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Phigs posted:This also marked the point where I quit vanilla WoW. See the thing is in classic you had to put in a lot of effort to find a group, then you zerged the instance and then go about your day never giving the run or the group or the people in it another thought. The only difference to me seems to be with matchmaking I have to put less effort in and worry less about "dal'rends reserved" bullshit. edit: Back in the day I was with you by the way. But times have changed and how people play these types of games has changed. Back in the day WotLK got worse by adding dungeon finder, but now WotLK classic got worse by not keeping dungeon finder in it. DaitoX fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Sep 4, 2022 |
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Sep 4, 2022 18:56
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DaitoX posted:See the thing is in classic you had to put in a lot of effort to find a group, then you zerged the instance and then go about your day never giving the run or the group or the people in it another thought. That's a pretty good point actually and I can't disagree.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:29
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Hellioning posted:Meeting stones were a vanilla thing (eventually), but they weren't used that much because it still required you to go to the dungeon entrance and people would rather just hang out in a capital city and spam the chat channels there. I'm pretty sure TBC had this whole sign-up menu, which wouldn't whisk you away to the dungeon, but did allows -someone- to invite the people on the list and get the group going. I just remember it also having vanilla dungeons and raids in it.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:44
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I played a lot more dungeons (and as such, remember a lot more dungeons) during WORLK because of the dungeon finder. It made the game much more friendly to casual players than the earlier game. It had some flaws, I suppose, but it was definitely an improvement to the previous set up, where you had a vast list of people online, but only had a way to contact a tiny fraction of it. Dungeon finder is good, detractors are needlessly gatekeeping based on some heavily tinted rosy glasses.
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Sep 5, 2022 12:54
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While I'm firmly in the Dungeon Finder Good -camp, I also kinda feel that if there ever was a game that should've kept cross-server matchmaking out of it, it was WotLK era WoW. This was so long ago memory is hazy, but I think this is the way it launched, and it was fine. It was not until they added matchmaking with people you're literally never going to see ever again that the already pretty awful community went into a full on nosedive, as any sense of social repercussions from your behavior in dungeons was utterly gone.
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Sep 5, 2022 13:32
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Judging from the anecdotes of people I know who used to play pre-finder I think sometimes it gets understated how much people were gated by their minority status if it was known for whatever reason, i.e. a woman known as such for speaking in ventrilo or whatever. Granted there were some groups that were inclusive or just didn't care, but "reputation" comprised more than skill level for better and for worse.
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Sep 5, 2022 13:39
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finding groups manually in chat is a bad idea, automatic match making is a bad idea. ready for a good idea? dungeon tinder. you swipe on user created profiles until you find a very sexy tank, healer or dps and if they like you back its off to the races
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Sep 5, 2022 14:45
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EQ had no dungeon finder when I played, maybe it does now. Finding groups was a real challenge at times. You could add a tag to yourself using /LFG and people could search for a list of players by typing /who all LFG, or /who all [class], or /who all [level range] and your name would be listed with the additional tag that you were looking for a group. You could get people directly messaging you, but you never knew how long that would take at a given time. Other than that, you hade to be proactive, by going into zones you wanted to camp and using a zonewide message channel to say you were LFG. Truly desperate times you could directly message people in a group to see if they would let you in and some of the super popular camps had "a list," of waiting players hoping to get a spot in that group. There were long stretches when I played on PC servers during EQ's heyday where I couldn't get a group to save my life. Bristlebane was among the biggest servers and reputation was hard to garner when people outlevel each other. No one became really familiar with a broad group of people until a player hit near max level and they started congregating in a couple specific zones for a prolonged period of time. Contrasting that with ESO, though, and there was definitely a greater sense of community in EQ without any doubt. I had rip roaring dungeon groups in ESO where we were chatting and having a good time, but the amount of communication afterwards was next to none. SoUncool posted:it was definitely an improvement to the previous set up, where you had a vast list of people online, but only had a way to contact a tiny fraction of it. What was this limitation on contacting people? I never played WoW, so I honestly have no clue how looking for groups worked.
