for you each week? I haven't raided since vanilla WoW (and then again in Classic because I was foolish), so my sample size is very low. I do 90mins a week in FF14 for a group of 30-40 year olds who have found that time in the middle of real life and kids and all that higher priority stuff. We technically also do Sunday afternoons for folks who can make it but that's flaky as heck and rarely has an actual raid (working as intended, we expected that). The main issue we run into is how Savage is gated. Each week you need to do all four in order, so with our time limits we could clear P1S and P2S and then wouldn't have time to start practicing P3S. That started when those gates got removed... 6 weeks ago? Everything blurs together. Anyway, we're not blasting through anything but we have fun, and next tier we're already talking about how to adjust when we hit similar limits, probably get someone earlier in the week to "steal" a lockout from other folks, the annoying thing will just be when to pivot. And that's more a communication issue rather than different goals, people's availability to even think about FF14 during the rest of the week varies and it's not something you can push for 5 minutes before things start.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:37
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Bruceski posted:"You may have to heal manually" is an ongoing joke in my FC 15 years and multiple games later, based on a totally serious warning given before a raid just after an update. It was an "elite" raiding guild that some of us had been allowed to come along and spot-fill, and until then we didn't know that their "skill" were all mods or degenerate strategies and the only thing they had that we didn't was people. I'm going to use "you may have to heal manually" next time a healer let's tank me drop because they were too busy picking flowers to notice that the battle was going on.
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Aug 17, 2022 18:38
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Pandaal posted:This is how Albion currently works as a "single world server". It works like this, let's take a look at this section of the world map: I really wanted to like Albion. It seems like they did a ton of stuff right with the economic interactions tying into risky gameplay and reinforcing a player backed economy. Things like the black market are also SUPER interesting: https://wiki.albiononline.com/wiki/Black_Market quote:The Black Market, located in Caerleon, is an essential component of the Albion Online economy. The market is where the world’s mobs get their loot from. As the need for dropped items increase or decreases, so does the price the Black Market merchant buys them for. I played it for a couple months and I was forcing it for probably half that because I wanted to enjoy it, but the inner loop of the game just didn't feel that exciting to me and I can't find the words to explain why.
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Aug 18, 2022 03:15
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Fractured Online is set to release in early access in a month. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjokS1aqKd0 What's the MMO CHAT consensus on it? Looks a bit drab, but these days sandbox, isometric and action combat piques my interest.
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Aug 18, 2022 08:36
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kedo posted:I'm curious – for those of you in this thread who are still raiding in a modern MMO, what's the time commitment look like for you each week? I haven't raided since vanilla WoW (and then again in Classic because I was foolish), so my sample size is very low. i do savage raiding in ff14, and it's 4 hours a week, at 2 nights per week for 2 hours of raiding that's it. i don't have to do anything else in the game if i don't want to, and we usually clear the last boss 8 times (so all 8 members get the loot) in 3-4 months after patch day, but we're a pretty chill/casual group and people have to take days/weeks off so it probably takes us longer than most
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Aug 18, 2022 09:24
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CuddleCryptid posted:Sea of Thieves with a single shard and a player led economy seems like the closest style of game you could get to EVE without setting it in space, but the server load for that would be horrendous. I think we will probably only see the next big mmo if we get another big leap in technology (both in terms of networking and content production) like we had in the late 90s/early 2000s.
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Aug 18, 2022 09:35
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Lifroc posted:What's the MMO CHAT consensus on it? Looks a bit drab, but these days sandbox, isometric and action combat piques my interest. Which part of that trailer makes you think "action combat"?
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Aug 18, 2022 10:37
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Chillgamesh posted:To be fair I think this is because FFXIV players don't have a set of preexisting expectations for PvP like WoW players do. By that I mean, FFXIV doesn't have people clamoring for pre-Stormblood PvP where you had all the PvE moves and stats instead of a discrete and truncated set of skills/stats that only exist in PvP. By contrast, in WoW I think a lot of the playerbase would be upset if PvP classes were heavily streamlined. I mean, they could always do something like they did with the level locking/PvP xp change back in the day and introduce a new PvP system (normalised stats, no effect of gear, streamlined PvP-only abilities, and so on) in parallel with the existing system i.e. players can choose new rules or old when queuing for BGs/Arenas/etc. and then just have two systems for a while. Would be interesting to see which would end up more popular with average players.
