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Part of the problem is that he tried to be a "martial arts guy" when that was way beyond his capabilities. And then he was in WCW, with much better guys, who aren't going to make him look good because he's not a star like he was in Mexico. I liked him much better as an announcer, in Lucha Underground. Because if he's talking, that means Matt Stryker probably isn't talking.
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Aug 24, 2022 20:29
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What game is Grampa Detwiller complaining about having thirty people on?
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Aug 24, 2022 21:02
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Halloween Jack posted:Part of the problem is that he tried to be a "martial arts guy" when that was way beyond his capabilities. And then he was in WCW, with much better guys, who aren't going to make him look good because he's not a star like he was in Mexico. Matt Stryker, comma, the reason I can't wholeheartedly recommend Lucha Underground.
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Aug 24, 2022 22:54
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Mors Rattus posted:Matt Stryker, comma, the reason I can't wholeheartedly recommend Lucha Underground. God drat Matt Stryker sucks. Thanks for making me remember that dork 
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Aug 25, 2022 02:14
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god matt stryker /does/ suck but vampiro was the far worse commentator on that show. just truly bad commentary all around
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Aug 25, 2022 02:22
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Nea posted:god matt stryker /does/ suck but vampiro was the far worse commentator on that show. just truly bad commentary all around Yeah, the little bit of LU I watched (season 1 I think?) the commentary was dire all around. Stryker knows the names of all the moves and he's enthusiastic but god I just want to slap him every time he opens his mouth. Vampiro said "Bro" a lot I think? And was constantly baffled by what was happening. LU was like a fever dream of a wrestling show. Also the set reminded me of Wrestling Society X which is a show I don't think many people remember because lol why on earth would you?
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Aug 25, 2022 04:44
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The Bakers had those tiers on their last Kickstarter, too, by the way. It's primarily because Magpie's Avatar KS made ten million dollars (and they didn't bother to mention the Bakers or Apocalypse World on their KS page). These tiers are a voluntary way for people who make their livings building off of the Bakers' work to pay it back to them, if they can afford to.
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Aug 25, 2022 06:17
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Yeah, considering the effect PbtA has had on role-playing games and some designers/companies livelihoods, an entirely voluntary request for a little financial recognition is absolutely deserved on their part.
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Aug 25, 2022 06:33
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Blind Azathoth posted:The Bakers had those tiers on their last Kickstarter, too, by the way. It's primarily because Magpie's Avatar KS made ten million dollars (and they didn't bother to mention the Bakers or Apocalypse World on their KS page). It reminds me a bit of discussions in some open source development circles, where people are generally happy to provide things for others to use, but when somebody else makes oodles of money off of it, I also get that you wonder if you perhaps could get a bit more than just a nod (if that), return. I think it’s a fairly understandable reaction.
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Aug 25, 2022 11:41
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joylessdivision posted:Yeah, the little bit of LU I watched (season 1 I think?) the commentary was dire all around. Stryker was also modern day JR levels of horny about the female wrestlers. Just gross. Vampiro might have been too but I try to think of Vampiro as little as possible.
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Aug 25, 2022 17:13
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Dawgstar posted:Stryker was also modern day JR levels of horny about the female wrestlers. Just gross. Vampiro might have been too but I try to think of Vampiro as little as possible. Vampiro did two cool things the entirety of Lucha Underground: freaking out and running into the crowd when Angelico did that dive off the office into the ring and the Cero Miedo match with Pentagon. Everything else was god awful.
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Aug 25, 2022 17:24
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Yeah. That match was incredible, though it may have been because I hadn't seen much wrestling and esp much indie wrestling before so I was totally unprepared for people to start pulling out light tubes and freaked out haha
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Aug 25, 2022 17:31
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I’m generally okay with Vampiro being a lovely commentator because it seems to me it’s mostly because dude is hella concussed all the time. Which, y’know, I feel bad for him about.
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Aug 25, 2022 18:11
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Did someone post receipts for the thing about Paizo saying 4E was good actually on the run up to 2E? I swear they were posted earlier in this thread but my search skills are failing.
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Aug 25, 2022 19:03
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Tsilkani posted:Yeah, considering the effect PbtA has had on role-playing games and some designers/companies livelihoods, an entirely voluntary request for a little financial recognition is absolutely deserved on their part. When did “PbtA” become a thing anyway? Apocalypse World wasn’t free and didn’t represent itself as a general system.
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Aug 25, 2022 19:06
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Splicer posted:Did someone post receipts for the thing about Paizo saying 4E was good actually on the run up to 2E? I swear they were posted earlier in this thread but my search skills are failing.
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Aug 25, 2022 19:06
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hyphz posted:When did “PbtA” become a thing anyway? Apocalypse World wasn’t free and didn’t represent itself as a general system. Vincent seems like a nice person, and he told people it was okay. You have to ask him specifically to use his words, but there's nothing legally stopping people from using the mechanics. Having a designer say "Please use my mechanics" is a strong incentive to do so, especially back in 2010 before every game had an SRD.
