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Yeah, unfortunately, the school uniform thing was pretty easy to see that they would do it because that uniform style is very popular in Japan, especially in historical romances and historical drama set-pieces. For a lot of the younger folk in Japan whose main exposure to it is TV, manga, and sometimes games, it seems very innocent (a lot of the source material that uses that uniform style is usually divorced from the wars or at least maintain a distance from it, like those "waiting for loves to come back from war" situations). But it doesn't maintain the same sort of innocence when looked at by people who had to deal with the cultural implications of it.
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Sep 5, 2022 15:30
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Ibblebibble posted:Ehhhhh, Doman architecture doesn't look very Nara period to me. Feels more Tang dynasty. What are the big differences? As I understood it, Nara was when Japan was at the height of trying to be Tang China, and...well, "Doma is intended to be this Japan" is probably less worse then "Doma is very Tang China, but what if this Japan stuff was in charge, hmmmmm?" Really, there's a lot to talk about on the subject of Stormblood and it's relationship with East Asia in general, but there's also still plenty of Othard left in Stormblood to add to that conversation. EDIT: Mister Olympus posted:i wonder if this is one of the last hiccups between the vague sketch of the story that they had in 2.x, compared to the clearly-defined lore and story trajectory that solidified around 3.2, that they just couldn't fix. doma was established as the home of samurai and ninjas and everyone has a japanese name, but also it's conquered by garlemald, but also now that we're introducing samurai we need a premise for its job quests that isn't super intimately tied to the MSQ and a non-ruined city to be the far eastern market board hub... and then this Argas posted:My pet theory is that they established Doma as fantasy Japan in 2.xx, but then realized that they really wanted to depict a fantasy Edo because that's basically a guilty pleasure when Stormblood was in the works. So they invent Hingashi, section it off with a sakoku degree, then run back to Doma and call it the The more I look at Stormblood through watching this LP, the more I can see this - specifically with Doma being established early on as fantasy Japan, but then the big cool fantasy-techno-Edo of Kugane was too cool an idea to not include, and they're making zones and they WANT a vaguely "China-inspired" area and you get Yanxia with it's very Chinese name...and then it just became a weird mess in how it all interacted. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 21:15
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FF14 is also being graded on a curve here. political/historical grudges finding their way to fantasy fiction is not a problem limited to the anglosphere, and there is no shortage of Japanese works where "people are just making up all the atrocities we supposedly committed on them to make us look bad" barely even bothers to be subtext. the trials of the denizens of NotChina at the hands of their imperial overlords being treated as serious, awful, and immiserating is more of a genre subversion than it looks, and so i'm willing to cut the decision to establish that NotChina is defined by its samurai and ninjas some slack.
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Sep 5, 2022 22:21
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ProfessorCirno posted:What are the big differences? As I understood it, Nara was when Japan was at the height of trying to be Tang China, and...well, "Doma is intended to be this Japan" is probably less worse then "Doma is very Tang China, but what if this Japan stuff was in charge, hmmmmm?" We haven't gotten there yet but (architecture spoilers I guess?  ) Doma castle undeniably references Hakka-chinese traditional tulou. Pointing to that and saying its just imitating chinese imperials is....really really wrong
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Sep 5, 2022 22:34
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Purely from a utilitarian perspective, Doma was always going to be a challenge to include because the devastation was played up from Yugiri's introduction, so even a Rhalgr's Reach-style hub would have been difficult to justify without another foothold in the region; it's possible for Ala Mhigo because the Eorzean Alliance at least has Gridania and Baelsar's Wall as fairly close points to fall back to, but going out to the far east means a long trek overland through occupied territory, or by sea (airship travel would be very dicey, logistically, particularly since Garlemald still has supremacy over their airspace). The latter means a safe harbor, if only to have somewhere to strike out from - even before drawing up a map, Doma is known to be in shambles, so it can't really be a Doman port. Plus, Garlemald owns the territory, and likely any nearby useful ports on the same continent. An isolationist island nation is an easy fix for this situation, because that presents a lesser immediate threat to the Empire, especially if they're willing to trade from other territories yet to fall to the Empire (thereby still being of use as a "neutral" state before being taken officially into the fold). And, well, there's this rather well-known place to the writers that had an isolationist period... Then that just leaves the additional issue of Doma not being this island nation...
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Sep 5, 2022 23:05
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Also I want to mention that I'm very glad Sang highlighted the quest to deliver flowers to that grave. It's a effective way to hammer home the real extent of the death and devastation suffered upon Doma, a fantastic bit of organic environmental storytelling.
