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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This one actually makes sense to me. If you're going to fail, better to fail early. Don't spend a ton of effort pursuing a goal before deciding that actually you're not going to do it. Yeah but if it's happening two weeks in then either something went really wrong in planning those goals (in which case that should be brought up and discussed in the next planning process, because you really don't want it to be a regular thing), or something significantly new was learned in those two weeks (in which case dropping something should be done as part of a discussion of that new information with the team, not unilaterally. Also there should be a discussion on whether this could have been identified during the planning process instead of immediately afterwards next time).
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Aug 25, 2022 17:32
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Although to give the benefit of the doubt, if the PO talked with their counterpart on other teams and identified that the other team's work depending on that feature was the literal lowest priority objective for that team, then downprioritizing it to focus on the stuff that other teams are more likely to actually need this quarter makes sense. And if your working relationship has already deteriorated to the point where taking something off the board entirely is the only way they can stop you from working on something...
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Aug 25, 2022 17:36
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barkbell posted:The services and things we've committed are the actual and official goals. Maybe I just need to learn how to better communicate the value and importance of the work needed to achieve those goals. This is something I keep a close eye on. Very often a high priority goal fails because it depends on work that isn't identified as high priority. I find it helps to build a dependency graph and show it to whoever is in charge of prioritizing things, or even tagging the dependencies with the goal in Jira. These things aren't necessarily obvious or even visible even to people who spend all their time there.
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Aug 25, 2022 17:39
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Ensign Expendable posted:This is something I keep a close eye on. Very often a high priority goal fails because it depends on work that isn't identified as high priority. I find it helps to build a dependency graph and show it to whoever is in charge of prioritizing things, or even tagging the dependencies with the goal in Jira. These things aren't necessarily obvious or even visible even to people who spend all their time there. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll investigate how to effectively make and present something like that. Jabor posted:Although to give the benefit of the doubt, if the PO talked with their counterpart on other teams and identified that the other team's work depending on that feature was the literal lowest priority objective for that team, then downprioritizing it to focus on the stuff that other teams are more likely to actually need this quarter makes sense. And if your working relationship has already deteriorated to the point where taking something off the board entirely is the only way they can stop you from working on something... This was work that we planned to tackle at the end of the quarter. We started on some of it because we were blocked on our other major initiatives. She was in tears in a meeting with myself and my manager about that work saying she'd rather the whole team take a whole 2 week of pto than do any work in regards to that goal. I am open to the idea that I'm totally doing something wrong here but I'm not convinced. barkbell fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Aug 25, 2022 |
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Aug 25, 2022 17:41
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barkbell posted:This was work that we planned to tackle at the end of the quarter. We started on some of it because we were blocked on our other major initiatives. She was in tears in a meeting with myself and my manager about that work saying she'd rather the whole team take a whole 2 week of pto than do any work in regards to that goal. I am open to the idea that I'm totally doing something wrong here but I'm not convinced. This is the first mention of your manager. I've been wonder where they were/what you've told them about this/what they think about this. Because this is very much their issue to deal with.
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Aug 25, 2022 17:54
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barkbell posted:This was work that we planned to tackle at the end of the quarter. We started on some of it because we were blocked on our other major initiatives. She was in tears in a meeting with myself and my manager about that work saying she'd rather the whole team take a whole 2 week of pto than do any work in regards to that goal. I am open to the idea that I'm totally doing something wrong here but I'm not convinced. I'll be honest here - that sounds like someone who has worked with engineers before. You really got "blocked" on literally everything to the point where you were working on the absolutely lowest-priority objective in the first two weeks of the quarter? A lot of engineers can feel very productive "making progress" on a task that's largely inconsequential while letting the important work slip, because pushing the important work forwards involves talking to people and actually resolving blockers, which is much less fun than just knuckling down and punching out code. And yeah, if that's the situation, telling them to literally do nothing at all instead of that low-priority work is sometimes what it takes to make them realize that hey, actually there are ways we could be making progress on the actual important things.
