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Tulip posted:I find this to be kind of interesting since my approach is to accept that not only as a possibility but quite possibly intended design, and treat that as an indictment of WoD's writing and ethics. I worry that your interpretations have more to do with with what you wish were true of WoD than the actual content, cuz uhhh I'm not convinced that the people who wrote the Get of Fenris share my philosophy. To be fair, "what Ferrinus wishes oWoD would be" is also "what interpretation of oWoD would you need to make to have it be worth touching in 2022 in the first place". Not to needlessly rehabilitate what a bunch of nerds in Georgia wrote thirty years ago, it's worth thinking about both what it could be and what it is.
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Aug 17, 2022 20:55
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Lurks With Wolves posted:To be fair, "what Ferrinus wishes oWoD would be" is also "what interpretation of oWoD would you need to make to have it be worth touching in 2022 in the first place". Not to needlessly rehabilitate what a bunch of nerds in Georgia wrote thirty years ago, it's worth thinking about both what it could be and what it is. Also not everything in the oWoD was bad, just the really gross poo poo is...well really gross and tends to stand out because everyone has had the "Holy poo poo can you believe this?" moment with at least one of the books. Being generous to the various authors, the gross poo poo from oWoD (from my perspective as someone reading and reviewing the books) falls into one of two piles. 1 being leaning into the tropes of the genre and trying to jazz it up for The 90’s and is what I consider to be "Good intentions but misguided in execution" sort of stuff that reading it now you cringe and think "Ooof, I get the idea but time has moved on and this ain't it" 2 is the straight up racist poo poo that slipped through and is considerably less forgivable or understandable for the time it released. Some of it is more subtle like the Get in 1e being shamed by the Nazis in the tribe but also willingly taking on skinheads because "Welp they fight good  " but no less gross than the explicitly racist bullshit that is this image https://imgur.com/WJyH6GiThere's also some genuinely good stuff floating around in the oWoD books, but it is a mine field of bizarre and sometimes horrible poo poo (and likely not the way its authors expected)
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Aug 17, 2022 22:03
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joylessdivision posted:1 being leaning into the tropes of the genre and trying to jazz it up for The 90’s and is what I consider to be "Good intentions but misguided in execution" sort of stuff that reading it now you cringe and think "Ooof, I get the idea but time has moved on and this ain't it" There is something - very little, but something - to be said for oWoD and Shadowrun too* making an effort to include indigenous populations in their game worlds because. It's like a very fumbling baby step. *And like a lot of things Nightlife did it before WoD! They had a whole splat! They were called the Inuit and are... as bad the Wendigo in execution. So.
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Aug 17, 2022 22:51
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Tulip posted:I find this to be kind of interesting since my approach is to accept that not only as a possibility but quite possibly intended design, and treat that as an indictment of WoD's writing and ethics. I worry that your interpretations have more to do with with what you wish were true of WoD than the actual content, cuz uhhh I'm not convinced that the people who wrote the Get of Fenris share my philosophy. To be clear, I completely agree that oWoD is racist on the level of, or even more so than, D&D and a lot of other such games, and certainly more so than the nWoD. I further think that the desire to retvrn to the oWoD after all this time is fundamentally reactionary, as was made painfully obvious to everyone by Ericsson's antics but doesn't stop being true after they sweep one embarrassing guy back out of sight. However, as with (at least until recent) D&D, the racism, antisemitism, etc are manifested in the game's own unique fantastical elements, not just manifested as explicit assumptions about the setting that map 1-to-1 onto the things racists believe about the nonfictional history and present we actually experience. No roleplaying game that isn't an explicit shot in the culture war is going to come out and give Jews +2 to their Finance skill. What many roleplaying games are going to do is assign you a "clan" or a "tribe" or indeed even a "race" which effectively acts as an unremovable exosuit or Duration: Indefinite debuff that affects not just science-fictional capacities like heat vision or telepathy but your intellect, your personality, your underlying urges, and your general fitness to take part in society. So the V5 Brujah clan compulsion isn't literally called "Triggered" any more—the writers aren't that insensitive—but, you know, if you're a Brujah you're still sort of uppity, still sort of have a hair trigger for grievance, still kind of have these high-falutin' philosophical pretensions but at the root you're just violent and short-tempered... although this kind of corresponds to a particular IRL stereotype, it doesn't actually have to. The mere fact that people do