USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

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Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Discendo Vox posted:

This isn't what any of the people involved say, and is contradicted by the sources already provided to you by multiple people, including statements from the author of the letter that you fell back on after your claims were entertained and disproven.

Insisting and doubling down on the counter that Fauci didn't mishandle the AIDS crisis doesn't make it true.

If he weren't mishandling it, the letter never would have been written - because it wouldn't have had to have been written.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 18:56

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# ? May 24, 2024 23:04

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Lib and let die posted:

I hate to sound like that one guy from the Fort Deitrick episode of criminal minds but even the most generous defense of some notion of having to protect supplies so that doctors etc had them for their trade that it never really caught on that "holy poo poo we're woefully unprepared for a plague of any kind" never came out of it. It all turned into culture war personal responsibility poo poo.

It's not a big leap to make from "holy poo poo we can handle COVID" to "holy poo poo imagine sarin gas or anthrax attacks on a mass scale?"

That's totally fair and the country obviously wasn't prepared. But, that is different that claiming Fauci said X, when they never did.

Also, I already told you that nobody understands your Criminal Minds references, Grandpa!

# ? Aug 22, 2022 18:57

Rigel: Nov 11, 2016

Yinlock posted:

It's only really changed in that the rich feel insulated enough from the consequences that they feel fine letting the disease ravage the populace.

The only reason lockdown even happened in the first place is that they made the astonishing discovery that having a lot of money doesn't actually make someone immune to disease.

The fact that ordinary voters (who aren't rich) absolutely despise lockdowns and use masks only very reluctantly had a lot more to do with it. This isn't something that can be easily imposed and kept in place on a whim; as soon as the rate of infection and death was low enough to make it politically untenable to keep in place, it was going to be lifted by the politicians who have to answer to those voters.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 18:58

Alexander Hamilton: Dec 29, 2008

I�m pretty dumb but it does seem like Fauci did a good job managing disease control when he didn�t have a Republican president as his boss. Probably just a coincidence

(Actually, I guess W did a good job managing it but it was more of a national security concern back then)

# ? Aug 22, 2022 18:58

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

That's totally fair and the country obviously wasn't prepared. But, that is different that claiming Fauci said X, when they never did.

Also, I already told you that nobody understands your Criminal Minds references, Grandpa!

So why the switch from "don't go out and buy masks!" (paraphrased) to a veritable sea of PR slots with pigs, politicians, service workers, and any occupation you can think of masking up and giving a thumbs up and saying "I'm doing my part!"?

Where did the initial idea that masks were an ineffective response to COVID originally come from?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 18:59

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

and when people were asking the CDC if they should mask up or not, Fauci's answer was 'no, it will not help you, please pay no attention to all the states busily buying up every piece of PPE they can get their hands on.'

whoopsie doodle!

From the liberal placating studio known as CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/factsfirst/politics/factcheck_e58c20c6-8735-4022-a1f5-1580bc732c45 posted:

While Fauci, along with several other US health leaders, initially advised people not to wear masks, Fauci later said that he was concerned that there wouldn�t be enough protective equipment for health care workers. This was also early in the pandemic before public health experts fully knew how contagious the disease was and how it spread.

�

�So when people say, �Well, why did you change your stance? And why are you emphasizing masks so much now when back then you didn't -- and in fact you even said you shouldn't because there was a shortage of masks?� Well the data now are very, very clear,� he said.

�We need to put that nonsense behind us about �well, they keep changing their minds,� � Fauci said.

Even with this generous take, CNN states outright Fauci advised folks not to wear a mask.

It was obvious that wearing a mask was THE best defense at the time, given that the wealthy were snatching them up in droves and wearing them whenever they flew.

To say otherwise is to be a history revisionists at best and a liberal propaganda vomit machine at worst.

evilweasel posted:

it is the core pillar of republican propaganda about covid, that Trump was not the problem it was Fauci that was the problem.

evilweasel posted:

claiming that trump, personally, was not a deliberately malicious actor is indeed repeating republican propaganda. that all deaths are not solely at his feet does not change the fact that there is basically no person whose actions increased the deaths caused by covid by even an order of magnitude less than trump did. he was the president for a key year of the pandemic and was personally responsible for vast amounts of, quote "America's response to things itself" this is just a slightly reskinned version of the same core claim.