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Aug 18, 2022 11:58
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Bognar posted:I really wanted to like Albion. It seems like they did a ton of stuff right with the economic interactions tying into risky gameplay and reinforcing a player backed economy. Things like the black market are also SUPER interesting: Yeah the black market mechanic is cool as hell. Since just about everything in the game is player-crafted you can inspect items that were dropped by mobs and they'll still have the original player's maker's mark on them. Fun little detail. As for bouncing off the game, that happens for sure. I play it on and off in spurts (just because that's how I play MMOs in general) but that usually coincides with when my friends are playing it. Having a regular group to log on with and start the session with "...ok, what do we want to get into tonight" is the best way to experience it. The fact that you can get to the gear that you need to do 99% of the game's content takes like 5 hours makes it easy to get folks to give it a shot, but you have to get them to that content quickly after that.
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Aug 18, 2022 13:09
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Sea of Thieves with more population and deep gameplay would be sick as hell.
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Aug 18, 2022 14:15
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kinda wanna try sea of thieves, but every time it's on sale i'm deep into something else lmao
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Aug 18, 2022 14:18
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Pigbottom posted:I think we will probably only see the next big mmo if we get another big leap in technology (both in terms of networking and content production) like we had in the late 90s/early 2000s. We had plenty of technological leaps since the early 2000s but we're still running on early 1990 tech (multi server model) MMOs are data and latency intensive but AFAIK they're not ground breaking in their networking topology. One thing is for sure, the speed of light ain't gonna be broken any time soon. Latency will ALWAYS be a problem. Eve has the most advanced shard setup, but you can't create a fast paced MMO in a single shard. You can get almost there by making the client authoritative but that opens it up to any kind of hack. A worldwide MMO needs to deal with people that are 250ms from each other and they need to send information between each other. And that's a hard limit.
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Aug 18, 2022 14:38
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Truga posted:kinda wanna try sea of thieves, but every time it's on sale i'm deep into something else lmao The sailing mechanics rock but there isn't enough game there to keep my friends playing.
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Aug 18, 2022 14:44
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It's a fun game in bursts, the Tall Tales and stuff are fun but I don't know how people can just play it daily for months on end. My only real issue with the game currently is a lot of point of interests (mermaid temples, etc) are kind of badly designed. I don't view it as very good risk/reward that while you're down in the temple someone can easily drive up and sink your ship with zero resistance or way to prevent this, except for leaving one of your friends behind in the ship doing nothing while everyone else has fun. At least when you're on an island doing stuff you can kind of hide your boat or see other ships on the horizon and prepare. The on foot combat is also terrible lol.
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Aug 18, 2022 14:49
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Truga posted:kinda wanna try sea of thieves, but every time it's on sale i'm deep into something else lmao It's on PC Xbox game pass, can hit them up for a trial of that if you want. I like the game but I just don't have time to dedicate to it. You really get the big bonuses if you can do like six hours of continuous gameplay, but it's still valid to go out, do one quest, and come back. All you can really buy are cosmetics so 
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Aug 18, 2022 14:50
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Oh and ship respawning is also kind of wack. It's really lame to win a ship battle by the skin of your teeth and have RNG bless them to spawn at an island right next to you so they're now already engaging you with full supplies and nothing to lose, before you can even gather your spoils from their wreckage. And then other times you spawn on the entire other side of the map and have zero chance of getting your stuff back. It's silly. I think it should always spawn you a set distance away so you can realistically find your attacker again but also give the winner some time to breathe.
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Aug 18, 2022 14:54
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i played it briefly but never found out, can you do a proper mutiny in sea of thieves? mutinies are like the quintessential pirate drama
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Aug 18, 2022 14:55
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:i played it briefly but never found out, can you do a proper mutiny in sea of thieves? mutinies are like the quintessential pirate drama There isn't really a "captain" so you can't "overthrow" anyone. You could grab on to the steering wheel and say "nah we are going THIS way" but that's about it. You can just kick people from your group but that's lame.
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Aug 18, 2022 16:02
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Ibram Gaunt posted:It's a fun game in bursts, the Tall Tales and stuff are fun but I don't know how people can just play it daily for months on end. I would still play the poo poo out of that game if it had a pve mode. With forced pvp I just don't have the energy to play something I need to be always alert when I come home tired and want to chill.
