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2nd Amendment posted:Nah. People are treating her like a victim when she's way closer to Lady MacBeth. There are reasons for that. Attractive women are given the benefit of the doubt and tend to be viewed as victims. To put it another way: This is astonishingly awful for reasons already stated of course but thanks for linking my Good joke post and if you, the person reading, clicks on my quoted post there is a very, very funny reply to it that made me laugh then and made me laugh again now (one of the reasons I said this at the time was her going off on Howard last season that led to it all for claiming she is being 'controlled' by jimmy and can't make her own (bad) decisions)
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Aug 21, 2022 16:43
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clown shoes posted:I kinda drifted away from this show but man I gotta go back and do a full series rewatch. This is a great ending. Cranston quite understandably is best known for Walt nowadays, but his Hal was an incredible creation too. The first episode of MitM I can remember seeing, the house was being fumigated and I think they were living in an RV(!) for the duration with the other kids while Malcolm stayed with friends. Hal and Lois started having really angry arguments and Hal couldn't understand why they were suddenly having problems, then Malcolm came back and was hanging around and suddenly inspiration struck for Hal. I assumed this was like any other sitcom, and Hal's realization was that they needed their beloved middle son back so they could be a complete family again, or some other saccharine bullshit. Instead, Hal tells Lois that Malcolm being back made him realize the reason they're snapping at each other is that they're stuck in an RV with the kids underfoot and haven't been able to bang, so they put on gas masks and go inside the fumigated house to gently caress the night away, holding hands as they go  What I'm saying is that Malcolm in the Middle ruled, basically.
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Aug 21, 2022 16:45
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massive spider posted:She's not really a lady Macbeth beyond the very broad concept of, female character conspiring with a male to do bad things. She absolutely pushes Saul beyond where he would go with both Ken and Hamlin. She is also consumed by guilt. That's basically Lady Macbeth character arc.
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Aug 21, 2022 16:49
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I think it was accurate when she said in season 6 that they encourage each other to go further.
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Aug 21, 2022 16:51
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No Wave posted:Imo they went a little too hard making howard likable/nice in S5/6. If he had a little more edge you could sympathize more with Jimmy/Kim. Howard was likable the entire way through, even season 1 after the reveal imo. Turns out he isn't actually a pigfucker, Jimmy was just trying to be mean!
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Aug 21, 2022 17:02
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He's kind of a douche but not a bad dude
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Aug 21, 2022 17:05
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beep by grandpa posted:This is a really lovely, braindead thing to say about a very well-written show in a thread where folks constantly go to bat for people like Walt, Chuck, Mike, Jimmy and even Howard (me) while hating Skyler lol
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Aug 21, 2022 17:11
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Aye Doc posted:there definitely seemed to be a point in the Jimmy vs. Mesa Verde scheme where Kim's primary motivation turned from "I'm doing this to keep someone from getting kicked out of their home" to "I'm doing this because Mesa Verde have aggrieved me, personally" One of her big triggers seems to be when people express their belief that Jimmy is a lowlife. It's the moment that kicks her into overdrive in several areas:
The ties into a major theme of the show, nature versus nurture. How much of Saul is inevitable vs how much is the result of everybody in the world thinking he's nothing but scum? To what degree was Chuck "right" vs to what degree did he have his thumb on the scales by constantly belittling Jimmy, working his rear end off behind the scenes to keep Jimmy down, and telling Jimmy that he was always going to be a piece of poo poo? This doesn't absolve Jimmy of his actions, but I think the show very smartly leaves the inevitability as an open question. I'd interpret the show and especially the ending as saying that Jimmy is not who Chuck said he was at his core, but that Jimmy thought he had to be that person. Rhea Seehorn said something similar in that great recent interview, where she sees Jimmy as having lost the only person who didn't see him as the sleazy guy, so he gave into that voice in his head because everyone else was telling him that who he was. We see this on most of the other major characters who we follow on journeys: Kim, Mike, Gus, Nacho, and their "bad choice roads". They're often forced into those roads, but they still do make the choices themselves, trapped in this path of evitable inevitability. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Aug 21, 2022 |
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Aug 21, 2022 17:11
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and while Howard was wrong that Jimmy was 'controlling' Kim, she was definitely making major life decisions in direct response to Jimmy's insanely stupid decisions that put their lives into peril, and getting away from him before the life altering trauma they both experienced would have probably led to some nice things Team Hamlin reporting for duty