This is such an incredibly gross mischaracterization of what I stated. Please either point out where is said Trump had zero responsibility for the covid deaths or apologize for making up posting arguments in your brain.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:02

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Lib and let die posted:

So why the switch from "don't go out and buy masks!" (paraphrased) to a veritable sea of PR slots with pigs, politicians, service workers, and any occupation you can think of masking up and giving a thumbs up and saying "I'm doing my part!"?

Where did the initial idea that masks were an ineffective response to COVID originally come from?

It came from the initial WHO reporting in January and February 2020 (that Fauci backed and promoted) that asymptomatic people were not likely to spread covid very much. When the WHO released new information that about 40% of infections came from asymptomatic people, most world health agencies changed their recommendations.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:02

Fritz the Horse: Dec 26, 2019; ... of course!

Lib and let die posted:

Insisting and doubling down on the counter that Fauci didn't mishandle the AIDS crisis doesn't make it true.

If he weren't mishandling it, the letter never would have been written - because it wouldn't have had to have been written.

As has been pointed out already in this thread- Kramer, the author of the letter you are relying on, later praised Fauci's handling of the crisis. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4005023&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=198#post525720093

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:04

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Lib and let die posted:

Insisting and doubling down on the counter that Fauci didn't mishandle the AIDS crisis doesn't make it true.

If he weren't mishandling it, the letter never would have been written - because it wouldn't have had to have been written.

I'm confused. Your original claim was

Lib and let die posted:

One less homophobe in the Biden admin, that's a W even I can appreciate.

When asked about it, it dissolved into "here's a letter berating him/his response to the AIDS crisis". Which was written by an activist who later changed his tune and praised Fauci's response during that time, declaring him a hero.

So.... assuming my summary is correct (please correct me if it's not), how does this tie back into your original claim :confused:

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:05

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Lib and let die posted:

Insisting and doubling down on the counter that Fauci didn't mishandle the AIDS crisis doesn't make it true.

If he weren't mishandling it, the letter never would have been written - because it wouldn't have had to have been written.

This was already been explained to you here, and here, and here, in response to your original unsupported claim. Only after that point did you then cite to a letter already addressed by the moderator responding to your original unsupported claim.

This was then further re-explained to you, with additional sources, here and here.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:06

Yinlock: Oct 22, 2008

Rigel posted:

The fact that ordinary voters (who aren't rich) absolutely despise lockdowns and use masks only very reluctantly had a lot more to do with it. This isn't something that can be easily imposed and kept in place on a whim; as soon as the rate of infection and death was low enough to make it politically untenable to keep in place, it was going to be lifted by the politicians who have to answer to those voters.

Anti-lockdown sentiment grew chiefly because at the tiniest, wispiest dip in infection rate politicians would immediately try to open 'er up again only for things to get worse. This pattern happened multiple times which led to the impression that lockdown wasn't working.

After they felt safe the rich were just looking for a politically tenable way to open everything up again and the hardcore anti-maskers were useful tools in that regard. The rate of infection and death(of poors) never mattered to them one bit.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:06

selec: Sep 6, 2003

Here�s another way to think about it:

In countries that handled the pandemic far better than we did, with much lower health impact, do they have a Fauci figure, do they have a functioning system?

Does China have a Fauci as recognizable as ours? Why or why not? Did this impact their ability to respond in a way that didn�t prioritize profit and political polarization?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:09

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Kalit posted:

I'm confused. Your original claim was

When asked about it, it dissolved into "here's a letter berating him/his response to the AIDS crisis". Which was written by an activist who later changed his tune and praised Fauci's response during that time, declaring him a hero.

So.... assuming my summary is correct (please correct me if it's not), how does this tie back into your original claim

So we've totally moved on from the monkey pox / msm messaging mess too, then?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:10

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

From the liberal placating studio known as CNN:

Even with this generous take, CNN states outright Fauci advised folks not to wear a mask.