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Aug 25, 2022 17:59
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Motronic posted:This is the first mention of your manager. I've been wonder where they were/what you've told them about this/what they think about this. Because this is very much their issue to deal with. They also have the same concerns, and their solution is to do some meetings to define the work since I have the best context into our highest-priority stuff which is pretty technical and cross-team. I will use the dependency graph idea from above to hopefully help with these. Jabor posted:I'll be honest here - that sounds like someone who has worked with engineers before. You really got "blocked" on literally everything to the point where you were working on the absolutely lowest-priority objective in the first two weeks of the quarter? When I looked at the board after that meeting, and about 20% of the work we were doing related to the low-priority goal. We weren't blocked from moving forward on other things for an actual 2 weeks, it was just a hyperbole they said. We did have extra bandwidth though which is why people picked up some work relating to the low-priority goal. I think only 2 devs on a team of 6 picked up work relating to that. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Thanks for everyone's input. I have some good ideas to help with communication and things to keep in mind to keep myself in check. barkbell fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Aug 25, 2022 |
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Aug 25, 2022 18:13
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The more I hear, the more and more reasonable your PO sounds, lol. Fully one third of the team working on the "if we somehow finish every other objective ahead of schedule we can take a look at this" filler instead of anything important, we're less than two weeks into the quarter, and I'm apparently the only one that cares about how the quarter as a whole is going to go? I'd probably be in tears at that point too. Why weren't the higher-priority objectives suitable to be worked on? If they were blocked, what were they blocked on? Should work have been put into resolving those blockers instead? If they were all taken by other engineers on the team, should those tasks have been subdivided so that they could be meaningfully worked on by more engineers at the same time?
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Aug 25, 2022 18:26
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There's also how people want the work to go, which is generally linearly through the priority list. And how the work actually goes, which includes human things like mental effort involved in a ticket vs current capacity. Or wanting to fill a specified period of time before a meeting or before EoD instead of picking up a large task. Or someone individually being upset enough about a low priority issue that they pick it up despite being not the highest priority issue in the queue. Typically the concern you need to address is whether the prioritized work is getting done. Not whether non-prioritized work is getting done. If there's an issue in getting through the planned work, it needs to be addressed. Otherwise you're meeting or ahead of schedules, so there shouldn't be an issue.
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Aug 25, 2022 18:29
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barkbell posted:Can someone explain to me what a product owner does? A PO is meant to be the bridge between the customer and the developers. They shield the developers from the customer and vice versa. Often they take a direct hand in writing and prioritizing tickets, but that's not a sure thing. When they do they might or might not need assistance from the tech lead, depending upon how technical they themselves are. A really great PO is willing to take responsibility for non-technical project decisions, when input from either the customer or management is lacking or not definitive.
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Aug 25, 2022 18:44
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barkbell posted:she'd rather the whole team take a whole 2 week of pto than do any work in regards to that goal. I am open to the idea that I'm totally doing something wrong here but I'm not convinced. It's entirely possible that doing nothing for 2 weeks while the top priority is unblocked is overall better than getting halfway done some low-priority task. Either you end up building the wrong thing or it clogs up whoever's downstream of you (review, integration, testing, deployment) with low priority gunk. Usually there's something actually productive you can do for those two weeks (refactoring that's been put off? writing some documentation?), but if not, head to the break room.
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Aug 25, 2022 21:07
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barkbell posted:Maybe I should just say 'not my problem' and let a bunch of things fail. My fear is that it will reflect badly on the team as a whole and not just the PO. I used to think this too, but malicious compliance is a much better strategy for getting rid of POs than arguing with them. If you were fighting with the PO and the project goes downhill, they can swing the blame back to dev. You can present a case for the work, but it's up to them to prioritize, etc. quote:My po claims to “own the backlog” which means there's a tax on every piece of work to get it created and prioritized because they are non-technical and actively hostile to hearing about technical details. It doesn’t make sense to me for someone to simultaneously own the backlog and also be incapable of understanding, defining and breaking down the work needed. I've been in that situation before, and POs that are hostile to technical details generally don't last more than a project or two, but it's unbearable to work on a team led by one. My strategy for dealing with it is to either job switch or ask for an internal re-assignment.