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Aug 21, 2022 17:12
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I mostly agree (except that weird stone face thing he did to Kim), but the moment when he reveals it was chuck keeping jimmy out is when you think, wait, why am I not supposed to like this guy again? And then S5/S6 piling on stuff like Howard being sad because people dont like him just pushed it so far.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:13
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Howard was the one person in the non-crime world who, at least in a few brief windows, genuinely respected Jimmy's achievements
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Aug 21, 2022 17:14
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It seems like a lot of people get caught up in why Kim goes so hard after Howard (and then keep insisting it’s bad writing) and miss the fact that it’s not really about Howard specifically, it’s what he represents. Howard isn’t that bad overall and Jimmy and Kim are very much aware of that. Howard’s alright for a big-shot lawyer. The reversal in season one is really great, it’s one of those things that’s very obvious if you go back and watch it but it was a big surprise for me at the time.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:16
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wizardofloneliness posted:Howard’s alright for a big-shot lawyer. The reversal in season one is really great, it’s one of those things that’s very obvious if you go back and watch it but it was a big surprise for me at the time.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:19
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Tender Bender posted:Howard, after he corners her in the courthouse to "warn" her about Jimmy is when she decides to go all in on scamming him. Before Howard made her angry she laughed in his face when he said Jimmy'd thrown bowling balls on his car and sent hookers to harass him. At least, this stood out to me on my rewatch.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:21
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morality play, the writers are simple people
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Aug 21, 2022 17:22
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shame on an IGA posted:Howard was the one person in the non-crime world who, at least in a few brief windows, genuinely respected Jimmy's achievements The show really smartly casts very few of its characters as absolutes, and leaves a lot to subtext. Like even Howard praising Jimmy, it's genuine kindness and a real appreciation of Jimmy's work. At the same time, he doesn't realize how patronizing it is to call him Charlie Hustle. He is truly being kind and the show never comes out and says "Hey the forty year old man you're talking to doesn't take it as a compliment when you call him Charlie Hustle."
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Aug 21, 2022 17:24
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massive spider posted:What do you define "character driven" as meaning? to bring this point back don draper being so obsessed with himself that he continuousaly sabotages his own life, even lashes out sometimes, but mostly the consequences of this only ripple out to his marriages, and sometimes his daughter. it sucks, and it's personal. and it's not STUPID. jimmy being like welp, gonna force myself into some random dude house cos i'm 'addicted to crime' that's stupid
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Aug 21, 2022 17:29
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For Saul getting caught, they very well could've had one of those moments like when Jeff slipped and fell unconscious, when someone moved the traffic cone and he barely moved it back in time, when he almost got caught in the golf course locker room and thought to change into a towel so he wouldn't be noticed, those random things he couldn't be expected to account for, just not work the last time
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Aug 21, 2022 17:33
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2nd Amendment posted:One of the biggest questions in BCS is nature vs nurture. Are people made bad or do they break bad? Walt flatly states it in the last episode, "So, you were always like this?" with the dramatic irony of the viewer struggling with that question wrt Jimmy but having no doubt that Walt was always odious. I see this sentiment a lot but I think Walt was a decent guy before the events of Breaking Bad. I can't think of anything at all in the show that would suggest he's a bad guy before he starts cooking meth. His family think of him as a good husband and father. He's considered a good teacher (Jesse's mom says Walt is one of the only teachers who didn't give up on him! How's that for irony). Even Gretchen and Elliot think highly of him. The show is called Breaking Bad after all. e; the irony of Walt saying, "so you were always like this" is that despite how he's done so many terrible things, much worse than Saul even, Walt was once an upstanding guy. Was Jimmy? Well, Jimmy tried to be, but most other people refused to see the good in him. Sinding Johansson fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Aug 21, 2022 |
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Aug 21, 2022 17:37
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roomtone posted:to bring this point back Jimmy isn't "addicted to crime", he's nonstop hustling so he doesn't stop to think about his feelings. He's running frantically from processing his own grief, guilt, and regrets. This is why he goes into scammer overdrive after failing to reconcile with Kim and why the climactic moment of the finale is when he finally discusses exactly those things and says to the camera that he's not running this time.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:40