It was obvious that wearing a mask was THE best defense at the time, given that the wealthy were snatching them up in droves and wearing them whenever they flew.

To say otherwise is to be a history revisionists at best and a liberal propaganda vomit machine at worst.

The WHO was still saying there was no evidence that asymptomatic people could spread Covid in February and March 2020.

quote:

�it is possible that there may be individuals who are asymptomatic that shed virus, but we need more detailed studies around this to determine how often that is happening and if this is leading to secondary transmission�.

It wasn't until April 2nd that the WHO said there was evidence of asymptomatic transmission and it was shortly after that when Fauci recommended everyone wear masks.

https://www.who.int/news/item/29-06-2020-covidtimeline

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:11

Probably Magic: Oct 9, 2012; Looking cute, feeling cute.

selec posted:

Here�s another way to think about it:

In countries that handled the pandemic far better than we did, with much lower health impact, do they have a Fauci figure, do they have a functioning system?

Does China have a Fauci as recognizable as ours? Why or why not? Did this impact their ability to respond in a way that didn�t prioritize profit and political polarization?

China's probably not the best example since they also did a lot of image damage control and initially talked down the numbers, so PR debacle-wise, yeah, similar. In terms of expediency and efficiency of response, China is obviously ahead of America, though.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:11

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Lib and let die posted:

So we've totally moved on from the monkey pox / msm messaging mess too, then?

"moved on from"? Maybe I missed a post, but I don't remember you bringing these up when asked

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

How was he homophobic?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:13

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Kalit posted:

Which was written by an activist who later changed his tune and praised Fauci's response during that time, declaring him a hero.

Does an individual changing their mind invalidate the criticisms made? You may want to think of the implications answering this question has to victims of abuse.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:13

Judgy Fucker: Mar 24, 2006

Probably Magic posted:

In terms of expediency and efficiency of response, China is obviously ahead of America, though.

No doubt, but in response to Selec, I think that has little to do with the existence of a Fauci-type figure or not and much more to do with the ability to implement such staggeringly intense lockdowns which, legally speaking, would not be possible in the U.S.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:13

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Kalit posted:

"moved on from"? Maybe I missed a post, but I don't remember you bringing these up when asked

Sorry, I presumed Fauci's mismessaging of monkey pox as a gay disease stood on its own as an argument as part of the meta argument about whether he seems to be homophobic or not.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:14

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

The WHO was still saying there was no evidence that asymptomatic people could spread Covid in February and March 2020.

It wasn't until April 2nd that the WHO said there was evidence of asymptomatic transmission and it was shortly after that when Fauci recommended everyone wear masks.

https://www.who.int/news/item/29-06-2020-covidtimeline

Ok? The WHO is not the CDC. The WHO also spread the lies that covid wasn�t spread by aerosols. One can�t be so forgiving about the response given that masks were disappearing at this time. If one traveled during this time they would clearly recall the mask situation was dire starting in January.

At no point was there any data indicating there was harm in masking up. Instead there were only benefits. Fauci clearly stated folks SHOULD NOT mask up. I recall an interview about him talking about people touching their face as the reason. It was bullshit then and it�s bullshit now.

vvvvvv this is like pointing out �all rifles are AR :smug:

�. It ignores the argument by pointing out an inconsequential fact. D-Vox you should know better.

virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:19

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Fauci isn't even at the CDC. I swear to god, we're repeating bad arguments from three years ago now.

ecit: Who actually said what or has responsibility for what in the legal apparatus of the government is, in fact, important. You're not even attacking the people you're trying to attack.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:20

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

Does an individual changing their mind invalidate the criticisms made? You may want to think of the implications answering this question has to victims of abuse.

To give context to this situation, we're talking about someone who wrote an open letter about someone they had never met/do not personally know, then later stated that the person was a hero. In this situation, I absolutely do think that you need more than these retracted opinions to form a conclusion.

Lib and let die posted:

Sorry, I presumed Fauci's mismessaging of monkey pox as a gay disease stood on its own as an argument as part of the meta argument about whether he seems to be homophobic or not.