come in these types, and what type of guy you are basically determines your place in society, and indeed all of heretofore existing history is the history of type-of-guy struggle... that's racism. Not racism the impolite interpersonal habit but racism the ideology, racism the paradigm, if you will. Like other paradigms, it's an attempt to explain plainly-observable material reality with reference to invisible forces and secret laws, but they're laws like "blood will out" and "some people just aren't fit to lead". But, as much as the games might try to sell this idea to us, it's up to us to either buy it or reject it, especially when that material's supposed to describe or be set in the real world. As much as Nosferatu being inherently sneaky and Ravnos being inherently daring might make it seem logical, we don't actually have to take their direction and be like "oh, that means in this fictional setting, women really are emotional and domestic". There's actually no context, fictional or nonfictional, in which it's acceptable to draw that conclusion! So while it's perfectly reasonable to just reject these games out of hand for being written this way, if we aren't going to reject them out of hand we should take them seriously and figure out how they actually work so that we can learn something from them or derive some enjoyment from engaging with them. And in general I've found that these kinds of redemptive readings both let me have more fun with the material and sharpen my ability to criticize the material's flaws.
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Aug 17, 2022 23:00
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Ferrinus posted:To be clear, I completely agree that oWoD is racist on the level of, or even more so than, D&D and a lot of other such games, and certainly more so than the nWoD. I further think that the desire to retvrn to the oWoD after all this time is fundamentally reactionary, as was made painfully obvious to everyone by Ericsson's antics but doesn't stop being true after they sweep one embarrassing guy back out of sight. So now you're calling everyone in the thread that still likes oWoD things in any capacity an antisemite and racist. Got it.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 18, 2022 03:27
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that post is literally a justification of liking the owod, in spite of itself. did you not read past the first paragraph?
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Aug 18, 2022 03:31
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Fuzz posted:So now you're calling everyone in the thread that still likes oWoD things in any capacity an antisemite and racist. Got it. In fact I am committed to a redemptive critical reading of the oWoD despite its racism. Can you not say the same?
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Aug 18, 2022 03:32
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Yeah, for all my objections to Ferrinus's takes - which, let's face it, are basically just anarchist vs communist but with nerdgames as the battleground - that's really not a valid read of his post. I love my dumb vampire game but you better believe there's a poo poo ton of its content I don't put on my tabletop. Hell, when I was working on a little oWoD text adventure to hone my programming skills I took the chance to radically rewrite a bunch of poo poo (like the entire Metis issue) rather than keep using it uncritically.
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Aug 18, 2022 03:49
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Fuzz posted:So now you're calling everyone in the thread that still likes oWoD things in any capacity an antisemite and racist. Got it. What's it like to be sharpening your knife about this for presumably weeks until you saw your chance to jump to a bad faith misreading of a cogent post about the very real material circumstances the game was printed in? Like, Gypsies isn't up for sale anymore but people were paid to write it and the company received money for it in turn, that's always going to be part of the legacy of the system. Anyone who plays oWoD is gonna be holding that bag on one level or another, even if it's not in their game, and that has to be reckoned with. That's not an indictment of the person playing in the game of V5 that doesn't reference the Ravnos or whatever, but it's an indictment of the game itself for having contributed materially to allowing those things to be printed and purchased for consumption by someone who may be a little more willing to, say, have a clan of Romani appear in their game and have a Ravnos start stealing from the Rack or take something the Prince cares about.
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Aug 18, 2022 04:17
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a7m2 posted:How do you guys play Malkavians? I want to introduce some Malkavian SPCs in my chronicle but I really want to avoid making light of mental illness (or making it seem like the worst thing in the world for that matter). One of the SPCs I have planned will have some memories that aren't actually hers in addition to her own, but they are always somebody's memories. This potentially gives her knowledge that she normally would not have been able to gain, but it can be difficult for her to fully understand the memories since they might lack context. I like this because it's clearly supernatural while still fitting within the spirit of the Malkavian curse.
