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Both PPP and student loans were given out by the government because they wanted to incentivise certain outcomes. For PPP it was keeping business going through shutdowns. I think it's important to remember that tons of businesses that didn't need the cash infusion took them anyways. Student loans are given out by the government because an educated population is desirable for a government. It increases gdp and is needed for industry and remaining competitive internationally. In the long run if only the rich get educated it will be a catastrophe for the US business world. Why should these republicans be so dead set against one federal program forgiving a portion of a loan when another federal program forgave many entities a much larger loan?
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Aug 27, 2022 14:45
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Artonos posted:Why should these republicans be so dead set against one federal program forgiving a portion of a loan when another federal program forgave many entities a much larger loan? I mean, beyond just trying to score quick points and general culture war stuff, the GOP doesn't support public education, let alone higher education for non landowning wealthy white men.
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Aug 27, 2022 14:58
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cgeq posted:I mean, beyond just trying to score quick points and general culture war stuff, the GOP doesn't support public education, let alone higher education for non landowning wealthy white men. I think there's a big enough faction within the GOP that likes the prestige that comes along with universities. There's also a ton of conservative universities out there. It's a little bit of watch what they do and not what they say kind of thing with higher education.
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Aug 27, 2022 15:22
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Artonos posted:I think there's a big enough faction within the GOP that likes the prestige that comes along with universities. There's also a ton of conservative universities out there. It's a little bit of watch what they do and not what they say kind of thing with higher education. That faction doesn't need student loans though.
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Aug 27, 2022 15:36
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Artonos posted:Both PPP and student loans were given out by the government because they wanted to incentivise certain outcomes. For PPP it was keeping business going through shutdowns. I think it's important to remember that tons of businesses that didn't need the cash infusion took them anyways. The GOP doesn't like educated people, because educated people are less likely to support them. On the other hand, they love getting loans for themselves that are later forgiven. That's literally it. They want their loans to be forgiven, but they don't want yours to be forgiven, because they hate you.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:17
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I guess I'm a little off track here. I was trying to respond to the idea that equating PPP and student loans was an inaccurate or false equivalence on par with some of the other ridiculous talking points that come out of the gop. PPP and student loans were both government programs geared to achieve a certain outcome. And if forgiving either one achieves an outcome that the government wants that's a valid use of government funds. There's plenty of middle class trump voters who have student loans. Student loans cut across ideological lines. I don't see anyone on the right advocating for the abolition of new loans.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:22
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Queering Wheel posted:The GOP doesn't like educated people, because educated people are less likely to support them. On the other hand, they love getting loans for themselves that are later forgiven. That's literally it. They want their loans to be forgiven, but they don't want yours to be forgiven, because they hate you. Yes definitely agree. I was trying to respond to the idea that the current talking point of PPP loans being similar to student loans is intellectually dishonest coming from the left.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:23
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Queering Wheel posted:The GOP doesn't like educated people, because educated people are less likely to support them. On the other hand, they love getting loans for themselves that are later forgiven. That's literally it. They want their loans to be forgiven, but they don't want yours to be forgiven, because they hate you. More systematically speaking, PPP loans supported capital, while student loan forgiveness supports labor. Republican leaders recognize their own class interests intuitively even when not consciously thinking in that framework.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:More systematically speaking, PPP loans supported capital, while student loan forgiveness supports labor. Republican leaders recognize their own class interests intuitively even when not consciously thinking in that framework. I don't know how many, if any, democrats criticized PPP loans, the related grifting + screwing over workers or the loans being forgiven. They seemed very in favor of it all around. The tweets were calling out hypocrisy, which isn't that effective in convincing voters and certainly doesn't abash the GOP.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:31