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I think BrBa and BCS have a very strong protestant outlook. People are inherently bad and it is social norms that separates the noble from the vile. Mike's speech on good criminals and crooked cops.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:47
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Sinding Johansson posted:I see this sentiment a lot but I think Walt was a decent guy before the events of Breaking Bad. I can't think of anything at all in the show that would suggest he's a bad guy before he starts cooking meth. Walt was that person inside, a seething ball of resentment that he kept bubbling at his core while going through life as a mild mannered teacher. I think the discussion about how he left Gretchen shows that he's been an insecure little guy who couldn't handle being a small fish in a big pond for a long time. Other conversations like when he told the doctor why he was running ("I'm an overqualified high school teacher with a handicapped son and a surprise baby on the way, all of my peers have surpassed me in every conceivable way, etc etc"), or even his "I was alive" in the finale show that he was always a person who felt deeply unhappy with his lot in life, and that he truly loved being able to lord his brilliant wit over anyone that he could. It's a subjective opinion whether being deeply unhappy and resentful while living an outwardly normal life makes you "a good person", but I think it's pretty clear that whatever you describe it, that's who he was.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:50
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roomtone posted:to bring this point back I meant what differentiates a character driven story from a plot driven one. Not whether or not you like the character arc or not. BCS is a story where we know exactly where the characters (or at least the BB ones) are going but the show takes its time indulging how and why they get there. Thats pretty much as close to a definition of a character driven story as you get- a story where character examination is the focus not surprises in the plot. The fact that the ending of "he goes to jail" is kind of an isnt really a twist is a marking of a character driven story.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:50
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massive spider posted:She's not really a lady Macbeth beyond the very broad concept of, female character conspiring with a male to do bad things. Yeah I’m not sure 2nd Amendment actually knows who Lady Macbeth is
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Aug 21, 2022 17:51
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Tender Bender posted:Jimmy isn't "addicted to crime", he's nonstop hustling so he doesn't stop to think about his feelings. He's running frantically from processing his own grief, guilt, and regrets. This is why he goes into scammer overdrive after failing to reconcile with Kim and why the climactic moment of the finale is when he finally discusses exactly those things and says to the camera that he's not running this time. i get it, it's baby level.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldXJudwtmy4
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Aug 21, 2022 17:52
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roomtone posted:i get it, it's baby level. What's really Character-Driven are the series of posts where you miss really obvious points in the show, but when they're explained to you, you then complain that they're too simple and obvious for you.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:54
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roomtone posted:i get it, it's baby level. i am sorry this show was not for you and i hope that there are some more mature tv shows on the horizon for you to watch
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Aug 21, 2022 17:55
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Walt was probably kind of a dick prior to the start of the show, but being kind of a dick doesn’t make you an inherently awful person. Lots of people are like that and they still have good qualities at the same time. Walt is even shown to have a few himself early on. Being inherently good or bad isn’t really the point, it’s an impossible judgement anyway. The Mike speech that’s more relevant to Walt is the “Bad Choice Road” one. Walt didn’t have to end up where he did but he made a series of choices that put him on a specific path and after a certain point it gets very very hard to stop where you’re going even if you wanted to. wizardofloneliness fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Aug 21, 2022 |
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Aug 21, 2022 17:56
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roomtone posted:i get it, it's baby level.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:57
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roomtone posted:i get it, it's baby level. don't sign yr posts
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Aug 21, 2022 17:58
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Walt could have been a success in two or three different ways if it wasn't for his own hubris. He could have been a renowned scientist, a respected teacher and family man or meth cook to the stars, but he blew all those chances because he couldn't handle not having the biggest dick in the room. Walt seems like a nice guy when we meet him, and he starts out with honorable intentions, but despite the show being called Breaking Bad what he's actually doing is reverting to type.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:00
