[Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

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HookedOnChthonics: Dec 5, 2015; Profoundly dull

# ? Aug 10, 2022 18:18

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# ? May 24, 2024 19:23

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

gradenko_2000 posted:

Try Gregory Feifer's "The Great Gamble"

Sounds good, I will check it out. I saw somewhere else people were recommending Zincy Boys. Have any of you read it? If so how does it hold up?

From a cursory glance it just looks like it describes soviet dysfunction throughout the war.

# ? Aug 10, 2022 19:56

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/WetMayor/status/1557913499765964802?t=DzEj6BL0BIFuA6OW8av1Gg&s=19

# ? Aug 12, 2022 03:52

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

the movie is gonna be good, folks

# ? Aug 12, 2022 03:59

birdstrike: Oct 30, 2008; i;m gay

it�s Vive Vendredi here folks and you know what that means:

https://youtu.be/ZyhiL2q7sQE

# ? Aug 12, 2022 07:26

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

AnimeIsTrash posted:

Sounds good, I will check it out. I saw somewhere else people were recommending Zincy Boys. Have any of you read it? If so how does it hold up?

From a cursory glance it just looks like it describes soviet dysfunction throughout the war.

I've read parts of it but not the whole thing. It's not really a traditional history of the war, it's firsthand accounts by Soviet soldiers and their family members. So you get a sense of what it was like to go off and fight in Afghanistan and you get a sense of what it was like to have a relative go off and fight in Afghanistan, but if you're looking for a classic chronological explanation of what happened when and why you won't find it there.

It is really good, though. Sad as hell. Turns out fighting a war in Afghanistan really sucks, who knew?

e: if you want to try before you buy, here's an excerpt Alexievich published in Granta in 1990 to get a sense of what the book is like: https://granta.com/boys-in-zinc/

# ? Aug 12, 2022 11:43

Falukorv: Jun 23, 2013; A funny little mouse!

I read "Afgantsy" which covers similar ground as a general history of the war for a wider audience.

# ? Aug 12, 2022 14:19

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 4 hours!

https://mobile.twitter.com/CostaJedda/status/1559321715611947009

# ? Aug 16, 2022 19:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/1561284987286130688?t=qxWOrrmBCi88UlXVZqDK0g&s=19

# ? Aug 21, 2022 10:34

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

if one were a german POW on the eastern front, did it save a lot of time in the work camps to say "hey I'm communist, lemme help set up poo poo in the new DDR"?

# ? Aug 21, 2022 15:21

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

i say swears online posted:

if one were a german POW on the eastern front, did it save a lot of time in the work camps to say "hey I'm communist, lemme help set up poo poo in the new DDR"?

almost certainly not because the expectation would be that a genuine communist would not be serving in the nazi military

# ? Aug 21, 2022 15:27

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

i say swears online posted:

if one were a german POW on the eastern front, did it save a lot of time in the work camps to say "hey I'm communist, lemme help set up poo poo in the new DDR"?

Even freed former Soviet POWs didn't get time off from the work camps

# ? Aug 21, 2022 15:39

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

vyelkin posted:

almost certainly not because the expectation would be that a genuine communist would not be serving in the nazi military

i just assumed most people were drafted by the end. where did the wellspring of DDR civil society come from by 1947?

# ? Aug 21, 2022 15:46

HootTheOwl: May 13, 2012; Hootin and shootin

Based on the tweet I'm going to assume the best work was done by the first, second, and third white Russians.

# ? Aug 21, 2022 17:18

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

i say swears online posted:

i just assumed most people were drafted by the end. where did the wellspring of DDR civil society come from by 1947?

KPD members who fled to Soviet Union before the war and former nazis.

# ? Aug 21, 2022 17:30

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

A lot of ex nazis/nazi adjacent people also escaped to Africa. A bunch of ex ustase type people fought for the FLN during the Algerian civil war.