Fauci's mismessaging of monkey pox? When he's urging leaders to not create an anti-gay stigma with it? https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20220727/fauci-urges-fight-against-stigma-of-monkeypox

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:21

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

Discendo Vox posted:

Fauci isn't even at the CDC. I swear to god, we're repeating bad arguments from three years ago now.

No one is obliging you to respond. You can just check out of the conversation if it's impacting your mental state that badly.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:22

Probably Magic: Oct 9, 2012; Looking cute, feeling cute.

Kalit posted:

Fauci's mismessaging of monkey pox? When he's urging leaders to not create an anti-gay stigma with it? https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20220727/fauci-urges-fight-against-stigma-of-monkeypox

The emphasis on this seems to be less that monkey pox is not a "gay disease" but more "yes, it's a gay disease but we need to not stigmatize treatment for it." Similar to John McCain saying no, Obama's not a Muslim, he's a good man. I don't necessarily think Fauci's a homophobe, but this isn't credible evidence to me that he isn't.

Like, he should've said straight up, "This isn't something that affects only gay men," instead of flighty language about not doing stigma. Maybe he has outside of that venue, but he didn't in that article.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:42

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

selec posted:

Here�s another way to think about it:

In countries that handled the pandemic far better than we did, with much lower health impact, do they have a Fauci figure, do they have a functioning system?

Does China have a Fauci as recognizable as ours? Why or why not? Did this impact their ability to respond in a way that didn�t prioritize profit and political polarization?

the primary example I can think of to compare the effects of good/bad policy from the top would be the scandinavian countries: compare norway (reasonably competent) to finland (gave trump a run for his money in doing the wrong thing every time), since they're otherwise probably the most directly comparable countries with divergent covid strategies I can think of.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:44

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Probably Magic posted:

The emphasis on this seems to be less that monkey pox is not a "gay disease" but more "yes, it's a gay disease but we need to not stigmatize treatment for it." Similar to John McCain saying no, Obama's not a Muslim, he's a good man. I don't necessarily think Fauci's a homophobe, but this isn't credible evidence to me that he isn't.

Like, he should've said straight up, "This isn't something that affects only gay men," instead of flighty language about not doing stigma. Maybe he has outside of that venue, but he didn't in that article.

Following the link for the NPR interview where that quote came from, he does say things such as

quote:

"We've got to understand the modality of transmission, the manifestations, also the risk for people like children and pregnant women," he said. "There's really a profound risk."

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:47

kzin602: May 14, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Discendo Vox posted:

Fauci isn't even at the CDC. I swear to god, we're repeating bad arguments from three years ago now.

ecit: Who actually said what or has responsibility for what in the legal apparatus of the government is, in fact, important. You're not even attacking the people you're trying to attack.

It's easier to drag someone than acknowledge there's a confluence of conservatives and money devoted to tearing down the federal government by kneecapping any attempt to serve the public, be it disease control, education or whatever.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:49

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Discendo Vox posted:

Fauci isn't even at the CDC. I swear to god, we're repeating bad arguments from three years ago now.

ecit: Who actually said what or has responsibility for what in the legal apparatus of the government is, in fact, important. You're not even attacking the people you're trying to attack.

D-Vox, Please follow rule 1.B.1

quote:

When replying, respond only to what the poster said. Doing otherwise leads to posters talking past each other.

Here is what I said if you need a reminder:

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

At no point was there any data indicating there was harm in masking up. Instead there were only benefits. Fauci clearly stated folks SHOULD NOT mask up. I recall an interview about him talking about people touching their face as the reason. It was bullshit then and it�s bullshit now.

I didn�t say Fauci was part of the CDC. That was your own interpretation. Please respond to arguments I actually made.

Thank you.

kzin602 posted:

It's easier to drag someone than acknowledge there's a confluence of conservatives and money devoted to tearing down the federal government by kneecapping any attempt to serve the public, be it disease control, education or whatever.

If republicans have valid criticisms (even if made in bad faith) are those criticism suddenly invalid?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:53

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

The WHO was still saying there was no evidence that asymptomatic people could spread Covid in February and March 2020.

