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FMguru posted:I mean, check out this diagram which encapsulates the core argument of his 600 page magnum opus: All I've been able to figure out is that half of his schtick is some "argumentum ad gulag" thing where basically any vaguely progressive-sounding thing may seem harmless NOW but everyone knows where Marxism leads in the end! ... which is just blatantly reductive and hyperbolic. It feels like one of those Mad TV bits where some character just keeps saying the same gimmick phrase over and over again. The other half is this quasi-religious Jungian Time Cube nonsense. How do you "debunk" that? Where do you even start with someone that looks at that diagram, then looks at you, and says "show me the part where this doesn't make sense?"
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Aug 29, 2022 10:51
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OneEightHundred posted:The other half is this quasi-religious Jungian Time Cube nonsense. How do you "debunk" that? Where do you even start with someone that looks at that diagram, then looks at you, and says "show me the part where this doesn't make sense?" For me it's that Prima Materia poo poo. I tried equipping that and all it did was invoke Poison on me and make me fall asleep for the rest of the game.
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Aug 29, 2022 11:10
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You just vaguely point at the entire disgram and say 'that part, all of those parts.'
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Aug 29, 2022 11:28
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FunkyFjord posted:You just vaguely point at the entire disgram and say 'that part, all of those parts.' "No no, I never said that... You don't have the whole context"
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Aug 29, 2022 13:51
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Weatherman posted:For me it's that Prima Materia poo poo. I tried equipping that and all it did was invoke Poison on me and make me fall asleep for the rest of the game. Nah man, you gotta equip it to a party member and win 255 fights with it equipped, then it turns into the Holy Shield. I mean, that's actually just how you purify the cursed shield in FFVI, but it's better life advice than anything Jorp has said.
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Aug 29, 2022 13:58
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Tesseraction posted:If you want the shortest possible video, here's Jim Jeffries murdering him in 42 seconds https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1331505661817937921 Honestly, I think this is an example of Peterson at his best and most reasonable. He starts out with a dumb idea, carefully considers a logical argument against it, then reconsiders. I think a lot of the problems in Peterson's life are because he doesn't have someone telling him that he's being an idiot when he has a bad idea. Being propped up as the world's smartest genius man has got to be the fastest route to coming up with some really dogshit ideas.
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Aug 29, 2022 13:59
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Honestly, I think this is an example of Peterson at his best and most reasonable. "Oh... Uh... Maybe that was wrong.... Maybe, or something"
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Aug 29, 2022 14:23
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Jordan Peterson is the guy who went crying to his youtube channel after he got banned from twitter, right? The "up yours woke moralists" guy?
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Aug 29, 2022 14:45
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among other extemely dumb 'what an idiot thinks a smart person sounds like' takes, yeah
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Aug 29, 2022 15:14
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Peterson has faced criticisms of his beliefs or reasoning multiple times, and every time he either deflects with a "nevertheless", whatabouts, or just straight up gets defensive and continues on. Actually trying to disprove his bullshit to his face is meaningless. All you can do is show his audience how full of poo poo he is, like the Zizek debate. For example, his crusade against bill C-16 was meaningless for the simple fact that not only did the proposed bill not do what he said it was going to do, but a similar law already existed at the provincial level for a few years and it didn't seem to affect him at all. I will shout that fact from the rooftops every time he's brought up because holy poo poo did the media ever signalboost him for something that was easily false under the guise of "free speech". And I am 100% sure that this was brought up to him, but he didn't give a gently caress. Also, we don't have full freedom of speech in Canada. Like, constitutionally, the government can abridge an individual's right to freedom of speech under reasonable circumstances for the purpose of maintaining a "free and democratic society".
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Aug 29, 2022 15:30
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Don't sleep on that twitter thread. I think my favourite is where he gets bodied by Joe Rogan of all people. I mean when JR is 'That doesn't make sense' and is poking holes in your arguments. You've hosed up.