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christmas boots posted:Yeah I’m not sure 2nd Amendment actually knows who Lady Macbeth is Nah, I think you just missed the core aspect of Kim's character.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:00
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Tender Bender posted:What's really Character-Driven are the series of posts where you miss really obvious points in the show, but when they're explained to you, you then complain that they're too simple and obvious for you. this makes zero sense but i think i get the general point lining up one character moment to lead onto the next one isn't good writing in s5 the writers decided kim was addicted to jimmy - very litttle hint of this poo poo before - so she starts doing stupid boi moves. jimmy also starts doing dumbass moves around this time, such as going along with the howard plan 'gee i'm so addicted to bad behaviour'. literally the only way these writers know how to express themselves is HE'S AN ADDICT. it's stupid, and the ending is stupid.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:10
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:Walt seems like a nice guy when we meet him, and he starts out with honorable intentions, but despite the show being called Breaking Bad what he's actually doing is reverting to type. I'm rewatching again because Netflix doesn't have s6 BCS, and one of the first things he does is illegally track down Jesse and blackmail him. I guess it's one of those things that you don't think about too hard on a first viewing because we don't really know Walt and the way his life is painted is pretty soul-crushing.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:12
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and some of you people are like, this may be the best show ever it's just a show
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Aug 21, 2022 18:12
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roomtone posted:this makes zero sense but i think i get the general point This isn't what is communicated at all. I would read it as Jimmy going along with the Howard thing because of his relationship with Kim. He is clearly shown as incredibly uncomfortable about it when she brings it up and tries to get her to drop it, and then goes along with it because it injects life into their dying relationship. roomtone posted:but this was a show of two halves, one half kinda sucked until lalo showed up, and it made way too big character changes (kim going after howard, jimmy turning into saul) with basically no explanation, and i feel like people are just giving it a huge pass because since mike's scenes were astoundingly boring about how detailed he is, it must be character driven. I'm sorry but when you say stuff like "Jimmy turning into Saul" was a "big character change with basically no explanation", you're showing that you just failed to understand what you were watching on a catastrophic level. Which is fine, but it's hard to take you seriously when you then turn around and say the show is too baby level and simple for you.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:19
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Better Call Saul is an amazing show and you're of course allowed to think it's bad but be aware you're the weird one.Jerusalem posted:Cranston quite understandably is best known for Walt nowadays, but his Hal was an incredible creation too. The first episode of MitM I can remember seeing, the house was being fumigated and I think they were living in an RV(!) for the duration with the other kids while Malcolm stayed with friends. Hal and Lois started having really angry arguments and Hal couldn't understand why they were suddenly having problems, then Malcolm came back and was hanging around and suddenly inspiration struck for Hal. I assumed this was like any other sitcom, and Hal's realization was that they needed their beloved middle son back so they could be a complete family again, or some other saccharine bullshit. I want to say it's the episode Hal gets a hot boss and Lois is super worried he has the hots for her and Hal says he literally only has eyes for Lois and Lois is flabbergasted and tells him she looks at other guys and Hal goes I know if you wanted me as much as I want you we'd never get out of the bedroom.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:26
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roomtone posted:this makes zero sense but i think i get the general point he's traumatized and the only way that he has been shown to deal with trauma is to go further and further into scams and hosed up poo poo lol go post about things you like if this show wasn't your thing, we get it, but i don't think the things you're saying about the show are actually true. it's fine to have a different opinion but you're literally disagreeing with the text of the thing you're discussing. ok
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Aug 21, 2022 18:26
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roomtone posted:this makes zero sense but i think i get the general point Kim was always ride-or-die for Jimmy and she was always impulsive with a clear will towards destruction, often expressed through self-destruction. A lot of this stems from her impostor syndrome, which she displaces on the Jimmy by wanting to see him succeed. This ultimately results in her pushing Jimmy waaay too far and results in Howard's death. The cover up is also something she ultimately engineered. Lalo shot Howard but Kim is the one who killed him.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:27
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