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Sep 5, 2022 23:18
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Hogama posted:Purely from a utilitarian perspective, Doma was always going to be a challenge to include because the devastation was played up from Yugiri's introduction, so even a Rhalgr's Reach-style hub would have been difficult to justify without another foothold in the region; it's possible for Ala Mhigo because the Eorzean Alliance at least has Gridania and Baelsar's Wall as fairly close points to fall back to, but going out to the far east means a long trek overland through occupied territory, or by sea (airship travel would be very dicey, logistically, particularly since Garlemald still has supremacy over their airspace). The latter means a safe harbor, if only to have somewhere to strike out from - even before drawing up a map, Doma is known to be in shambles, so it can't really be a Doman port. Plus, Garlemald owns the territory, and likely any nearby useful ports on the same continent. An isolationist island nation is an easy fix for this situation, because that presents a lesser immediate threat to the Empire, especially if they're willing to trade from other territories yet to fall to the Empire (thereby still being of use as a "neutral" state before being taken officially into the fold). And, well, there's this rather well-known place to the writers that had an isolationist period...
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Sep 5, 2022 23:38
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I think they really wanted to have Othard be this mix of different Asian nations rather than just being the singular Oriental nation representing the East that lots of Western works fall into the trap of being, hence how you get Kugane being this neutral hub while Yanxia and Doma are distinct from it. This gets messier with samurai and ninja being used throughout Yanxia, as well as Japan's own messy history with other Asian nations though. I did appreciate Vietnam's representation in Othard, by way of being referred to as Nagxia, which you can never actually visit yourself, but you can end up picking up Nagxian materials to be able to craft the ao dai, quan, and non la.
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Sep 6, 2022 00:29
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GilliamYaeger posted:Personally I would have just had Kugane be the shiny and pretty front for the rest of the world that Garlemald is putting on for occupied Doma (and is, incidentally, where the Garleans live), while the country behind it is in squalor. This, but make Kugane be the city where the Doman collaborators live. Have Karasu taunt Oboro with the fact that he and Gekkai were given opulent palaces in Kugane as payment for their treason while their home village was burned to the ground. Something like that. Make it clear that the only reason you're not arrested the moment you set foot in the city is that you're in disguise, which makes it even more fun later when Hancock tells you that practically everyone knows who you are, but they won't touch you because the rest of Doma is so badly destroyed that the East Aldenard company is literally the only thing keeping Kugane's economy from crashing.
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Sep 6, 2022 00:38
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I could see something like that fishing village in the western part of the Ruby Sea being reimagined as the heavily industrial, recently/still being constructed Imperial Provincial Capital while still keeping Kugane, maybe?
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Sep 6, 2022 01:02
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Allarion posted:I did appreciate Vietnam's representation in Othard, by way of being referred to as Nagxia, which you can never actually visit yourself, but you can end up picking up Nagxian materials to be able to craft the ao dai, quan, and non la. Guoc and banh xeo too!
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Sep 6, 2022 01:07
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Regalingualius posted:I could see something like that fishing village in the western part of the Ruby Sea being reimagined as the heavily industrial, recently/still being constructed Imperial Provincial Capital while still keeping Kugane, maybe?
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Sep 6, 2022 01:16
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GilliamYaeger posted:Personally I would have just had Kugane be the shiny and pretty front for the rest of the world that Garlemald is putting on for occupied Doma (and is, incidentally, where the Garleans live), while the country behind it is in squalor. Yeah, I would have preferred this.
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Sep 6, 2022 08:28
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That'd kind of require going back to rewrite ARR, because the line then was that Doma was razed to make a point to the rest of the world because of their open rebellion, which they attempted upon news of Emperor Solus's death and the subsequent civil war in the Empire. Varis only assumed the throne towards the end of ARR, ending that conflict. Yugiri had fled with the refugees at the tail end of the Doman fighting, so she wasn't even around to see the worst of the aftermath. It might be nice if the writers didn't operate under their wonderfully indeterminate time bubble, but they just generally write under the assumption that it hasn't really been all that long since then. Under the circumstances, they don't really need to pretend that occupied Doma is thriving at the moment.
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Sep 6, 2022 09:29
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Hogama posted:That'd kind of require going back to rewrite ARR, because the line then was that Doma was razed to make a point to the rest of the world because of their open rebellion, which they attempted upon news of Emperor Solus's death and the subsequent civil war in the Empire. Varis only assumed the throne towards the end of ARR, ending that conflict. Yugiri had fled with the refugees at the tail end of the Doman fighting, so she wasn't even around to see the worst of the aftermath. It might be nice if the writers didn't operate under their wonderfully indeterminate time bubble, but they just generally write under the assumption that it hasn't really been all that long since then. Under the circumstances, they don't really need to pretend that occupied Doma is thriving at the moment.
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Sep 6, 2022 09:39
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I just really don't think there's a scenario out there where anybody writing the game would want to have you operating undercover out of a Garlean stronghold as a central hub city, at least before a direct push into their main territory, which Stormblood was unlikely to have been even with some geographical tweaking.