# ? Aug 21, 2022 17:33

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Fish of hemp posted:

KPD members who fled to Soviet Union before the war and former nazis.

oh yeah i didn't think about people that were able to escape the purges after the nazis took over, i guess they kinda had a 'government-in-waiting'

# ? Aug 21, 2022 17:55

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

i say swears online posted:

if one were a german POW on the eastern front, did it save a lot of time in the work camps to say "hey I'm communist, lemme help set up poo poo in the new DDR"?

Hell yeah you could, though that was mostly just for officers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Committee_for_a_Free_Germany

# ? Aug 21, 2022 17:55

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

would have thought officers were the more dangerous contingent to the ussr

# ? Aug 21, 2022 17:59

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

The German officer class just wanted orders to follow, any orders

# ? Aug 21, 2022 18:14

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

"if you say you're communist now we'll let you do all the engineering projects you want"

# ? Aug 21, 2022 18:17

Pryor on Fire: May 14, 2013; they don't know all alien abduction experiences can be explained by people thinking saving private ryan was a documentary

Those numbers for Bagration are hard to process: USSR had 2x as many men, 13x as many artillery pieces, 9x as many tanks as the Germans. Then news starts trickling in about the landings in France.

# ? Aug 21, 2022 19:37

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Hell yeah you could, though that was mostly just for officers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Committee_for_a_Free_Germany

key quote from that Wiki page:

quote:

After several failed attempts to recruit officers into the NKFD, it was suggested by Lieutenant-Colonel Alfred Brette that a special organization for officers be set up so that they would not have to come into contact with communists and common soldiers.

# ? Aug 21, 2022 19:52

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

i wonder if they were getting clowned on

# ? Aug 21, 2022 21:19

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 4 hours!

https://mobile.twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1561481629184380929

# ? Aug 22, 2022 00:15

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

vyelkin posted:

key quote from that Wiki page:

They were essentially the same organization in everything but name and did get merged.

Soviet authorities were always the most ready to work with officers because they were primarily using German prisoners for various propaganda and psychological warfare things, and felt that officers were of more use in that way. The other major use for German POWs was being worked to death. Contrast this with the role of Hiwis in Reich service.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 00:23

Feral Integral: Jun 6, 2006; YOSPOS

Pryor on Fire posted:

Yeah the Castle Bravo stuff was on par with the worst poo poo Nazi scientists ever did:

I remember Richard Feynman was all squirrelly about the subject..maybe it was that Mr Feynman book. From that he seemed to be racked with guilt about the fact that it would be used on humans in Japan. But there is no mention of the test sites. I wonder if this usually honest, if not blunt genius was too racked to mention this or if he was so propagandized as to be oblivious to this obvious conclusion of testing on populated islands leading to forced removal and complete contamination of peoples home country.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 04:38

Weembles: Apr 19, 2004

Feral Integral posted:

I remember Richard Feynman was all squirrelly about the subject..maybe it was that Mr Feynman book. From that he seemed to be racked with guilt about the fact that it would be used on humans in Japan. But there is no mention of the test sites. I wonder if this usually honest, if not blunt genius was too racked to mention this or if he was so propagandized as to be oblivious to this obvious conclusion of testing on populated islands leading to forced removal and complete contamination of peoples home country.

Castle Bravo was during the mid 1950s. Feynman quit working on nuclear weapons after WWII ended, if I remember right, and all of the testing for the Manhattan Project weapons was conducted in the US.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 17:05

500excf type r: Mar 7, 2013; I'm as annoying as the high-pitched whine of my motorcycle, desperately compensating for the lack of substance in my life.

He witnessed at least one a bomb test with his own eyes iirc he said Oppenheimer dropped some sand or grass or something and did some quick napkin calculations on the bomb that were remarkably accurate compared to the real data later

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:34

Diogenes of Sinope: Jul 10, 2008

I just finished a re-read of an Oppenheimer biography (American Prometheus) and Feynman was at the Trinity test, but there was no mention of him being at other bomb testings and I don't think he worked on further nuclear weapons development post-war. The push and pull between Los Alamos scientists who were terrified of what they'd unleashed vs. those who wanted to press forward on thermonuclear hydrogen bomb development - and how that manifested in the red-baiting early Cold War years - is the dominant focus of the latter half of the book.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:53

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

500excf type r posted:

He witnessed at least one a bomb test with his own eyes iirc he said Oppenheimer dropped some sand or grass or something and did some quick napkin calculations on the bomb that were remarkably accurate compared to the real data later

That was trinity

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:11

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

The most high thinking British statesmen of all their history are the ones who negotiated the Treaty of Paris. It was excessively massively stupendously stupefyingly generous. Gave the new US more than we could ever imagine and put us on a sure footing to become the juggernaut we are today. But we've paid that back a million loving times with American lives and American money. We propped up the harlequin corpse of the British Empire as long as was possible and we're the only reason they're not operating on the same level as Togo or Kyrgyzstan. American support is the only reason, by the way.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 02:20

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I guess they were worried about the French, as always.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 03:22

birdstrike: Oct 30, 2008; i;m gay

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

We propped up the harlequin corpse of the British Empire as long as was possible and we're the only reason they're not operating on the same level as Togo or Kyrgyzstan. American support is the only reason, by the way.

well that was a colossal loving mistake

# ? Aug 23, 2022 05:24

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 4 hours!

https://mobile.twitter.com/NATOFellah/status/1561995700883292164

# ? Aug 23, 2022 23:23

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 4 hours!

https://mobile.twitter.com/RFERL/status/1562031879359979521

# ? Aug 23, 2022 23:49

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

The best historical anecdote I've come across in a long time. For context, it's the 1790's, and General Anthony Wayne has been sent to deal with some indians who are trying to defend their land from the depredations of white people. He's got a bad problem with desertion because serving in his army sucks.

quote:

Then a court-martial, convened to mete out justice to four of the most incorrigible deserters, sentenced the four to death by shooting, and Wayne approved the sentence. A French priest staying in Pittsburgh gave three of the four men final sacraments of the Catholic Church. Two were already Catholic, and one converted from Protestantism at that moment; all three of those men repented. The sole atheist held out against both unction and repentance.

The priest begged Wayne to spare the men�s lives, but the general was determined to end desertion. On the parade ground, with full solemnity of muffled drumroll, and the deserters� fellow soldiers standing in ranks, the squad raised its guns. The priest fainted. Firing commenced.

But only three men were executed. The priest had told Wayne that the atheist was unprepared for eternity. At the last minute the general had changed the order.

Stick to your principles

# ? Aug 24, 2022 15:43

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

owns

# ? Aug 24, 2022 15:54

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

some excerpts from Grant Harward's "Romania's Holy War" - no overall point or theme to these, just bits that I thought were interesting in the broad CSPAM milieu

quote:

The introduction of universal male suffrage in Romania after the First World War triggered a proliferation of right-wing populist leagues, parties, and movements that radicalized Romanian society and created fertile ideological soil for fascism.� Although the Legionary movement was violently suppressed just before the Second World War, the ideologies of nationalism, religion, antisemitism, and anticommunism that had fostered the growth of fascism remained and formed the basis for Romania�s holy war.

...

In 1864, Prince Cuza implemented land reform, emancipated serfs, and abolished boyar ranks and privileges. (�Boyar� remained a colloquial term for a large landowner.) The great noble families retained much of their land, however, wielding substantial economic and political power; the lesser noble families with little land began assimilating into the middle class.�⁵ Despite the continued power of the great landowners, serfdom�s abolishment facilitated the development of national con- sciousness in the countryside. Educated village notables�clergy, teachers, civil servants, and well-off peasants�became the flag bearers of nationalism in the countryside. ... Tardily, Romania made some investments in the countryside, like Minister of Education Spiru Haret�s programs to construct village schools, train rural teachers, and publish agricultural periodicals for peasant smallholders. This resulted in a spike in rural lit- eracy, which jumped from 15 percent in 1899 to 33 percent in 1912.�⁹ Nationalism spread among peasants. Village teachers taught students that they were the embodiment of the nation, officers lectured recruits that they were the bulwark of the nation, and politicians speechified to landholding male voters that they controlled the future of the nation. Such nationalist rhetoric clashed with reality.

...