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Aug 25, 2022 19:09
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Thanks (sincerely, saving this for another thing) but I'm looking for the thing where they said it was ahead of its time in mechanics.
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Aug 25, 2022 19:27
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Dawgstar posted:What game is Grampa Detwiller complaining about having thirty people on? I don't think any in general, probably just him being crotchety from his secluded, island manor. It might have been brought on by yet another company running themselves into the ground and making KS ponzi schemes to stay afloat but I think it's just him commenting unbidden.
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Aug 25, 2022 20:12
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CitizenKeen posted:Vincent seems like a nice person, and he told people it was okay. You have to ask him specifically to use his words, but there's nothing legally stopping people from using the mechanics. Having a designer say "Please use my mechanics" is a strong incentive to do so, especially back in 2010 before every game had an SRD. IANAL, so what is the deal with copyrighting mechanics? If I publish a game that uses 6 attributes and resolve ability checks with a d20 roll (and basically 5e with serial numbers filed off), even if I don't cite OGL, I don't think WotC can go after me on copyright, right?
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Aug 25, 2022 21:31
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No, mechanics can’t be copyrighted. As long as you have different art and rewrite the rules you can 100% publish the same rpgs/board games. You can trademark terms like tapping in MtG so people just use a different term like Exhaust.
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Aug 25, 2022 21:35
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Finster Dexter posted:IANAL, so what is the deal with copyrighting mechanics? If I publish a game that uses 6 attributes and resolve ability checks with a d20 roll (and basically 5e with serial numbers filed off), even if I don't cite OGL, I don't think WotC can go after me on copyright, right? Also not a lawyer, but as a long-time industry watcher and occasional participant, my understanding is that this is right. (A company I worked with even had something come up with someone ripping off their game at some point, so we did some research on this.) You can't copyright mechanics, but you can copyright trade dress (which can include things like layout and look and feel if you can make the case it might create the impression something is associated with your product when it isn't) and you can copyright specific ideas for creatures, names of things, etc. This is why you see people copying D&D mechanics but not D&D unique creatures like beholders (until some of them made it into the OGL). So if you reskin D&D 4E entirely, say, you are likely in the clear, even if you literally just reskin everything. But if you do it in a way that might make people confuse it for an official D&D 4E product, you can be in trouble. Of course, unless it's really open and shut you still likely have to convince a judge and argue the case in court, which gets really expensive, so there's an incentive for people not to provoke the big wealthy companies too much even if they're technically legally in the right. Never mind that if you can't create confusion, it's not entirely clear why you'd want to just straight-up reskin D&D, since presumably the people who like it are already playing the real thing. Again, this is my broad-level understanding as a non-lawyer. But the value of OGL-type stuff and permission is virtually always a) it makes it unlikely you'll have to fight a lawsuit and b) it lets you use some of the technical language and advertise the link.
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Aug 25, 2022 21:39
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Bottom Liner posted:No, mechanics can’t be copyrighted. As long as you have different art and rewrite the rules you can 100% publish the same rpgs/board games. You can trademark terms like tapping in MtG so people just use a different term like Exhaust. This one is slightly weird! MTG got a patent on the "trading card game" invention, which included a bunch of details, including tapping. Patents don't last as long as copyrights, so it's expired and is basically trivia now, and you're right that as it currently stands you can use the thing without problems as long as you rename it. But for a while a bunch of smaller TCGs were avoiding using the mechanic at all because no one really wanted to fight WOTC over the patent. I don't remember the actual details of why people thought they could make TCGs without tapping without having a problem, or why some companies flaunted it (which I think some of the later ones did), but there were definitely some companies that used suboptimal solutions to avoid having to officially suggest tapping - the My Little Pony CCG is one that I worked on that did that. It officially called for "exhaustion counters" to mark a similar status, but literally everyone just tapped the cards in actual play. My guess would be that because the patent identified a bunch of specific characteristics of trading card games, people figured they'd be okay if they didn't copy all the characteristics. This is presumably why a bunch of non-WOTC TCGs made sure not to officially turn cards sideways to indicate expended status, and why a bunch of non-TCGs like FFG's Living Card Games didn't have any problem using a similar status and just renaming it. But that patent (and presumably a lot of designers being overcautious around it to avoid hiring lawyers or risking suit) is a big reason that so much weird stuff happened around tapping specifically, since of course you can generally copy a mechanic without renaming it so long as the name is pretty generic - see how many different games can call the same mechanic "exhaust" without any issue, use of "hit points," etc.
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Aug 25, 2022 21:51
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Finster Dexter posted:IANAL, so what is the deal with copyrighting mechanics? If I publish a game that uses 6 attributes and resolve ability checks with a d20 roll (and basically 5e with serial numbers filed off), even if I don't cite OGL, I don't think WotC can go after me on copyright, right? You basically just said "so what if the late 70s/early 80s game design scene?". Seriously check out like Bunnies and Burrows or Fantasy Wargaming or Tunnels and Trolls sometime. It's honestly crazy how many games back then had the mission statement of "D&D sucks and we can do better. Anyway you have these six stats ranging from 3-18..."