It wasn't until April 2nd that the WHO said there was evidence of asymptomatic transmission and it was shortly after that when Fauci recommended everyone wear masks.

https://www.who.int/news/item/29-06-2020-covidtimeline

Correct, both the WHO and CDC botched it while ignoring early reports of asymptomatic transmission and knowledge from the Chinese.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 19:58

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

This is such an incredibly gross mischaracterization of what I stated. Please either point out where is said Trump had zero responsibility for the covid deaths or apologize for making up posting arguments in your brain.

I responded directly to you, in a post you didn't respond to. I accurately reflect your position in that post - that you consider Fauci to be "worse than trump" to use a direct quote. Feel free to try to respond to that if you wish. How much of Trump's intentional and malicious mishandling of COVID you deny or minimize to reach that conclusion is not something I've opined on.

It does not help your point that Fauci was unwittingly wrong for two months and forthrightly admitting error and reversing the recommendation, when comparing it against Trump's history of being intentionally wrong for two years on that subject and advocating for people to not wear masks after the science was clear. That's the sort of fact that is so obviously not helping your case that you should use as a barometer of "perhaps I need to reevaluate my conclusion" if you're reaching for it.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:04

tristeham: Jul 31, 2022

it's strange that he's retiring, he had the opportunity to mishandle a third pandemic.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:04

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

The primary between Nadler and Maloney is tomorrow. After their districts were merged and moved slightly towards Manhattan after redistricting, they were forced to face off.

One thing that is throwing the race into uncertainty: A large portion of the voters in the district are in the Hamptons for the summer, didn't request a mail-in ballot, and don't want to come back just to vote in-person. They could make the difference, especially when primaries are already so low turnout.

I am 99% sure that someone from the NYT is doing this as a troll. The quotes they get are too perfect and the concept of the article itself is basically a satire of Manhattan. The surprise cameo from Sarah Jessica Parker at the end seals it for me.

https://twitter.com/npfandos/status/1561066218722934788

quote:

Where Are All the Manhattan Voters in August? Try the Hamptons.

AMAGANSETT, N.Y. � In the lush town green here one recent morning, waiting to get her nails done, sat just the kind of Manhattan Democrat whose coveted vote could tip the balance in Tuesday�s blockbuster primary involving two lions of Congress, Jerrold Nadler and Carolyn Maloney.

Only the woman in question, Judith Segall, said she was in absolutely no rush to leave this exclusive bastion of sand dunes, $10 heirloom tomatoes and seasonal city transplants, and return to her Upper East Side home.

�I�m not coming in to vote. That�s the problem: Nobody here is going to come in just to vote,� said Ms. Segall, a retired accountant with a city accent who spends her summers out here, and likes Mr. Nadler. �It�s insane. What�s this voting in August?�

New York City may be a center of the political universe this summer, as Mr. Nadler and Ms. Maloney, two powerful longtime allies, face off in a newly reconfigured Manhattan district, and a dozen other Democrats scramble to claim a rare open seat connecting Lower Manhattan and Brownstone Brooklyn.

But in a twist befitting two of the wealthiest districts in the United States, the races could well be won or lost miles outside the city, in places like the Hudson Valley, the Berkshires and, above all, the sandy coast of eastern Long Island, where otherwise reliable voters like Ms. Segall decamp in droves each August to spend the final weeks of summer in second homes and vacation rentals.

That reality has prompted an unusual and expensive shadow campaign � complete with beach-themed mailers, sophisticated geolocation tracking for tailored ads targeting second homes and at least one Hamptons swing by Ms. Maloney � to see who can prod more of their would-be supporters off their beach chairs and back to the city, or at least the local post office.

With low turnout predicted, political operatives say as few as a thousand lost votes could be the difference between a narrow victory and a loss.

The exodus is most glaring in the 12th District, where Mr. Nadler and Ms. Maloney were drawn together after three decades serving side by side and are now fighting (alongside a third candidate, Suraj Patel) over uptown voters who like them both.

Some 35,000 Democrats have received mail-in ballots there so far, according to the New York City Board of Elections, a large proportion of them people over 65, and many Upper East and West Siders who flee their apartments when the weather warms. By comparison, the board said that just 7,500 mail-in ballots were distributed for all of Manhattan during the 2018 midterm primaries, which were held in June.