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In theory the PPP loans were a good idea, but they were just handed out to anyone who asked without much oversight, and a lot of it went into the pockets of business owners and not employees who actually needed it.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:42
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the story isn't the hypocrisy the story is gop pols getting dunked on by some whitehouse twitter account
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Aug 27, 2022 16:44
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The premise of PPP was “they will be forgiven if you don’t do layoffs.” I assume the problem is that they were given to companies that wouldn’t have done layoffs anyway, so just free money.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:45
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Artonos posted:
Because they don't want an educated populace, plain and simple, since it cuts into their base. They want voters who totally believe what they hear on the radio and FOX News, aside from the ones with their eyes on Big Money who get into Ivy League schools via generational wealth and legacy programs. The GOP has done quite well with non college educated, white, blue collar workers and a large part of that is because they listen to that dumb radio all day. I'm not entirely sure how to account for their gains in the Latino community other than that Democrats take those voters for granted and that Latinos, like anybody else, are as vulnerable to the crab bucket mentality as anyone else; along with being fairly socially conservative, religious, dedicated to being hard working and (many of them) with a built in opposition to anything resembling a socialist government. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Aug 27, 2022 |
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Aug 27, 2022 16:46
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smackfu posted:The premise of PPP was “they will be forgiven if you don’t do layoffs.” I assume the problem is that they were given to companies that wouldn’t have done layoffs anyway, so just free money.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:47
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Yeah I understand that the gop position is hypocritically. I don't think PPP was bad either. It was a widespread program that had to move quick and because of that oversight was limited. Both programs, student loan forgiveness and PPP, were net positives. Happily taking one and criticizing the other is hypocritical and deserves to be pointed out via Twitter dunks.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:50
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FlamingLiberal posted:I could be wrong, but I don't believe there were any strings attached to claw back the money if the companies did layoffs, so they just pocketed the cash and laid people off anyway. That it was a loan was the string. You laid people off, you didn't qualify for loan forgiveness and you have to pay it back like any other loan.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:53
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evilweasel posted:That it was a loan was the string. You laid people off, you didn't qualify for loan forgiveness and you have to pay it back like any other loan.
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Aug 27, 2022 16:54
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oh my god https://twitter.com/hannahgais/status/1563255591396528130?s=20&t=5NU55EX3Cn0AaXZzbRvJNA
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Aug 27, 2022 16:58
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Herstory Begins Now posted:the story isn't the hypocrisy the story is gop pols getting dunked on by some whitehouse twitter account Interested in/horrified by what Gaetz used that money to "keep open."
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Aug 27, 2022 16:59
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I think there is a bit of an overthinking going on here. GOP ND their supporters are all about "why should I pay for someone else who is probably lazy and a minority and don't deserve any help". When it came to the PPP they can justify taking those loans because they aren't lazy, a minority and they don't need help (but will take it anyway). It's very much a "it's good for me but bad for you" kind of attitude. They aren't benefitting directly from the student loan forgiveness like they were from PPP so it must be benefitting people who don't deserve it and why should they get help? It's a gently caress you got mine attitude.
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Aug 27, 2022 17:10
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FlamingLiberal posted:I could be wrong, but I don't believe there were any strings attached to claw back the money if the companies did layoffs, so they just pocketed the cash and laid people off anyway. It happened to me. My boss got the free loans then bought a new company and laid me (and several others) off after he basically found someone who would do my job for less money and also after he made me train the person that eventually replaced me. This was after he assured me my job was safe and not to worry about the new hires. Dick.