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Aug 18, 2022 04:44
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Nessus posted:The best Malkavian character I have had had a sort of "sometimes my Disciplines just fire off at random although since I hate myself and am nosy it's usually the sensory ones" thing going on. She was otherwise nice and caring, for a vampire, and in fact was concerned with the wellbeing of all Malkavians. The game didn't go super far but I obscurely hinted she might have been Malkav's way of organizing his thoughts. My favorite Derangement is the one whose name escapes me but boils down to 'the ST can also spend my blood points.' Nothing like walking into Elysium suddenly on the verge of a hunger Frenzy!
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Aug 18, 2022 13:05
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Dawgstar posted:My favorite Derangement is the one whose name escapes me but boils down to 'the ST can also spend my blood points.' Nothing like walking into Elysium suddenly on the verge of a hunger Frenzy!
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Aug 19, 2022 02:48
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I saw somebody playing Sanguinary Animism as basically Thane from Mass Effect, occasionally lapsing into fugues reliving memories from her victims and having difficulty distinguishing them from reality.
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Aug 19, 2022 03:18
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I've been thinking about all of this Of Darkness game stuff and it's all The Consensus. It's all true, the good stuff and the bad stuff. It's also all a lie, as well. Each one of you are both 100% correct about these games, and completely wrong about these games.
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Aug 19, 2022 06:09
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One of the most fun Malkavian players I have ever had in a game was totally normal 90 percent of the time, but had some deeply held delusion that was just extremely not true. Telling stories about dealing with severe depression can be interesting if hard to get the player to do things with the group, but knowing that the Prince and all the Primogen are secretly Werewolf infiltraters adds a different flavor to the campaign.
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Aug 19, 2022 13:19
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Lord_Hambrose posted:One of the most fun Malkavian players I have ever had in a game was totally normal 90 percent of the time, but had some deeply held delusion that was just extremely not true. Telling stories about dealing with severe depression can be interesting if hard to get the player to do things with the group, but knowing that the Prince and all the Primogen are secretly Werewolf infiltraters adds a different flavor to the campaign. I would say these people have some kind of Alex Jones-esque disorder except heartfelt and deep rooted; they look through a crack in reality and whatever they see (which should usually have some tangential aspect of truth) becomes, not just their truth, but a bigger important truth than surviving in their night to night existence, even if they can wrestle it down a little. But then that is my preferred model for their 'derangements' rather than just eternal DSM-III diagnoses.
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Aug 19, 2022 17:54
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I've been thinking about all of this Of Darkness game stuff and it's all The Consensus. It's all true, the good stuff and the bad stuff. It's also all a lie, as well. I'm not sure Discordian nonsense will avail you here.
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Aug 19, 2022 18:19
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Organic Lube User posted:I'm not sure Discordian nonsense will avail you here. All of the Traditions are true in some sense, false in some sense, and meaningless in some sense.
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Aug 19, 2022 18:48
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All of the Traditions... are political. If you get hung up on their specific religious claims then you've been had. And to echo others in this thread, Malkavians work best when "that guy is crazy" is an easy assumption for onlookers to make rather than an actual inscribed-in-the-blood fact of the Malkavian themselves. There's a lot of ways to mechanize "have trouble thinking and/or expressing yourself because you've Seen Too Much, and indeed keep Seeing Too Much More every drat day" that don't involve spinning the wheel of IRL mental illnesses and then playing up whatever it lands on. What my group did was something like "negative dice trick on Wits and Composure rolls (you're disoriented and on edge)" (this was nWoD, so the oWoD equivalent would probably be Wits and Perception) and "you need to pass a social or mental roll with this self-same penalty to clearly describe or explain something you've learned using your powers or otherwise while in this altered state". And this wasn't an always-on thing, your Malkavia would get aggravated or quiet down depending on if you were using your powers, if you'd rolled really poorly (or too well) on various mental rolls, etc. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 19:11
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Pope Guilty posted:All of the Traditions are true in some sense, false in some sense, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this six hundred and sixty-six times and you will achieve Illumination.