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Sep 5, 2022 15:06
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P much the same issues you identified in EQ. There could be a thousand people online, but you only really had an effective way to communicate with a fraction of them. Either the people in your zone or in your guild. So if those people didn't need/want to dungeon run, you were SOL. If they wanted to, but the travel alone was going to take all the time you had to play, you were SOL. Dungeon Finder let you reach more people, made the travel requirement trivial, and gave you more time to play the game.
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Sep 5, 2022 15:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqYlBkPKnbk Ooh hey, a video about what ArcheAge is up to these days. I haven't kept up with this MMO in awhile. What is it doing nowadays? There is a new version of the game running now, called ArcheWorld, and it's NFT based.
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Sep 5, 2022 18:50
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Kevin Bacon posted:finding groups manually in chat is a bad idea, automatic match making is a bad idea. ready for a good idea? dungeon tinder. you swipe on user created profiles until you find a very sexy tank, healer or dps and if they like you back its off to the races Tanks selectively waiting for just the right profile, dps swiping right on everybody.
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Sep 5, 2022 19:05
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THE BAR posted:I'm pretty sure TBC had this whole sign-up menu, which wouldn't whisk you away to the dungeon, but did allows -someone- to invite the people on the list and get the group going. I just remember it also having vanilla dungeons and raids in it. Yeah, it did. Still in the game, actually, for raids and mythic plus dungeons.
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Sep 5, 2022 19:20
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Kevin Bacon posted:finding groups manually in chat is a bad idea, automatic match making is a bad idea. ready for a good idea? dungeon tinder. you swipe on user created profiles until you find a very sexy tank, healer or dps and if they like you back its off to the races  yeah. there would ideally be a solution between the three awful worlds of: 1. grouping up with with rando calrissians via dungeon finder then never cross paths again 2. waiting for ages to get into a group to do a camp or treking halfway across the world to a less optimal dungeon 3. putting together a static leveling/dungeon group, necessitating having friends
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Sep 5, 2022 21:47
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I'm a sicko who loved how grouping worked in EQ.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:03
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Groovelord Neato posted:I'm a sicko who loved how grouping worked in EQ.  Like I get all the downside, I just thought the upsides were worth it.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:06
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i liked eq grouping in highschool when the zones i wanted to level in were super populated and i didn't get invited to any real life parties, giving me both the time and means to team up with lots of other weird shutins to grind sarnaks
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Sep 5, 2022 22:12
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Liked it in original EQ then, like it in P99/ECO now. Just something really nice about finding a group and hanging out in one spot grinding down a camp and shooting the poo poo for an hour or two.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:16
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I belive in a diversity of options that provide unique experiences. Older systems had flaws, but they were necessary for the communities they formed. They also probably wouldn't really function that way in a post-addon / mega-discord world. Finding other ways to inspire community and provide opportunities for identity in the modern environment is a puzzle that, if solved will be awesome but also ephemeral and difficult to market.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:18
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I think it is the best of bunch of bad choices. In the context of grouping, it's good to encourage players to put themselves out there and communicate with each other. It is a time sink, but I agree that the benefits can be worth the costs. I've always wondered if there was a way to improve that method without becoming automated.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:21
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I think dungeons becoming wordless is more of a problem with WoW's community than a fault of the system conceptually. XIV has the same automated dungeon stuff and people are much more sociable overall in them I've noticed. Sure you still get a lot of silence but I don't really care about that either. WoW is mostly silence because the community is atrociously bad and people don't want to talk to eachother because of it, I feel. I do think having it by server rather than the entire game would help though. At least you'd see familiar names now and again.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:25
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cmdrk posted:
there's an MMO that squares this circle and it's city of heroes. community on each server is small enough that you'll play with the same people a lot, but large enough that groups fill fast and you don't need to play with jerks just to have a full group. you advertise for groups manually but on a server-wide channel, travel time is negligible because it's city of heroes, you can join lower-level or higher-level groups and still progress because it's city of heroes so it just bumps your effective level up or down to match the group leader. play city of heroes if you want the only MMO grouping experience that isn't poo poo
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Sep 5, 2022 22:33