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Aug 27, 2022 17:11
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the reality is that it is in a certain sense dishonest to use PPP loans as a direct comparison on the other hand when you base your entire party's political strategy on lying, then wah wah wah people are eliding over some non-obvious differences why won't anyone help me, as I lie about who won the election and claim that trump is a good, sane man
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Aug 27, 2022 17:13
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evilweasel posted:the reality is that it is in a certain sense dishonest to use PPP loans as a direct comparison Sure but this is like the truism about how uninformed people think the civil war was about slavery, slightly more educated people think it was about state's rights, and the actual experts realize it was after all just about slavery. On the basic level, it's just dunking on hypocrisy, and that's hilarious. On a first analysis, sure, there are differences between the PPP program and the student loan forgiveness program, and arguments can be made, and there are technical distinctions. On a deeper analysis, though, Madkal posted:I think there is a bit of an overthinking going on here. GOP ND their supporters are all about "why should I pay for someone else who is probably lazy and a minority and don't deserve any help". When it came to the PPP they can justify taking those loans because they aren't lazy, a minority and they don't need help (but will take it anyway). It's very much a "it's good for me but bad for you" kind of attitude. They aren't benefitting directly from the student loan forgiveness like they were from PPP so it must be benefitting people who don't deserve it and why should they get help? It's a gently caress you got mine attitude. Hieronymous Alloy posted:More systematically speaking, PPP loans supported capital, while student loan forgiveness supports labor. Republican leaders recognize their own class interests intuitively even when not consciously thinking in that framework. which aren't contradictory points, but rather mutually supporting ones. End of the day, government cash handouts to rich, white, upper class people support the capitalist and racist structure that right-wing media and right-wing politicians exist to reinforce, and handouts to people who aren't rich white capitalists threaten that structure, so right wing media is going to attack it. It has nothing to do with the structure of the loans or surface expressed goals or details of the respective programs. It's that Fox News and the Republican Party exist to make the rich richer and the brown poorer, and one set of programs reinforces that goal and the other opposes it. And dunking on the hypocrisy illustrates that they're just capitalist racists. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Aug 27, 2022 |
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Aug 27, 2022 17:25
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It's fair to say that PPP and student loan forgiveness aren't the same, because on an extremely technical level that is true. However the American class system is designed to make distinctions between wealthy individuals and the companies they own blurry and indistinct; it is designed to hide how the rich play with money and ownership to make precisely this kind of relationship difficult to parse. PPP is almost certainly a direct handout to these kinds of people. Like the whole reason these people make companies is to hide and grow their own wealth, this isn't a mystery.
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Aug 27, 2022 17:50
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Drawing a distinction between the PPP “loans”, which were basically payouts specifically to keep people employed and businesses afloat in an unprecedented crisis, and student loan debt forgiveness, is actually a coherent argument isn’t it? Student loans are, from one perspective, a payout to get people employed. It's just that we subsidize it from the worker end rather than the business end. And the student debt crisis is unprecedented as well. But that misses the point of what's going on right now. This is a battle to sway public opinion, and in the war of soundbites, the side that has to go "well ACTUALLY" and add nuance usually loses. That's why so many PPP recipients are out there talking about the moral obligation to repay loans and how it's bad for the government to inject cash into the economy. Bing bong, so simple! It's a nice, easy, digestible argument that fits into 140 characters or a five-second video clip. So point at their cash injection and their unpaid loans, and let them be the ones to start adding a bunch of complicated nuance.
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Aug 27, 2022 18:08
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Yeah I just don’t think it’s as good a gotcha as it seems, because they are pretty different things. But eh, whatever, nuance is dead so take what we can get I guess. They aren't. They didn't have to take those loans, they could've just gone out of business. Similarly, the students didn't have to take their loans, they'd just have to accept the extremely high likelihood of reduced income and quality of life for as long as they were alive. Just illusion of choice stuff. The only real false equivalence to be found is that comparing the two is disingenuous because it implies that a business is as important as a human life. Artonos posted:Yes definitely agree. There's little reward for strict intellectual honesty in the battlefields of social media. It's a contemptible medium and everybody who posts on it knows it, so a sincere dedication to being strictly accurate will never be seen as an argument worth considering because whoever is making it doesn't get it. Using the official White House account to drag these insane lunatics is the first real media savvy move aimed toward the proles that the admin has made. It was truly excellent and most important of all, very funny.
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Aug 27, 2022 18:10
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Y’all think too much GOP going : money from government bad. So they’re responding: you took significantly more money from government.
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Aug 27, 2022 18:15
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I called out a relative of mine who had a PPP loan forgiven and was on an angry facebook posting spree about the debt just being transferred to everyone else and "I don’t want to bail our corporations and I sure as poo poo don’t want to pay for some douchebaggery gender-queen studies major that will have trouble making more than minimum wage." Dropping the "This you?" was quite satisfying, and he immediately started moving goal posts about how it wasn't a bailout (he didn't even need the money), and nobody was forced to go to college, but the government shut down businesses. At the end of the day it's a government loan being forgiven just the same, so if one is shoveling debt onto the back of taxpayers, so is the other.