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Aug 20, 2022 01:16
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worm girl posted:I think subtextually that's there, but overwhelmingly the players I run into insist that it is not in any way difficult for vampires to be altruistic and lead completely benign unlives where bad things only happen when Strix or whatever cause them to happen. If you search the entire book, you will find nothing about vampires being static anymore. EDIT: A lot of the changes to V5 are an effort by the devs to finally force Charlz Guybon fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 12:41
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https://twitter.com/TheOnyxPath/status/1560990046345252864 W20 was a decade ago. Time to crawl back in the crypt, I guess. Also happy thirtieth birthday you weird racist game that I still kind of love.
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Aug 20, 2022 15:09
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Dawgstar posted:https://twitter.com/TheOnyxPath/status/1560990046345252864 Apocalypse has been the best surprise so far of my reviews. It's got problems for sure but Garou go Raaaaaaaa and stuff goes splat and  it's just delightful
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Aug 20, 2022 19:55
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Charlz Guybon posted:I don't know why you're acting like this is something limited to CoD, superheroes with fangs has always been the most popular playstyle even with OWoD, no matter how much the books hammer on about personal horror. That post is from almost five months ago m'lord.
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Aug 20, 2022 23:07
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I'm looking to learn as much as I can about the Pure. Is there a lot of information overlap between Night Horrors: Shunned by the Moon and the 1st edition Pure book?
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Aug 21, 2022 13:57
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a7m2 posted:I wan my first ever game of Vampire last night. Dunno how many people will care but I had a good time and I feel like writing up a report. Had my second session. We're using FoundryVTT and Discord but this time I used more of its features than before. Last time I just used Foundry for the character sheets and rolling dice and just had a nice background picture up, but this time I had more time to prepare ambient music and a large map of Chicago on which I placed the locations that the coterie visited. On each landmark I added a link to Google Maps' Street View, which really added a great dimension to the game and made the world feel much more alive. I still described every scene in detail, but after I described it, I linked the map. For indoor locations, I sent photos of similar locations. Both the music and visuals helped the new players especially immerse themselves better. The best part is it doesn't take much to just search for stuff like "late night bar in Englewood" or whatever and quickly find a suitable spot. This session wasn't very eventful but managed to still be great. Mostly the players just talked a ton among each other and we took a few breaks to flesh out some background information for the PCs when relevant. The neonate Ravnos who found the two fledglings, Gangrel and Brujah, decided to take them to someone in the Anarch leadership, reasoning that bringing to unauthorized and sire-less fledglings to the Camarilla Sheriff would probably end up with them dead and herself potentially in trouble also. During the drive over, the Brujah realized that she wasn't breathing and started consciously breathing until she realized there was no point. This was a great little moment. They went to a lovely little bar, an Anarch hangout, where they sat and waited until the person they were looking for showed up. Both on the drive over and while waiting in the bar they spent a really long time talking among each other, which was great because they were all playing off each other and I barely interjected. They also decided to approach and talk to another vampire that was hanging out in the bar, telling the guy about their evening. I could barely contain myself when they did this because I was planning on having this guy spy on them and use this info against them and was trying to figure out the best way to pull this off, but they just walked up to him and told them about their Masquerade violation unprompted. When they met the Anarch, she praised them for cleaning up after their mess, sympathized with their situation and said that for the time being she'd put the word out that the fledglings are under her protection as long as they keep their heads down and didn't draw more attention to themselves. The Ravnos was asked to form a coterie with the fledglings and take them under the Ravnos' wing. In exchange, the Anarch promised to support the coterie and mentioned that the fledglings would owe the Ravnos. The Ravnos has no friends in Chicago other than her Ghoul and a single mortal, so having some Kindred, no matter how fresh, to watch her back wasn't such a bad thing. The Anarch told the fledglings some of the basic rules that the Ravnos hadn't mentioned yet (don't hunt in someone's domain, you don't have to kill when you drink, etc.), told them to come back in a few nights for a job, and they parted ways. Upon leaving the bar, the Gangrel discovered she could talk to animals when she spotted an owl, and she decided to make it her familiar. The player had already told me she wanted an owl so I used it as a moment to teach her about her Animalism powers. It's difficult to roleplay an owl. The Ravnos got mad at the Gangrel for doing it in the middle of the street, explaining that she should be doing that where she can't be easily spotted, which drove the point home well for the Gangrel. They found a place to spend the night (the Ravnos player went on Google Maps to find a truck stop nearby, which I loved), with the owl and the Ravnos' ghoul watching over the coterie while they slept and that's where the session ended. Like I said, it was not very eventful and was mostly just the players talking among themselves, learning about their new condition and getting to know each other, but it was really a ton of fun. Thankfully they met two characters that are perfect for setting up the story I have planned and things will start to ramp up from now on. Next session they're going to be confronted by some of their touchstones, since they've gone AWOL for over 24 hours and then everything will be ready for the first real story arch to kick off. I didn't yet introduce a Malkavian character, but I certainly appreciate all your feedback. It's given me a lot to think about and will definitely steal some of your ideas.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:38
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Some of the best Vampire sessions are often the ones where the players are just sort of doing self-directed activities with the ST providing a world for them to bounce off of. Not a lot has to "happen" if the characters are making goals, dealing with obstacles, and feel like they've gotten somewhere by the end of the session. You still want a plot obviously, but it's a sign of a healthy game when the players live in their characters and do half the STing themselves.