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Aug 29, 2022 15:33
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Electric Phantasm posted:Jordan Peterson is the guy who went crying to his youtube channel after he got banned from twitter, right? There's rational, logical deconstructions of Jordan Peterson. There's quippy "what's new isn't good, and what's good isn't new" insults. And then there's editing him into Command and Conquer videos to highlight how absurd he is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nvckip7qxk
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Aug 29, 2022 15:39
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https://youtu.be/uWXxlYzBCno
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Aug 29, 2022 15:48
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Honestly, I think this is an example of Peterson at his best and most reasonable. He starts out with a dumb idea, carefully considers a logical argument against it, then reconsiders. Except for the part where we have the benefit of hindsight after several years and know that he never took that argument to heart. He is still just as anti-LGBT and I'd argue even moreso now than he was back then. What happened is that he realized it sounded bad in the moment for him to be against the civil rights movement on those same principles because that's too racist for his little "what do words even mean??" game of denial, instantly rolled over onto his back because he wasn't in control of the interview, and the very instant that he walked out of that room, he went right back to whining about how it's literal tyranny to force people to bake a cake for gay people or use their preferred pronouns. He didn't reconsider; he just played dead.
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Aug 29, 2022 19:09
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He's not even a good spokesperson for that, he's just the first person some people seeking an "intellectual" latched on to, but it's like: Jorps: "Preferred pronouns are bad." Someone: "Could you elaborate a bit on why they're bad?" Jorps: "Because it's a Neo-Marxist idea. GULAGS!"
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Aug 29, 2022 20:15
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Generic American posted:Except for the part where we have the benefit of hindsight after several years and know that he never took that argument to heart. You're correct, but that video on its own is a good demonstration of someone engaging in an honest discussion and (apparently) revising their beliefs after hearing a persuasive argument. I don't like presenting this as Peterson looking stupid or getting owned, because that's the same stupid framing they use for all the dumb Ben Shapiro stuff. It accepts the framing of "Smart people are never wrong and always win every argument." If we compare that to other videos, the ones where he dismisses arguments, uncharitably misinterprets questions, gets hung up on the specific meaning of individual words, etc., Those are cases where Peterson is "owning students" but we should focus on why they make Peterson a stupider person who's less able to identify problems with his own ideas.
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Aug 29, 2022 20:48
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These are so great.
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Aug 29, 2022 20:53
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Deptfordx posted:Don't sleep on that twitter thread. Yeah, the Most Credulous Person In The World is being like "wait a second holdup". Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Aug 29, 2022 |
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Aug 29, 2022 22:29
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mojo1701a posted:Peterson has faced criticisms of his beliefs or reasoning multiple times, and every time he either deflects with a "nevertheless", whatabouts, or just straight up gets defensive and continues on. Doesn't he also do the Ben Shapiro thing where he just rants a bunch word salad for 14 minutes straight and then dares his debate opponent to pick it apart in ways that you almost have to start from the beginning and tear it down piece by piece but it's almost impossible because of the sheer volume of half truths, lies and unsourced assertions that wind up with teh other guy looking like an idiot because they simply don't know where to start with this poo poo.
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Aug 30, 2022 00:55
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BiggerBoat posted:Doesn't he also do the Ben Shapiro thing where he just rants a bunch word salad for 14 minutes straight and then dares his debate opponent to pick it apart in ways that you almost have to start from the beginning and tear it down piece by piece but it's almost impossible because of the sheer volume of half truths, lies and unsourced assertions that wind up with teh other guy looking like an idiot because they simply don't know where to start with this poo poo. Yeah that's called a gish gallop. Just say a bunch of bullshit at a high rate and with confidence. It's why verbal debates are not good measures of who is right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
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Aug 30, 2022 01:05
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^^^I thought a Gish Gallop was like when you do a poll, word the question dishonestly and then only offer answers that support the intended outcome^^^? Like: What are your thoughts on Joe Biden A) Too liberal B) Too old C) Didn't win the election D) Believes in big government Or is that a push poll? And... Whatever dickhead is on my local WGOP station this evening at 6pm actually had the audacity to say that YouTube is notorious for censoring and shutting down right wing content and I almost drove off the loving road. If YT is scrubbing horrible RW bullshit from there site than something is really wrong with my feed and recommendations algorithm. I never listen to any of that garbage and also never never track my history but I can go from watching Prince concerts and Simpsons clips to a whole slew of talk radio bullshit with astonishing speed. I'll fall asleep listening to Mitch Hedberg and wake up with some Hannity or Rogan trash locked and loaded or some weird rando posting videos about Soros or how bad trans people are. There is ZERO reason for Tucker Carlson to ever show up in my suggestions so if YT is silencing GOP conservatives, they're really sucking at it. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 01:27
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"Up yours, woke moralists!" just cracks me up every time I think about it.