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Aug 25, 2022 21:52
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Funny how much of the scene that still describes today
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Aug 25, 2022 22:08
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It should also be noted, again, that the Bakers aren't claiming a copyright on the mechanics, are not taking any legal action, and are not even threatening anyone. They have put up an option to pay them if you want to as thanks for using their work. It is the least demanding possible way to do anything even slightly like it.
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Aug 25, 2022 23:03
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That was the kind of thing I meant. I know Vincent encouraged others to use the mechanics but where did the “Powered By The Apocalypse” brand come from?
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Aug 25, 2022 23:06
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http://apocalypse-world.com/pbta/policy It's not a brand so much as it's just people being inspired by Apocalypse World's mechanics and asking for permission to say it was inspired through the use of a logo/acknowledgement. You can also choose not to do that and they say that's perfectly fine. There is no singular proponent or company pushing it forward, there was just a burst of inspiration that proliferated the seeds far enough to gain interest and recognition.
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Aug 26, 2022 00:01
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No matter how much it gets explained, people still frequently conflate trademark with copyright. Trade dress falls under trademark laws. Original artwork is copyright. They're both forms of legally protected IP, but they are treated quite differently by the law, and they have their own pitfalls when it comes to whether or how you can re-use or make derivative works of them. You can't make products that look & feel like D&D products even if the content is a bunch of recipes for octopus. That'd be trademark infringement. You can't copy & paste a block of description about goblins from a D&D book and put it in your product, even though goblins existed before D&D. That'd be copyright infringement. You can lift the mechanics of a game in part or in whole and write your own descriptions and add your own art. That's using an "invention" that is in the public domain. You can excerpt part of a D&D book's description about goblins in order to critique it, or share it in a classroom as part of lesson about modern folklore. That's fair use. If you're making a roleplaying game you pretty much don't have to worry about whether other games used similar or identical mechanical structures, but you should write all the rules yourself. That'll protect you completely from legal bother.
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Aug 26, 2022 00:58
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hyphz posted:That was the kind of thing I meant. I know Vincent encouraged others to use the mechanics but where did the “Powered By The Apocalypse” brand come from? Its status as an influential system/design philosophy actually started before Apocalypse World was even published. Playtesters and others who saw early drafts apparently began working on early hacks almost immediately. The first edition of AW has a great chapter on hacking the game, including breaking down the structure of moves and offering up a variety of moves that other writers have put together for their forthcoming hacks (none of which ever actually got published, AFAIK). One of them is even one of Vincent's, for an Iron Age Celtic fantasy game he never made -- so he started hacking his own game before the book was finished. Dungeon World was one of the first hacks published; an early beta version of it was distributed in print in 2011, and the Kickstarter came the following year, along with the crowdfunding of Monsterhearts and the release of Monster of the Week. Those three were all pretty solid successes, for the time (with DW the most profitable of the lot), and they helped inspire dozens of early hacks. It helped that many of the early PbtA games were partially developed openly on the Apocalypse World forums, so prospective hackers got a good look at how other folks went about it, and lots of ideas were tossed around that led to folks making their own games.
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Aug 26, 2022 02:45
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In conclusion : death to copyright. In other news Battlescribe stopped being available because the app owners credit card stopped working and he needed the cash. The unpaid volunteers are telling Reddit to stop using it but can’t offer an alternative because Gdubs will drop on them like a Titan from orbit if there’s money involved.
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Aug 26, 2022 03:37
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what is battlescribe?
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Aug 26, 2022 03:42
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Subjunctive posted:what is battlescribe? Army building app. People would develop the files so you could use it for 40K, Malifaux, whatever.
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Aug 26, 2022 04:07
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It's also AFAIK basically required to play 40k given that the official app is hot garbage that won't let you build legal lists and or lets you build illegal lists. The official GW supported tournaments in the US use and rely on it lol.
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Aug 26, 2022 04:29
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Or you could use a paper and a pencil like our forefathers did.
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Aug 26, 2022 05:03
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Avery Adler has never won an award https://twitter.com/lackingceremony/status/1562964824899735552
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Aug 26, 2022 08:00
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I only just learned about Battlescribe, but it immediately makes me think again of how badly Lone Wolf Development (the Army Builder, Realm Works, Hero Lab, etc people) endlessly hosed up their decade-plus lead in multiple categories of gaming app.
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Aug 26, 2022 08:55
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I honestly am thankful that apps for aos and malifaux are functional, since battlescribe have been giving me a lot of trouble recently.
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Aug 26, 2022 09:05
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What a paradise we'd live in if every wargame had the magic that is Army by Corvus Belli for Infinity. They released a two faction battle pack box during Gencon and had Army updated with the new units within hours but there were some typos. Those got fixed within 24 hours.
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Aug 26, 2022 09:39
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Ultiville posted:
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