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Aug 21, 2022 23:46
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worm girl posted:Some of the best Vampire sessions are often the ones where the players are just sort of doing self-directed activities with the ST providing a world for them to bounce off of. Not a lot has to "happen" if the characters are making goals, dealing with obstacles, and feel like they've gotten somewhere by the end of the session. You still want a plot obviously, but it's a sign of a healthy game when the players live in their characters and do half the STing themselves. Yeah this right here is the sign that you've built a world your players are interested in and that they've actually made *characters* and not just a character sheet.
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Aug 22, 2022 00:49
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Sounds like they've got a sandbox to explore and NPCs they want to bounce off of. 10/10 Vampire chronicle.
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Aug 22, 2022 01:04
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Hi there! haven't checked this thread in a long time. Some of my friends who haver never played an RPG are interested in playing Vampire, and I said I would DM for them. Now, last timed I DMed was in V20, but V5 seems to be better for what I would like the campaign to be (more personal, smaller scope plot points). · What's the consensus on V5 nowadays? I read the corebook and hated its layout, but never got to try the game itself. · Are there any good "must read" books for V5? Maybe the camarilla/anarch books? · Are there any ready-made chronicles / one-shots that you could recommend?
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Aug 22, 2022 13:48
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Cable posted:Hi there! haven't checked this thread in a long time. V5 is very popular but I think the consensus in this thread will be somewhat mixed. Outside of this thread, V5 seems to be the most popular version and well liked. I personally really like the hunger mechanics as opposed to the old blood points stuff because it's no longer just mana. The hunger dice also add an interesting dimension to things and I think effectively communicates the danger of the Beast as well as the importance of keeping hunger under control. This plus the cool rules V5 adopted from Requiem (such as touchstones) were the deciding factors for me. The core book's layout is dog poo poo, but there are some good cheat sheets out there. If you want to place your chronicle in Chicago, then the Chicago By Night book is quite good. It's got a ready-made chronicle as well as many characters with extensive backstories, locations, coteries, and story hooks. Well worth your time. If you do choose to get that book, check out this map. I didn't think the Camarilla, Anarch and Sabbat books were particularly good, but if you love the metaplot, you'll probably like them. The Chicago Folios isn't bad either. It's mostly just a collection of decent story hooks and a few extra SPCs and Loresheets but it's a direct supplement to Chicago by Night. Let The Streets Run Red has four pre-written chronicles set in and around Chicago. I haven't read all of them but plan to run the first one, Power Prey, which seems pretty fun and good for early on. I made a few changes for my own game but it saved a ton of time. Trail of Ash and Bone is another book with pre-written chronicles, this time set in locations around the world. I haven't read it myself. The Fall of London is a series of London-based chronicles and is set right before the Second Inquisition kicks off and is apparently quite good, but I can't speak for it myself. If you want to delve into cults and religions, Cults of the Blood Gods is great. I read through it a bit and quite liked it but I haven't had the chance to use it yet. It also has a full chronicle as well as story hooks.