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Aug 30, 2022 02:11
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:You're correct, but
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Aug 30, 2022 02:35
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Nah BB Gish Gallop is just that tactic of dropping way too many lies and non-sequiturs too quickly for your adversary to field. While they are still unpacking what all the gently caress is wrong with your first premise there are four more piling on tops that are just as ridiculous and inexplicable. The intention is to leave you gasping and as far as I know the only counter is to pick a small amount of information you really want to get out, and just hammer that over and over; because good look getting any message out through that kinda of poo poo screen. The guy who it is named after is called Gish.
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Aug 30, 2022 03:17
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:You're correct, but that video on its own is a good demonstration of someone engaging in an honest discussion and (apparently) revising their beliefs after hearing a persuasive argument. Literally all you need to do is play that clip, and then juxtapose it against him getting temporarily banned from Twitter this year because he literally couldn't shut the gently caress up about the hypothetical situation of him personally having to use the correct pronouns for Elliot Page. Then he deleted the tweet, was allowed back on Twitter, and immediately posted a picture of that tweet again. Like, that clip doesn't exist in some weird vacuum where you aren't allowed to look at how it exists in the broader context of what he says outside of that single interview. Someone debated him, pointed out a basic contradiction that he couldn't address, and he went right back to his bullshit without a second thought because he doesn't actually care about anything beyond his gut feeling that evil Marxists are using gay people as a Trojan horse to destroy traditional values.
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Aug 30, 2022 03:56
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I don't see how any interpretation of that clip with the comedian makes Peterson look good. Either he was sincere, meaning he was attacking people's civil rights for years without thinking through the most obvious consequences of his ideas. And he's a doctor, not some freshman polisci student. How can you take him seriously if he doesn't scrutinize his own ideas. Or he had thought about that, and just didn't care, figured nobody would press him too hard, and got tripped up in an interview and quickly decided to lie rather than gently caress up his image by defending Jim Crow.
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Aug 30, 2022 04:04
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VitalSigns posted:I don't see how any interpretation of that clip with the comedian makes Peterson look good. It's this. If he honestly reconsidered his ideas it would be good, but he didnt and that wasnt it. It was just him getting owned. You dont have to hand it to him.
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Aug 30, 2022 04:25
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I want to be a little more clear about my point here. If we're talking to someone who already has a generally good impression of Peterson or other Right Wing media, I don't think it's constructive to try to take him down by showing a case where he was forced to confront a contradiction and concluded that he might have made a mistake, and then call it out as a huge failure by Peterson. The goal is to get the person to realize they've made an embarrassing mistake by buying into Peterson, so lay a foundation of "It's really admirable when someone has a dumb idea and changes it rather than deflecting or dismissing it or just rambling off a million other points." The idea is to change what their perception of "smart guy" actually is. Is it a guy who always wins every argument, who never lets anyone get a word in edgewise, who just talks and talks and talks as fast as they can without ever really examining any ideas in depth? Or is it someone who can slow down a little, think things through, makes sure their ideas are internally consistent, and thinks about what they're really saying? A lot of people only know the Gish Gallop. They think that's how it's supposed to work. You've gotta get them to recognize how it works and how it's used to keep people from recognizing that they're just peddling flim-flam.
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Aug 30, 2022 04:50
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Jaxyon posted:Yeah, the Most Credulous Person In The World is being like "wait a second holdup".
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Aug 30, 2022 04:55
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I want to be a little more clear about my point here. If we're talking to someone who already has a generally good impression of Peterson or other Right Wing media, I don't think it's constructive to try to take him down by showing a case where he was forced to confront a contradiction and concluded that he might have made a mistake, and then call it out as a huge failure by Peterson. If you are specifically looking for a single clip that you can just play for someone without any sort of commentary or context to completely change their opinion of him, then I don't think you will have much luck. There is no silver bullet moment where someone owns him so hard that he bursts into flames and starts speaking in tongues. Just play that clip and say "that is him lying, because he still throws a tantrum whenever he thinks about gay people forcing someone to bake a cake for them or a transgender person somewhere in the world dares to have preferred pronouns." It won't magically cure a Peterson fan, but it's a solid starting point to establish that he is an intellectual coward who just wants to reinforce what he already believes.