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Aug 26, 2022 03:13
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The Cavern of COBOL › Oldie Programming: My strategy for dealing with it is to job switch
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Aug 26, 2022 06:59
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barkbell posted:Thanks for the suggestion. I'll investigate how to effectively make and present something like that. Something else has gone wrong here if that's what a work meeting between adults is coming to. Someone is under altogether too much stress.
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Aug 26, 2022 22:41
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barkbell posted:she'd rather the whole team take a whole 2 week of pto than do any work in regards to that goal. This sounds like a pragmatic take from a PO who isn’t poo poo. Seems like something is off
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Aug 26, 2022 22:50
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Throwaway ahoy: I am the 1st hire at a funded small startup which is about to start forming the first proper internal teams. I am being promoted from senior dev to the companies first tech lead (with some team lead stuff mixed in) shortly and I’m looking for some advice going into negotiations with the founder as I’ve been poo poo at it so far: 1. I am currently on €80,000 PA. Feeling pretty unpaid as I know the most junior dev at the company is on approx €70 PA. 2. I’ve been performing parts of being tech lead for a while, leading multiple big projects, reviewing most code, mentoring, having my fingers in every pie being the first employee etc etc 4. I’m EU based (but not in a big tech hub), the startup is fully remote, I have 7.5 years of experience 1.5 at this startup, last pay rise was about a year ago, I love the job/team. 5. I’m a pretty wide generalist doing everything from frontend/backend/dev ops/working directly with customers and the community etc I’m aiming for €140K, am I being unreasonable? How on earth do I sell a 75% pay rise? On levels.fyi for my country and experience range this is around the 75th percentile (but this feels heavily skewed by FAANG like companies). Right now my negotiation "plan" is: • Make sure he is the one to give the first salary offer as previously I’ve blurted out some number first which has always agreed to immediately… • Come up with some sort of "promotion packet" of all the various projects/achievements etc to briefly go over • Is bringing up any of these points a good idea: Inflation is mad, I’ve been underpaid for a while now, my SO just quit her job and we just bought our first house together
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Aug 28, 2022 11:28
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It depends a lot on their budget, how important they believe you are and how likely they think it is you would leave. A lot of startups pay badly, which some people might accept, but only if they have a stake in the company. I would not consider options much of a stake. Anyway, the strategy is the same, go out and get at least one competing offer. Then ask for 30% more than the highest one you get, or whatever it is you want. Unless they're in an incredibly bad position they're not going to want to negotiate without another offer on the table, and when you have one you can even try playing them against each other if you can stomach it. Just make sure to always leave the door open for a counter offer in your emails. Have a number picked out beforehand that you are willing to accept as a win, and be ready to take the other offer if your current employer won't budge.
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Aug 28, 2022 11:52
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trashyiceskates posted:• Is bringing up any of these points a good idea: Inflation is mad, I’ve been underpaid for a while now, my SO just quit her job and we just bought our first house together No, they suck. Don't argue based on your needs, they are completely irrelevant to them, and makes your position look weaker if anything. Your arguments should always be about the value you bring, and will bring, to the company, as well as the implied threat that you might go provide that value to someone else. thotsky fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Aug 28, 2022 |
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Aug 28, 2022 11:58
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just execute on the threat imo.