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Aug 22, 2022 14:16
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a7m2 posted:V5 is very popular but I think the consensus in this thread will be somewhat mixed. Outside of this thread, V5 seems to be the most popular version and well liked. I personally really like the hunger mechanics as opposed to the old blood points stuff because it's no longer just mana. The hunger dice also add an interesting dimension to things and I think effectively communicates the danger of the Beast as well as the importance of keeping hunger under control. This plus the cool rules V5 adopted from Requiem (such as touchstones) were the deciding factors for me. Heeeeh. Isn't it more that it's the current version? I doubt anything comes close to the 90s boom. Not anything to do with the quality of the game, that's just when the Vampire craze was at it's strongest.
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Aug 22, 2022 16:11
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If they've never played anything before all our caveats against v5 or v20 (or vtr which I'd better than both) don't actually matter. Go with v5
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Aug 22, 2022 16:27
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a7m2 posted:I personally really like the hunger mechanics as opposed to the old blood points stuff because it's no longer just mana. Yes it is, because you can run out of (lack of) Hunger. Which is fine, to be clear. I just don't get why everyone keeps saying otherwise. They could've done some interesting stuff with Hunger to not make it mana, but they didn't, and so it's mana with randomized costs.
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Aug 22, 2022 16:34
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Ferrinus posted:Yes it is, because you can run out of (lack of) Hunger. MonsieurChoc posted:Heeeeh. Isn't it more that it's the current version? I doubt anything comes close to the 90s boom. Not anything to do with the quality of the game, that's just when the Vampire craze was at it's strongest. V5 definitely not better than V20 in every way. I think V20 and V5 (and VtR) each have their advantages and there's no clear winner, it just depends on the group and what your goal is. If you're playing with a new group and you're playing WoD (as opposed to CoD), I personally think V5 is best. If you're looking for a smaller, street-level game, I think V5 is better. I think V5 also has more emphasis on vampirism as a curse and the eternal struggle with the beast, though that can also easily be done in other systems if the Storyteller wants to.
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Aug 22, 2022 17:11
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Ferrinus posted:Yes it is, because you can run out of (lack of) Hunger. What things do you think they could have done to make Hunger not mana? Like, that sounds like it'd be a cool design space.
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Aug 22, 2022 17:15
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As someone who never paid much attention to V5 directly, it seems like it's settled into "interesting but flawed". And every edition can be described that way, so I can't complain too much about it. Still, there's one thing about the average book quality I noticed that's worth mentioning. Early V5 is consistently decent, because Paradox was putting the effort in in-house. It was also consistently so edgy it drove a lot of people off, because the head developer was an edgelord piece of poo poo. After that guy oversaw an international incident, Paradox kind of gave up and just farmed the writing out to other RPG developers. That means V5 isn't insultingly edgy any more and has some really good peaks, but there's no consistency and some of the adventure books they've put out for V5 are useless. Even as someone who doesn't really like V5, I do wish we could have had the best of both worlds there.
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Aug 22, 2022 17:15
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I mean, has any iteration of White Wolf ever put out a good adventure book? It's kind of chronic. I think the closest is Time of Tumult which had one good scenario out of three.
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Aug 22, 2022 17:19
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Ferrinus posted:Which is fine, to be clear. I just don't get why everyone keeps saying otherwise. The randomization really does play a much more imoortant factor than the rules alone make it look. It absolutely is just "spend 1d2-1 BP/Vitae" at its heart, but the shift from a direct point spend to a roll causes a small but noticable psychological change when I compare the Requiem 2e game I'm in to the Masquerade 5e game I run. Both are concerned with resource management and both feel like looming threats, but the R2 table sees it as a harsh strategy game while the V5 table sees it as a constant gamble. The entire view of the in-fiction world changes because of that. This isn't scientific in the least, the two groups don't share players, but that seems to hold with other anecdotes. I figure it's the same reason why some shooters have the last bullet in the chamber hit 100% of the time, or why video games use psychological tricks in general: sometimes "bellyfeel" really does triumph standard design.
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Aug 22, 2022 17:33
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, has any iteration of White Wolf ever put out a good adventure book? It's kind of chronic. HtV had a few that ruled.
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Aug 22, 2022 17:35
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