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WoW (at least in the eras we're talking about) also handles/handled many of its dungeons differently from EQ due to the heavy instancing. In WoW you'd have to form a group in a town and then go to the dungeon, run it, and then either run it again or disband and go home or go to another dungeon together. In EQ you just go and walk into the dungeon and find a group there that's already in there doing things. And when you're done you just free up a slot for someone else who wants that group spot. It's a much more direct process with less friction. This especially if you've built out your friends list in-game and can get ports from friends to/from various places.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:44
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Sachant posted:Liked it in original EQ then, like it in P99/ECO now. Just something really nice about finding a group and hanging out in one spot grinding down a camp and shooting the poo poo for an hour or two. I do miss the much more chill nature of old school MMOs. I like rotations and positionals and all of that, but there was also something great about just chilling with your buds at a camp killing froglocks over and over that is missing from modern MMOs. I still think it's hilarious how many hours I put into an MMO class (rogue) where I basically just spammed one button forever.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:52
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active rotations make it real hard to carry on text conversations so there's definitely something to be said about the old eq rogues and whatnots
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Sep 5, 2022 23:04
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I think dungeons becoming wordless is more of a problem with WoW's community than a fault of the system conceptually. XIV has the same automated dungeon stuff and people are much more sociable overall in them I've noticed. Sure you still get a lot of silence but I don't really care about that either. WoW is mostly silence because the community is atrociously bad and people don't want to talk to eachother because of it, I feel. There's an argument a lot of purists use. Basically, the reason for the lack of communication is because the meta requires that players run through the dungeon and pull 3 rooms at once for AoE. There's no reason to communicate about which mob to sap or mez, the dungeons are linear experiences that don't require talking about the path we should take, and strategies are meant to be viewed on youtube before you even enter the dungeon. I tend to agree that this is one, but not the only, reason grouping is so mechanical. However, a lot of this meta forms after a certain amount of time has passed, and veteran players don't want to type "sap the left mob" after every pull like they did during launch. This forms the way an MMO is played organically. It is something everyone just "gets". For me, this is something I experienced for the first time when I was a new player in FFXIV. Yes, people were a lot more friendly and talkative, but they still pulled half the dungeon at once. I really disliked that, and it was the first time I quit playing the game, but not because I was mad at the players for doing it. I mean, I did the same thing in WoW when queueing as a tank for heroics. It just didn't feel like an MMO where we were explorers running a new dungeon for the first time. The immersion was gone, and I realized that I was just playing WoW, except I was the only one that didn't "get" it yet.
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Sep 5, 2022 23:06
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blatman posted:active rotations make it real hard to carry on text conversations so there's definitely something to be said about the old eq rogues and whatnots This, and also often they hardly add anything to the gameplay anyway aside from RSI.
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Sep 5, 2022 23:06
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People don't speak to each other because a dungeon is no longer a fun adventure into challenging or unknown places. It is a reward driven grind to be done as quickly as possible to maximise quantitative return on an hour and a half of play time. If you're talking you're slowing the group down tank tank tank pull pls pull tank pull cmon gogogo fkin poo poo group
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Sep 5, 2022 23:08
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If you havent played WoW in awhile, check your email your blizzard account is tied to, I got a email from blizzard to get shadowlands for free and a level boost to 50.
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Sep 6, 2022 00:16
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Cardboard Fox posted:For me, this is something I experienced for the first time when I was a new player in FFXIV. Yes, people were a lot more friendly and talkative, but they still pulled half the dungeon at once. I really disliked that, and it was the first time I quit playing the game, but not because I was mad at the players for doing it. I mean, I did the same thing in WoW when queueing as a tank for heroics. It just didn't feel like an MMO where we were explorers running a new dungeon for the first time. The immersion was gone, and I realized that I was just playing WoW, except I was the only one that didn't "get" it yet. I had the exact same experience in LOTRO recently. I last played the game at launch and hit it up again when they released the new servers. I loved it, it’s atmospheric with a wonderfully crafted world, but then I ran my first dungeon and it was an absolute steamroll. Everyone went so fast (and beat me there) so that by the time I caught up we were 3/4 done. I was able to finish my quests and get some loot and all that, but it felt like I basically fast forwarded through some important plot points and there was nothing I could do about it. It was really off putting and I lost interest in the game pretty soon afterwards. It’s a shame because it’s a huge, cool world to explore but in the end it feels hollow because it’s treated like a game to speed run (or a chore) instead of a game world by everyone who plays it. kedo fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Sep 6, 2022 |
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Sep 6, 2022 02:31
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Anyone who says that group finder is bad is a loving sicko gently caress and needs reeducation camp
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Sep 6, 2022 02:43
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Give me one non psychopath gamer reason why group finder is bad.