Another 21,000 Democrats have received absentee ballots for the primary in the neighboring 10th District, far more than any other district but the 12th. The 10th includes wealthy areas like Greenwich Village, Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights � as well as Orthodox Jewish communities in Borough Park � whose residents also tend to skip town.

�The last two weeks of August, this is actually where many people are,� said Jon Reinish, a Democratic political strategist, who is among a torrent of temporary city transplants who have slipped away to the Hudson Valley town of Rhinebeck.

He had a word of advice to Democratic vote hunters, particularly Ms. Maloney, whose East Side base even relocates some of its favorite restaurants out to Long Island for �the season.�

�As opposed to pounding the pavement around the 86th Street and Lexington Avenue subway stop, Carolyn Maloney may be better served campaigning outside the entrance to Sagg Main Beach or along Jobs Lane in Southampton,� he said, only partially in jest.

Hamptonites are already accustomed to national politicians descending each summer for ritzy fund-raisers and seafood raw bars: Vice President Kamala Harris; Beto O�Rourke, a Texas Democratic candidate for governor; and New York�s candidates for governor were all here recently. But given the timing of the Aug. 23 congressional primaries, they appear to be relishing their moment of heightened electoral influence.

�If they are serious about wanting to be re-elected, they should be out here,� said Gordon Herr, the chairman of the Southampton Town Democratic Committee and a former city resident who moved out east full time 16 years ago. He said many city residents he�s spoken to �are very conflicted� over who to vote for and could use the extra nudge.

New York almost never holds elections in August. But that changed this year after the state�s highest court tossed out newly drawn maps favoring Democrats as unconstitutional, and a rural judge decided to split that state�s primary calendar in two to allow time for a court-appointed expert to draw new, neutral lines.

The result put Mr. Nadler and Ms. Maloney on a collision course and opened a fresh seat next door; it also means New Yorkers are being asked to go to the polls twice in two months.

Voters who will be in the city on Election Day undoubtedly remain the majority, and the campaigns� chief focus. But tracking those headed outside New York has been an uncommonly high priority, particularly for Mr. Nadler and Ms. Maloney.

How Times reporters cover politics. We rely on our journalists to be independent observers. So while Times staff members may vote, they are not allowed to endorse or campaign for candidates or political causes. This includes participating in marches or rallies in support of a movement or giving money to, or raising money for, any political candidate or election cause.

Learn more about our process.
Mr. Nadler�s campaign sent partially filled-out absentee ballot applications to 50,000 potential supporters earlier this summer anticipating their travel, and is now using digital geolocation data to serve advertisements to likely voters that it can see are in the Hamptons or the Berkshires, specifically reminding them to drop the documents in the mail before it�s too late.

Another glossy campaign mailer featured an Atlantic Ocean beach: �Away on August 23rd?� it read. �Don�t miss your chance to vote for Jerry Nadler.�

�It�s something that we worried about from the beginning,� said Mark Guma, Mr. Nadler�s lead strategist, who estimated that as many as a fourth of all votes in the race might be cast by mail.

The undertaking is not cheap. The campaign reported paying Mr. Guma�s firm $270,000 to date for the mail program and other services.

Ms. Maloney�s campaign has made a similarly large investment and has deputized local supporters to help track down summer voters to drop absentee ballot applications and other campaign literature at their second homes. (Both campaigns deemed city-style canvassers at exurban farmers� markets and beaches inefficient.)

In late July, Ms. Maloney made the trip to work the Montauk Highway herself, attending at least one fund-raiser, a meet-and-greet at the home of a supporter, and a Q. and A. at the Hampton Synagogue, a lively forum for politicians each summer.

�It�s a huge challenge,� Ms. Maloney said, adding that she was �absolutely� concerned about getting her supporters to the polls. �A lot of voters are out there. I hope they vote.�

In some of the leafy villages of the Hamptons this past week, the results appeared to be mixed. Many voters said they planned to head back into the city for early voting or Primary Day.