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Aug 28, 2022 12:10
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thotsky posted:It depends a lot on their budget, how important they believe you are and how likely they think it is you would leave. A lot of startups pay badly, which some people might accept, but only if they have a stake in the company. I would not consider options much of a stake. I have no desire to leave, so I think I'll only resort to shopping around if I feel that the offer is crap. Completely agree that it generally is the best way of handling this but not sure I could handle the interview grind every year just to negotiate salaries. What do you consider as an alternative to options? Profit share? Actual shares?
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Aug 28, 2022 13:24
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Profit share at a startup is probably gonna be worthless unless you're already at profitability, you probably aren't. I always thought one of the main attractions to working for a startup is offsetting the lower pay and benefits with tons of stock that's basically a lottery ticket hoping the company goes to IPO or gets acquired. If you're hellbent on staying there and they can't or won't give you more actual money, shares makes the most sense to me?
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Aug 28, 2022 14:10
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trashyiceskates posted:I have no desire to leave, so I think I'll only resort to shopping around if I feel that the offer is crap. Completely agree that it generally is the best way of handling this but not sure I could handle the interview grind every year just to negotiate salaries. Well, you're basically asking them to give you more money out of the goodness of their hearts then. They might give you some, to keep you from gaining a desire to leave, but it seems very unlikely you will see the kind of pay rise you are looking for. Good luck, though! Actual shares, yeah. Part ownership. thotsky fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Aug 28, 2022 |
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Aug 28, 2022 14:18
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trashyiceskates posted:I have no desire to leave, so I think I'll only resort to shopping around if I feel that the offer is crap. Completely agree that it generally is the best way of handling this but not sure I could handle the interview grind every year just to negotiate salaries. 
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Aug 28, 2022 14:35
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If you're not willing to leave you don't have any leverage
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Aug 28, 2022 15:42
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Small companies tend to be very idiosyncratic, so feel out the situation as you think is best. Getting a counter offer is great, but personally I hate doing the job search. levels.fyi may be skewed by other companies, and your boss will definitely bring that up, but it is still a reasonable place to start. Do you have any insight into your startup's strategy? The standard is to get bought out, you'll want to get some guesses on the likelihood and size of that. Earning $50k less for a few years is fine if you think there will be a $1mil payout. That's hard to judge, and you'll want your own lawyer to review the deal because there are games people play. I think Options can disappear if a company is bought (maybe just unvested options? idk), but your laws may be different. If you want salary, arguing for a huge raise might be easier if you frame it as part of more responsibilities, or just recognizing the responsibilities you have vs your job description or what a normal technical lead does. You can also try arguing for bonuses or raises based on KPIs that you feel confident in. Ask for everything you want up front (although you can add new, equivalent things as part of negotiation). Saying "I want more money, you give me a number" is not a productive move and will just make the whole process frustrating for everyone.
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Aug 28, 2022 15:52
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I know the discussion has moved on somewhat, but for anyone else that can use this, System Design Interview - An insider's guide is the study guide analogue to DDIA (or alternatively, the system design version of CtCI).
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Aug 28, 2022 16:23
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You should go check out the negotiating thread, where you'll get shredded (rightly so) for trying to negotiate with zero leverage If you're unwilling to leave you should ask for a promotion. That's easier to sell and easier for your boss to get you more money which I guess is what you're after Edit: negotiation thread https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3768531 Hadlock fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Aug 28, 2022 |
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Aug 28, 2022 18:49
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Thanks for the all the advice. I think there might have been a miss-understanding here, I am already getting promoted from Senior Dev to Team Lead. I'm just trying to figure out how to approach negotiations around salary due to this promotion and how reasonable it is to ask for a big bump in pay (conclusion being unreasonable without more leverage). I certainly would leave the job if it became awful etc, but right now I'm very happy with it and it is giving me my first promotion into ~~staff engineer~~ land.
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Aug 28, 2022 19:30
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raminasi posted:I know the discussion has moved on somewhat, but for anyone else that can use this, System Design Interview - An insider's guide is the study guide analogue to DDIA (or alternatively, the system design version of CtCI). I got a copy of that yesterday but had a question if anyone had read the second volume and thought that was worth picking up as well.