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Sep 6, 2022 09:56
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Historically, the ‘nice’ places under imperial control tended to be the former capitals under the most direct imperial control. In an expansion very much about examining the plight of the common people and how imperialism warps a culture, I can understand not wanting to… dilute? It with the Garlean diorama of why they’re right to stomp on faces presentation. But also yeah, a few people on the dev team absolutely slammed down a “fantasy Nagasaki” concept when they sat down to create the stormblood hub city.
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Sep 6, 2022 13:20
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I personally think of Hien's actions here as being extremely instructive about his character and I look forward to us discussing them in more detail.
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Sep 6, 2022 22:52
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Chapter 16: A View to a Kill Yugiri’s response to hearing that Zenos has come to Doma is immediate: she wants to assassinate him. It’s not surprising that she suggests it, exactly. She is a shinobi; this sort of work is her wheelhouse. But it serves as further evidence of how much emotional turmoil she’s in after recent events. ‘Reckless’ is pretty far down the list of adjectives one would typically apply to her. For anyone who might doubt the suggestion is crazy, the Principal Cast takes the time to create an itemized list of reasons. Alisaie points out that the man crushed the Ala Mhigan Resistance, the Eorzean Alliance, the Scions, and the Warrior of Light. At the same time and more-or-less single-handedly no less! She also notes that this power “defies explanation,” which I thought was an interesting turn of phrase. Until then, I hadn’t considered that there might be more to Zenos’ strength than massive badassery. She doesn’t elaborate on whatever suspicion might be behind her comment, but it’s something to file away. Lyse clenches her fist at the memory of that battle and her humiliation at Zenos’ hands but bites her tongue rather than support Yugiri’s idea. If Punch-Girl isn’t convinced punching somebody is the best plan, you know you’re in treacherous waters. However, the real shock is Gosetsu, who argues fervently against such a strike. While he shares Yugiri’s desire for revenge, the larger picture is that killing the Crown Prince of the Garlean Empire will have dire consequences. At a bare minimum, even the attempt will ensure full-scale war in spite of Hien’s wishes that we follow the will of the Doman people. Yugiri retorts that if they ignore this opportunity, Hien’s wishes won’t amount to much because he’ll be dead. Gosetsu sidesteps this point and notes that killing Zenos will not set Doma free. Indeed, the death of the heir to the Empire will invite retribution to put the Glittering Basin to shame. His words seem to penetrate Yugiri’s outrage for a moment, but then she stands defiant:  She turns her back on us and leaves the House of the Fierce. The Scions consider going after her, but Gosetsu holds back. He insists that she has to realize what she’s considering is folly on her own. Hopefully, she'll come to understand a hidden truth behind Hien’s orders in the process.  He will not, however, bar Kheris’ way if she wants to go after her friend. She finds Yugiri alone in a secluded canyon, reading a message carried by a hawk. The ninja asks if Kheris came on Gosetsu’s order to stop her, but Kheris indicates she’s here for her own reasons. Yugiri assumes that even the mighty hero agrees that her plan is rash and foolhardy, but she argues that she’s thought it through more than anyone credited. One of the Liberation Front’s spies in Doma Castle has provided her with an itinerary. Zenos has come on his father’s orders to investigate concerns that the Alliance’s offensive might motivate subversive elements in the provinces. The prince intends to fulfill that mission and return to his hunt as soon as possible. To facilitate haste, he’s refused more than a handful of guards and plans to begin with a tour of the Moon Gates this very night. We’ll never get another chance this good, she argues. No guards, local authorities in disarray, and a giant magical barrier between him and the nearest reinforcements? It's a perfect scenario. She knows that despite these conditions, she’s likely to be killed. Yet she is convinced that it will be worth the sacrifice if Zenos dies with her. She believes, or at least desperately wants to believe, that Doma and Ala Mhigo can overcome everything else the Empire can throw at them if only this one threat is removed. In an ironic turn of phrase, she evokes the Warriors of Darkness, saying that “one life for that world,” is a price she is happy to pay.  