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Aug 27, 2022 18:18
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Imagine being so stunningly loving stupid that, after POTUS holds just short of reminding everyone how nuts you are, you’re like “yep, it’s me, everyone. Remember the Jewish space lasers?” https://twitter.com/repmtg/status/1563282346660442113?s=21
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Aug 27, 2022 18:19
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Epic High Five posted:Using the official White House account to drag these insane lunatics is the first real media savvy move aimed toward the proles that the admin has made. It was truly excellent and most important of all, very funny. This but all forms of political discourse. Caring even one second about “honest” political discourse is a waste of time and counter productive. Everything should be results oriented. If one is politically “honest” in a debate it should only be because it is necessary. Too many folks worry about the methods and not the effective outcome. It’s why conservatives run circles around liberals typically.
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Aug 27, 2022 18:39
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:This but all forms of political discourse. Caring even one second about “honest” political discourse is a waste of time and counter productive. Everything should be results oriented. If one is politically “honest” in a debate it should only be because it is necessary. Notice in the homeless sweeps around the country the only ones that weren't completed with impunity involved rifles in cop faces. Only outcomes matter, never method or intent
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Aug 27, 2022 18:40
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:This but all forms of political discourse. Caring even one second about “honest” political discourse is a waste of time and counter productive. Everything should be results oriented. If one is politically “honest” in a debate it should only be because it is necessary. I think holding it as an important ideal when you're among people you align with broadly is still of great value, as rigorous critique and debate is the only way to form a personal political philosophy that is coherent and as sweeping as possible. I just think there is peril is assuming this is broadly applicable, which is clearly is not. Thinking like, out at the pub with some organizers and socialists after a rally versus rolling out of bed to sign on to Twitter sort of thing.
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Aug 27, 2022 18:46
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PT6A posted:Imagine being so stunningly loving stupid that, after POTUS holds just short of reminding everyone how nuts you are, you’re like “yep, it’s me, everyone. Remember the Jewish space lasers?” Remember when Trump called the CEO of Apple “Tim Apple”?
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Aug 27, 2022 18:46
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He also kept referring to some general called Raisin Cane or something like that who obviously doesn’t exist
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Aug 27, 2022 18:48
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FlamingLiberal posted:He also kept referring to some general called Raisin Cane or something like that who obviously doesn’t exist Well at least he knows his tendies.
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Aug 27, 2022 19:45
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marshmonkey posted:oh my god Man hunter is a loving boss
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Aug 27, 2022 19:51
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cr0y posted:Man hunter is a loving boss The Right is definitely putting the work in to make the Bidens seem like cool dudes.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:35
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Queering Wheel posted:I love this because you just know MTG is probably mad af that Biden didn't recall her name Apparently she was not amused. https://twitter.com/Salon/status/1563449892735172608?s=20&t=1GfJCiUCXXsIi0Mn_y7RrA sinburger posted:The Right is definitely putting the work in to make the Bidens seem like cool dudes. Their party has been speed running Idiocracy for so long that the only play they can come up with at this point is trying to put the aide running the whitehouse twitter account out of a job. https://twitter.com/BobTheNewshound/status/1563175529066270720
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Aug 27, 2022 21:24
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Also how most of those PPP loans were naked grift and just pocketed money meant to pay employees and such. Instead of paying their employees, a shitload of those small business tyrants just bought bro-trucks, boats and wave runners and a 2nd vacation house! College chat:  My advice for any goons with teenagers about to hit college years is definitely do not rule out Jr. college, hell the one I went to (Orange Coast) back in the late 80's is still in 2022 only $46/unit. Also don't be in a huge rush to get them completely done with college in 4 years, 6 is a more reasonable goal and will allow p/t work so they know that work sucks and to study smarter and not gently caress around with a useless degree. State schools are also cool and good. Neither of my parents finished college but the sure as heck helped me as much as they could. I couldn't imagine the pain of having a kid get a 4 year and them starting off their careers $125k in debt.
Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 27, 2022 |
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Aug 27, 2022 22:13
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Keyser_Soze posted:Instead of paying their employees, a shitload of those small business tyrants just bought bro-trucks, boats and wave runners and a 2nd vacation house! you forgot "a foil Charizard card".
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