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Aug 28, 2022 19:40
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trashyiceskates posted:Thanks for the all the advice. I think there might have been a miss-understanding here, I am already getting promoted from Senior Dev to Team Lead. I'm just trying to figure out how to approach negotiations around salary due to this promotion and how reasonable it is to ask for a big bump in pay (conclusion being unreasonable without more leverage). I certainly would leave the job if it became awful etc, but right now I'm very happy with it and it is giving me my first promotion into ~~staff engineer~~ land. You're not getting a 75% raise from getting promoted internally. Also, you don't want to do team lead bitch work for junior level pay, that's ridiculous.
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Aug 28, 2022 22:04
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Not only junior level salary, but they aren't even getting a junior level lottery ticket. Leave and get paid.
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Aug 29, 2022 04:00
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Surely there’s value in getting the lead title, though? I’m a little bored of my current job and I think I could get more pay elsewhere but I’m in line for a promotion from senior to lead and I haven’t found a company that would take me as a lead without the experience.
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Aug 29, 2022 07:55
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What will you do when you as the lead are hiring all these people and they're getting paid much more than you?
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Aug 29, 2022 08:01
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:You're not getting a 75% raise from getting promoted internally. Also, you don't want to do team lead bitch work for junior level pay, that's ridiculous. What would you say is non-junior pay for an EU remote startup? asur posted:Not only junior level salary, but they aren't even getting a junior level lottery ticket. Leave and get paid. I have 0.5% in options, but no clue if this is a fair amount. Rocko Bonaparte posted:What will you do when you as the lead are hiring all these people and they're getting paid much more than you? Get a raise or move on?
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Aug 29, 2022 08:54
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I do think some people are missing that this is an EU poster and there is a large gap between how software developers are paid in the US and the EU. Looking at levels.fyi for Europe OP is probably underpaid for a lead, depending on the country, but I don't think it's junior pay doing lead work level underpaid.
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Aug 29, 2022 15:18
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wilderthanmild posted:I do think some people are missing that this is an EU poster and there is a large gap between how software developers are paid in the US and the EU. Looking at levels.fyi for Europe OP is probably underpaid for a lead, depending on the country, but I don't think it's junior pay doing lead work level underpaid. the barrier to just working at a us firm is (comparatively) real thin tho. and that's unquestionably internship pay for the us
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Aug 29, 2022 15:22
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I am european, and I made about what OP made after 4 years, which put me in the 90th percentile. A senior dev can get what OP is asking for if they are very lucky, but there's not a lot of places to go from there. You would have to move into management, become a partner somewhere, create a startup or move, at least in Norway. You're still very much looked at like a regular worker as a programmer here, meaning that while your pay goes up pretty fast and you end up earning above average, you're still on the curve; it's really only finance and upper management that get the kind of salaries one sees in the US.
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Aug 29, 2022 15:50
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The advantage is that you don’t live in the US.
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Aug 29, 2022 16:46
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Pollyanna posted:The advantage is that you don’t live in the US. european economy is also concurrently eating the most poo poo in a long time, the uk the most in 300 years, east europe the worst since the post soviet breakup, prc the worst in 30 years, se asia terrible, japan going as normal. s africa falling on its face, oil exporters all doing great except for russia and the us, russia cuz the war and the us cuz its too big an economy for oil to be its one thing so its the saudis who are laughing as shenzhen endures 38*c and the danube and rhine dry up
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Aug 29, 2022 17:03
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We are paying our python Polish/Lithuanian/ Colombian/Mexican contractors about $65k usd, all three of the contractors on my team are under 26 and relatively junior Five years ago(?) at another company we were paying our Belarus java contractors more like $25k, but that was before remote work became the norm I dunno why developers accept such low salary in Europe, pays similar to being an electrician. At least the electrician isn't sitting at a desk all day
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