As he lounged on a bench with an iced coffee in Southampton, one of them, John Lewin, said he�d gotten multiple phone calls from Mr. Nadler�s campaign reminding him to vote and had firm plans to return to his home on the Upper West Side on Primary Day.

�I like going physically � old school,� said Mr. Lewin, a lawyer.

He conceded the two incumbents were �probably not� that different, but Mr. Nadler had his vote. �It�s like me going to Zabar�s,� he said. �I know where everything is. That�s Jerry Nadler.�

But in many cases, the campaigns have struggled to be heard over the pleasures of vacation: tennis lessons, swimming, long hikes in the Catskill and Berkshire mountains, meals to be cooked.

�There�s this weird thing out here, everyone�s doing a million things to squeeze everything in that feels good right now after the pandemic,� said Julie Dermer, a Manhattan fitness instructor who relocates to the Hamptons each summer to teach. �They�re not ready to work for such a cause right now or a person.�

Ms. Dermer put herself in that camp, and initially said she was not sure she would vote next week (though later followed up to say she would). She said she was open to either candidate. �Certainly if I�m ever near the voting booth, I�ll go,� she said.

Mr. Patel�s campaign has made its own effort to chase absentee voters, even mailing first-class letters to registered voters overseas. But with a message of generational change, Mr. Patel, 38, is betting on younger voters less likely to own a second home to deliver him an upset in the primary. He has spent the final days of the campaigning trolling around Manhattan in an ice cream truck.

His advisers said there were signs in early voting data that showed the mail-in vote may make up a smaller proportion of the electorate than first anticipated, though it may be too early to tell. As of midweek, around 12,000 absentee ballots had been returned in the 12th District and roughly 4,800 in the 10th District. Each race could end up with between 60,000 and 80,000 or more votes.

In some cases, voters have taken it upon themselves to try to beat the summer apathy.

One Lower Manhattanite in the 10th District, a business owner and actress who often spends summers in the Hamptons or abroad, said she and her family would vote in person. But she was worried others might tune the races out given the unusual election date and profusion of candidates.

�There is no doubt confusion,� said the actress, Sarah Jessica Parker. �I will start encouraging all I know to make sure they have their ducks in a row.�

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:06

Quorum: Sep 24, 2014; REMIND ME AGAIN HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE?

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

The primary between Nadler and Maloney is tomorrow. After their districts were merged and moved slightly towards Manhattan after redistricting, they were forced to face off.

One thing that is throwing the race into uncertainty: A large portion of the voters in the district are in the Hamptons for the summer, didn't request a mail-in ballot, and don't want to come back just to vote in-person. They could make the difference, especially when primaries are already so low turnout.

I am 99% sure that someone from the NYT is doing this as a troll. The quotes they get are too perfect and the concept of the article itself is basically a satire of Manhattan. The surprise cameo from Sarah Jessica Parker at the end seals it for me.

https://twitter.com/npfandos/status/1561066218722934788

This is the journalistic equivalent of the Stan Lee cameo in the midcredits scene of a Marvel movie. I'm pretty sure this isn't secretly an Onion article, but it's impossible to be completely sure.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:10

Keyser_Soze: May 5, 2009; Pillbug

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

That single donation is more than every donation to the Biden campaign and the DNC in the 2020 primary and general election combined.

It also blows away the previous record for largest political donation of any kind by about 6x.

Who is this Barre Seid guy (appears to have made a fortune from the Tripp Surge Protector company and is a consistent Koch stooge) and why are there always more of these ghouls and why are they always worse!?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:17

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

All that money, and this guy could think of nothing better to do with it than burn it on politicians.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:19

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

evilweasel posted:

I responded directly to you, in a post you didn't respond to. I accurately reflect your position in that post - that you consider Fauci to be "worse than trump" to use a direct quote.

Let�s follow what was said then:

evilweasel posted:

i think it's not terribly helpful to repeat brazen republican propaganda with a reskinned "but from the left" gloss of paint that tries to justify trump support or trying to "both-sides" it to justify tacit trump support from rose twitter.

I am not, nor have I ever been part of rose Twitter or any Twitter. My feelings towards Twitter users are well known: you can�t be a leftists and post on Twitter.