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Aug 18, 2022 16:58
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:i played it briefly but never found out, can you do a proper mutiny in sea of thieves? mutinies are like the quintessential pirate drama you can vote to throw people in the brig, they get to sit in a jail cell in the basement and you can throw up on them
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Aug 18, 2022 17:00
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Ibram Gaunt posted:The on foot combat is also terrible lol. This is my big problem with the game. Sailing ships is awesome, but the second you get off a ship everything feels ultra janky and overly simplified. I bounce hard every time I play for exactly this reason. I don't have a group of friends who play it so I'm missing the entire social component which really throws all of the problems with the game in to stark relief.
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Aug 18, 2022 17:05
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Pigbottom posted:I would still play the poo poo out of that game if it had a pve mode. With forced pvp I just don't have the energy to play something I need to be always alert when I come home tired and want to chill. Sea of Thieves without PvP would be like EVE without PVP, just endlessly ratting islands until you get bored and drown yourself.
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Aug 18, 2022 17:06
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kedo posted:This is my big problem with the game. Sailing ships is awesome, but the second you get off a ship everything feels ultra janky and overly simplified. I bounce hard every time I play for exactly this reason. I don't have a group of friends who play it so I'm missing the entire social component which really throws all of the problems with the game in to stark relief. Man this reminded me hard about Pirates of the Burning Sea, which had really intricate ship combat and a tacked-on player to player combat system added before launch. The faction vs faction world pvp where you’d control cities in the Caribbean was amazing but there was so much jank around it all.
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Aug 18, 2022 17:12
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Ooooohh yes. I played that game at launch (and for several months afterwards) with goons and it was great so long as the only thing you did off-ship was craft. Every single time I got a mission that asked me to run into a cave and kill X dudes I would abandon it and move on with my life. e: We had a heck of a lot of fun with that game with goonswarm tactics – I remember cruising the seas with ~5-6 goons in tiny, fast boats, and we'd gank enemy players in super-powerful SOL ships who could do literally nothing to us because we'd all just sail around in their deadzone pummeling them with grapeshot and chainshot until they were dead in the water. kedo fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Aug 18, 2022 |
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Aug 18, 2022 17:24
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Lifroc posted:We had plenty of technological leaps since the early 2000s but we're still running on early 1990 tech (multi server model) EQ solved this by using almost 6 second "ticks" I can play EQ on an airplane using satellite internet (on a toaster). If you had to have your game truly global, you would use the Netflix model of putting your servers at the ISP level pushing your network edge as close to the player as you can. Not really realistic unless your at Netflix scale. Next best solution is to have servers follow Amazons Regions. If you can keep your edge to centralized data center under some level of ping, add in the authoritative network layer on the edge (not the client) you could spread the load in such a way that for example fast stuff auths with 30ms pings and items on the slower route (has to go to the main hub). But realistically nothing beats a centralized single server that all players are close to.
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Aug 18, 2022 17:50
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PyRosflam posted:EQ solved this by using almost 6 second "ticks" I can play EQ on an airplane using satellite internet (on a toaster). None of that makes data go faster than light anyway, centralised servers or not. If you're on the other side of the world, the fact that I've clicked on your toon needs to reach you. So yeah, either 6 second ticks or, like I suggested before, each in-game region is in a different continent, so you have regions where you have good ping and regions where you have crap ping. To be fair we haven't reached the physical limits. I get about 90ms RTT to NYC from London, the theoretical limit with fibre laid in a perfectly straight line and every network device along the path using 0 processing time is about 56ms. Lifroc fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Aug 18, 2022 |
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Aug 18, 2022 19:26
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CuddleCryptid posted:Sea of Thieves without PvP would be like EVE without PVP, just endlessly ratting islands until you get bored and drown yourself. I can't imagine the draw of Sea of Thieves without PvP. Even going solo I liked having to park my ship in a good spot and keeping an eye on it.
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Aug 18, 2022 20:11
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I'm sure latency correction isn't completely foreign to MMOs. There could be complications with game complexity and implementing state rewind for inputs and whatnot but imma tell you it's way more about laziness than it not being possible. Lacking any client side forward-sim is also just laziness but can and does look jank at low tick rates without a lot of blending.
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