Romania�s intervention in the First World War in August 1916 to �liberate� Transylvania was greeted with more nationalist enthusiasm, especially by the middle class. The Romanian Army�s advance was halted, however, and then quickly turned into a rout, leaving Wallachia occupied, and only the arrival of the Russian Army allowed it to hold on to most of Moldavia. The conflict transformed from a war of conquest into a war of defense, and soldiers were bombarded with nationalist, religious, and antisemitic propaganda. After news of the February Revolution in Russia, the Liberal government decided it had to act to mend the rift between the peasants and the great landowners and middle class to avoid revolution in Romania.

...

While Romania had nearly doubled in size after the First World War, for some Romanians it was not enough. Ultra-nationalists advocated expanding Greater Romania�s borders. The most common refrain was �To the Tisa!� because ultra-nationalists argued Romania�s �natural� border was on the Tisa River deeper in Hungary, not the border drawn by the Paris Peace Conference in 1919. A less common cry was �Across the Dniester!� by ultra-nationalists who wanted to bring Soviet Moldavians, whom they dubbed transnistrieni, into the national fold. Moldavians in the USSR were the largest group of ethnic Romanians remaining outside Greater Romania. Indeed, in the early 1920s, Romania staked a claim to territory across the Dniester, including the impor- tant port of Odessa.��

...

Although the large landowning and middle classes were more secular than the peasant class, the granting of citizenship and equal rights to minorities, especially Jews, made religion even more important in defining Romanians� national identity.⁴� The religious philosopher Nae Ionescu held a well-publicized debate with a Catholic colleague at the Univer- sity of Bucharest during 1930 in which he argued Catholics could become �good Romanians� by being respectable citizens, but they could never become true �Romanians� because they were not Romanian Orthodox.⁴⁴ He was among the numerous intellectuals who made similar arguments about religion�many of whom were later attracted to the Legionary movement�s mystical Romanian Orthodox nationalism.⁴⁵ Therefore, most Romanians believed their religion not only set them apart spiritually but also ethnically from other faiths.

...

Romania�s discrimination against Jews was so notorious that as part of the Treaty of Berlin in 1878 the Great Powers required Romania to add a minority clause to its constitution to protect Jews� rights.⁵⁹

...

Nationalist activism failed to block the minority clause, which was included in the 1923 constitution. Consequently, Professor Alexandru C. Cuza established the Liga Apărării Naţionale Creştine (LANC), or the League of National Christian Defense, that same year. Cuza was a mentor to student activists in Iaşi, in- cluding one of his law students, the future fascist leader Corneliu Codreanu. His LANC had a single platform: antisemitism. However, because eliminating Jews from the economy was supposedly a cure-all for the maladies of poverty and corruption, the LANC attracted many peasants, especially in Bessarabia, Bukovina, and Moldavia, where the greatest number of Jews were located.⁷� LANC members attacked Liberals for agreeing to the minority clause and accused them of being controlled by Jews. The new National Peasant Party did so as well. Liberals courting peasant voters, who now made up most of the electorate, blamed social, economic, and polit- ical problems on Jews to divert anger away from the party�s failure to deliver on promises of a better life in Greater Romania.⁷�

...

Communism attracted few adherents in Romania. When the Romanian Communist Party split from the Social Democratic Party in 1922 it had only two thousand members.⁹⁴ If communism ruled Romania, large landowners would lose their land and power, the middle class their property and businesses, and peasants their land and way of life. The working class, which was the most likely to find Bolshevik rhetoric attractive, was very small in Romania. Additionally, the state outlawed the Romanian Communist Party in 1924, discouraging Romanians from joining out of fear of imprisonment.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 16:10

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# ? May 24, 2024 19:23

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

500excf type r posted:

He witnessed at least one a bomb test with his own eyes iirc he said Oppenheimer dropped some sand or grass or something and did some quick napkin calculations on the bomb that were remarkably accurate compared to the real data later

That was Fermi, using Fermi estimation and small pieces of paper. He calculated 10 kilotons, but pretty much all the predictions for the test were that it would be between 5 and 20 kilotons if it succeeded.

# ? Aug 26, 2022 21:35

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