I�m also not reskinning some performative �both-sides� as it is all the same side: capitalists.

Condemning Fauci doesn�t mean praise of Trump nor provide him an out. It means Fauci and Trump failed the American people during covid.

quote:

parroting right-wing poo poo about trying to tear him down for trying to do things to justify trump, well, not isn't great.

Please point out where I �justify Trump� in that post.

Trump fumbled the covid response poorly it killed close to a half a million Americans. However a large population of the public did not trust Trump. They did trust Fauci. Fauci�s well documented fumbling during crucial periods meant that people were not masking up and staying home when they should have.

Again, debate what I said, not what you made up.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:24

kzin602: May 14, 2007; Grimey Drawer

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

D-Vox, Please follow rule 1.B.1

Here is what I said if you need a reminder:

If republicans have valid criticisms (even if made in bad faith) are those criticism suddenly invalid?

They were not valid in the first place. If they are criticing the efficacy of masks or 6foot spacing it's not in service of having better standards or based on any science, if their argument lined up with actual science it was only a coincidence or cherrypicked it's in the service of creating an environment of government dysfunction.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:27

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Sodomy Hussein posted:

All that money, and this guy could think of nothing better to do with it than burn it on politicians.

Hey, that's not fair. He also has a charity that supports the Chicago Opera and donates to liberal arts colleges that he contributed $3.5 million (or roughly 2% of the amount he gave to the political group) to!

Only roughly 98% of his donations went to this new political group.

Keyser_Soze posted:

Who is this Barre Seid guy (appears to have made a fortune from the Tripp Surge Protector company and is a consistent Koch stooge) and why are there always more of these ghouls and why are they always worse!?

I legitimately knew nothing about him before today except that he famously donated a bunch of money to different colleges (including allegedly a $20 million to George Mason University with the only condition being that they rename their law school after Antonin Scalia, lol).

He is a relatively low profile billionaire who owns a surge protector company and has given a bunch of money to conservative causes and charity before, but this is the first time he has given a truly massive amount (and all in a single donation). Not clear why he only did so now.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:28

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

Sodomy Hussein posted:

All that money, and this guy could think of nothing better to do with it than burn it on politicians.

It's not a bad ROI. Usually doesn't take billions. Few hundred thousand-ish and you got yourself a pocket senator.

Dropping a cool billion+ sounds like ideological commitment to skull loving the nation, not just normal political profit seeking.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:29

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# ? May 24, 2024 23:04

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Yinlock posted:

Anti-lockdown sentiment grew chiefly because at the tiniest, wispiest dip in infection rate politicians would immediately try to open 'er up again only for things to get worse. This pattern happened multiple times which led to the impression that lockdown wasn't working.

After they felt safe the rich were just looking for a politically tenable way to open everything up again and the hardcore anti-maskers were useful tools in that regard. The rate of infection and death(of poors) never mattered to them one bit.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Anti-lockdown sentiment was strong from the beginning, because a lot of people have very understandable reasons to dislike having basically the entire in-person service industry shut down, not to mention social and entertainment venues of all kinds. The drive to "open 'er up" wasn't just the whim of politicians, it was the result of recognizing that the voters were not very happy with lockdowns.

Of course, it got worse over time, but that's no surprise. Even among the people who were okay with lockdowns, it was under the understanding that they were extremely temporary measures. When the pandemic dragged on for months and eventually years, it's no wonder that people lost patience with it. Only the gooniest of Americans were okay with long-term lockdown.

The rich were hardly the only people who wanted lockdowns ended. After all, wealthy people weren't exactly the worst affected. Sure, many businesses were significantly hampered, but the billionaires had plenty of passive income, and generally had the ability to hire people to do services for them on a personal basis. If the corner store, the hairdresser, and the local gym are shut down, billionaires aren't going to care, they can hire their own personal hairdresser and build their own private gym. And even putting the millionaires and billionaires aside to focus on the working classes, six figgie white collar types were much more likely to be able to do remote work from home and get everything delivered, while blue collar work tends to have to be done in person.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:29

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

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