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Sep 6, 2022 02:45
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Rexicon1 posted:Anyone who says that group finder is bad is a loving sicko gently caress and needs reeducation camp And yet you're the one advocating for brainwashing.
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Sep 6, 2022 02:50
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Bruceski posted:And yet you're the one advocating for brainwashing. Come here Gamer, it’s time to go in The Box
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Sep 6, 2022 02:52
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Group finding help is pure good, group making has the downside of taking away a social aspect of the game. It might seem small, but breaking that ice with even an "inv" is I think something worth preserving if you can. Like how ftp devs want you to spend any money at all to break the pay barrier, I think it's good for the talk barrier to be broken for every group formed. Though people have made good arguments that the instances and reward structures themselves are as/more important to this.
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Sep 6, 2022 02:58
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I dunno, MMO dungeons are a lot like going bar hopping. Sometimes you go with your friends and do your thing and have a good time. Sometimes you go it alone and end up with strangers, and you can still have a good time, or you might have a weird quiet lonely time. Also, much like bar hopping, it's something I enjoyed doing 15-20 years ago much more than I do now
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Sep 6, 2022 03:11
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kedo posted:I had the exact same experience in LOTRO recently. I last played the game at launch and hit it up again when they released the new servers. I loved it, it’s atmospheric with a wonderfully crafted world, but then I ran my first dungeon and it was an absolute steamroll. Everyone went so fast (and beat me there) so that by the time I caught up we were 3/4 done. I was able to finish my quests and get some loot and all that, but it felt like I basically fast forwarded through some important plot points and there was nothing I could do about it. Cardboard Fox posted:For me, this is something I experienced for the first time when I was a new player in FFXIV. Yes, people were a lot more friendly and talkative, but they still pulled half the dungeon at once. I really disliked that, and it was the first time I quit playing the game, but not because I was mad at the players for doing it. I mean, I did the same thing in WoW when queueing as a tank for heroics. It just didn't feel like an MMO where we were explorers running a new dungeon for the first time. The immersion was gone, and I realized that I was just playing WoW, except I was the only one that didn't "get" it yet. Feel like I should be making some overarching point but I don't really have one, other than the fact that established mmos with dungeon finders all have the same problem where there's differing motivations for old and new players running the same content. Only way around it is making the extra effort to try and form groups yourself, which 90% of players won't do so long as there is a readymade option, and maybe even when there isn't one.
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Sep 6, 2022 04:16
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To be fair, FF14 dungeons are basically designed to be pulled in large chunks. The ARR dungeons have very few hard walls to your progress, so an experienced tank and healer can grab quite a lot of mobs all at once and rotate cooldowns while DPS AOEs them down. The expansions put in more hard walls to slow groups down, but also codify that tanks should really be pulling 2-3 packs at a time and the role has been designed around that.
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Sep 6, 2022 04:57
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The issue with dungeons is that the sort of thing a first time runner wants to do and the sort of thing the person who's ran this five times wants to do are very different and unfortunately you have more of the latter than the former in any game that hasn't just been launched.
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Sep 6, 2022 08:30
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I'm sorry to poo poo up the thread like this but can anyone tell me if these is a Tetem thread? For those of us who might be wanting to discuss it and stuff.
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Sep 6, 2022 09:32
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Terra-da-loo! posted:I'm sorry to poo poo up the thread like this but can anyone tell me if these is a Tetem thread? For those of us who might be wanting to discuss it and stuff. You're not making GBS threads up a thread, but for future reference there's a Index thread stickied in Games itself, and a Temtem thread here that hasn't seen a post since March last year https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3912324&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=3
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