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Aug 30, 2022 05:09
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Generic American posted:Just play that clip and say "that is him lying, because he still throws a tantrum whenever he thinks about gay people forcing someone to bake a cake for them or a transgender person somewhere in the world dares to have preferred pronouns." It won't magically cure a Peterson fan, but it's a solid starting point to establish that he is an intellectual coward who just wants to reinforce what he already believes. I think you're right that it's important to show how that interaction doesn't stick. It reinforces the point that he's not being logical, he's not a reasonable person. He just says what feels right and never actually thinks through the implications of what he's saying. The reason he does that is if he did slow down, the whole thing would fall apart, it's not a coherent worldview.
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Aug 30, 2022 06:50
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That video and the thread are just moments of him being humiliated by simple questions, which is why I said it's the shortest possible example, I definitely think the Some More News video is a better takedown of his overall thought process and even takes a very sympathetic note of how Peterson is clearly not mentally well.
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Aug 30, 2022 10:09
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"You virtue signaling wokescolds are just making up words1 and thinking therapy is always the solution, the man's a doctor of psychology, what degrees do you have??" 1: my personal favorite Shapiro moment
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Aug 30, 2022 10:59
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Anyone here ever listen to Jeff Kuhner out of Boston? I stumbled on his show when I lived there and even though I moved away 6+ years ago, I still check in occasionally because he is just an absolutely unhinged scumbag. Anyway, I was just tuning in and caught a fascinating moment when a caller came so, so close to having a lightbulb moment before this guy pulled him back under. It was an incredible example of the right wing echo chamber brainwashing in action. Here's a very rough paraphrase: Caller: (talking about about the "stolen" election) My daughter talked to me about it, and I started thinking, and I just don't understand how they could steal it... how can we be so stupid and the democrats be so smart/evil... you keep saying that AZ/WI/PA don't add up, but she showed me how the votes do add up... and none of the investigations found evidence of fraud....(he was kind of stammering and you could tell his brain was just grinding to a halt) I just don't get it, are the democrats having clandestine communications or something?... it's gotta be more simple than that... (after a long pause) ...I don't think the election was stolen... Kuhner: no no no, the election was definitely stolen, the votes don't match, and there's lots of evidence, (starts throwing out random percentages) you see, we never got our day in court because the Supreme Court never actually heard the case, they ruled it on standing, so there's actually mountains of evidence that we never got to present! Go watch 2000 Mules, have your daughter watch it too, I think she'll enjoy it! (hangs up, cuts to commercial break) I know it's hardly a surprise to anyone in this thread, but seeing the "just keep repeating the same nonsense talking points over and over and over, and when you run out, change the subject" unfold in real time was... sad, really. The caller's daughter must be a saint. He was so, so close to getting it....
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Aug 30, 2022 14:51
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Yeah God's patience on that daughter to have got him climbing back from the ledge. I hope that he spends more time in her company and out of this Jeff fella's.
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Aug 30, 2022 16:08
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https://twitter.com/Jackalo75672986/status/1564695757026107393
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Aug 30, 2022 20:28
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I have been saying since 2019 that Steve Bannon and Bill Barr are the same person and no one has ever seen them in the same room together.
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Aug 30, 2022 22:02
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Star Man posted:I have been saying since 2019 that Steve Bannon and Bill Barr are the same person and no one has ever seen them in the same room together. How does he manage to keep the flies away when he's in Barr form?
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Aug 31, 2022 00:28
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Good Bill’s in the lodge, and he can’t leave. Write it in your diary.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:35
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FFT posted:"You virtue signaling wokescolds are just making up words1 and thinking therapy is always the solution, the man's a doctor of psychology, what degrees do you have??" But...I thought colleges were liberal factories that are there to indoctrinate young minds and teach them to hate America? Or is the hero in this story the guy that repeatedly dropped such devastating right wing truth bombs on the nerdy professor that he forced his way to a degree even though his teacher tried to fail him for "telling it like it is" and then gradually won over the entire class to his side once his superior intellect became obvious and he started getting a ton of pussy?
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Aug 31, 2022 00:48
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