I was pretty surprised when the game revealed that the Warrior of Light came out there planning to help Yugiri rather than talk her down. I wonder if the character was on the fence on some level until that unintentional reference to Ardbert. You can see a change in pose and expression right after Yugiri says that line. Did the memory of his plight and earnest request to find a path that avoids his fate help tip the scales? But after giving it some thought, I know why Kheris had to go along, regardless of the odds or the risk. Yugiri is in pain. Her heart is broken, and the void where it used to be is filling up with rage. It’s a sensation that Kheris remembers with crystal clarity. She felt it on the day she went into Halitali to rescue Raubahn. Or rather, the day she went into Halitali to kill Ilberd. quote:I make sure to switch off my headgear before I head in. I want Ilberd and his cronies to see my face when they meet the business end of my knives. They'll understand that when they decided to take Lolorito's money, they were being paid to die. Like all my namedays come at once… Kheris walked into that trap without a second thought, and almost got herself, her friends, and the person she’d come to rescue killed when Yuyuhase set off the poison bomb. She’d told herself that rushing in half-cocked was necessary to save Raubahn, but the truth is that her wish for revenge was burning her up that day. She’d have gone in even if Raubahn hadn’t been there for the chance to lay hands on that madman. Thankfully, she wasn’t there alone. She had people who were thinking clearly and had their eyes open. They were there to bail her out when things went south and make sure her mission succeeded. They made sure she got out alive. When her need was greatest, Kheris had Aliphinaud… and Kheris had Yugiri. Now, Yugiri has Kheris. They set off for the Moon Gate. But the camera lingers to show they were not alone in that canyon.  Oh dear… ~*~*~ The two ninjas cross the Glittering Basin and stand before the Moongate. I notice something I missed the first time: up close, things aren’t quite as lifeless as they appeared from a distance. Aside from the local critters, some grass and a few shrubs are starting to grow again despite the destruction. Perhaps it’s a good omen for the task at hand. We arrive at the remains of the village surrounding Yuzuka Manor, one of the few intact buildings. Its courtyard is closed off behind a stone wall, its roof gives a good view of the town square, and it will allow us to easily hit anyone who passes by on the road from two directions, thereby preventing their escape—the perfect site for an ambush. Once we're in position, we’re not kept waiting long. A contingent of about a half-dozen Garlean soldiers appears, moving at a leisurely pace toward the valley villages. At their center, we see Yotsuyu… and with her, our quarry. He's in Bored Aristocrat mode, showing off those courtly manners with a comment about how Doma resembles a graveyard more than a province. He also blithely hopes that those seeds of fear and hatred he sewed years ago will produce somebody worth killing instead of a bunch of sniveling cowards.  It seems our heroes are about to make his day. The hunter becomes the hunted when Yugiri strikes down his rear guard without a sound, alerting none to her presence. Kheris moves to the front, eyeing the point-man. She’ll attack if Yugiri’s first strike fails, but how could it? The approach was perfect. Even with two dead, the Garleans are oblivious. The moment arrives, and Yugiri goes for the head!  “Lol,” said the Crown Prince, “lmao.” After he insults Yugiri’s hatred for being weaker than he hoped, we get a nice shot of his Golf Bag. A familiar white hilt is on display, and he comments to Yotsuyu that he might test her gift on these assassins to see if it’s worth forgiving her failures… but then he thinks better of it and says we’ll have to EARN the new toy. Spin the wheel, Raggedy Man.  At first, Kheris’ second bout with Zenos goes far better than the first. I note his level is still 70, but the gap has been closed since she is now 65. Fewer of her attacks miss, and the damage of each hit is far greater. The struggles she faced sailing from Eorzea, her battles in the Ruby Sea, and the duel with Susano have helped her achieve a new level of skill. Plus, she got those workouts in with the Marauder's Guild, so she’s JACKED now! Zenos’ moves are mostly the same as he wielded last time, but you can tell he’s taking you more seriously. He moves across the battlefield faster, auto-attacks more often, and if you let his big moves hit you, they’re as devastating as ever. With a new sword also comes a new trick. Instead of the easily shattered phantom blades, Zenos now summons untargetable ‘Lightless Flames,’ which blast out a massive circle of AOE damage. There is no way to remove these; you can only avoid them while dodging all Zenos’ other moves until they fade. I saw as many as five up at a time, which shrinks the combat area considerably and tests your spatial awareness. While that fight progresses, Yugiri faces the entire bodyguard contingent by herself. She boasted earlier that this fight would be two-on-one because no number of troops would be a problem, and she puts her money where her mouth is by killing three of them while Kheris dances with the prince. Zenos seems downright amused as they fall, even taunting Yugiri by asking her how long she will keep him waiting while she fights the small-fry. Yotsuyu contributes by cowering off to the side and calling the soldiers idiots for losing while they have the numerical advantage. It almost seemed out of character for her. She’s been so blasé about her near-death moments. Then again, maybe she fears capture in a way she doesn’t fear dying. Eventually, Zenos’ life begins to dwindle, and he announces that we’re worthy to see his new weapon. Yugiri’s had enough of his BS and unleashes her Ninja LB3 in an attempt to shut him up once and for all:  The attack takes a chunk from his life bar, but he doesn’t even flinch as he draws the white sword. Just the act of the weapon leaving its sheath unleashes a pulse of darkness which kills the remaining guards, slams Yugiri to the ground, and blows Kheris back 30 yards, nearly killing her. Zenos calls the weapon “Ame-no-Habakiri,” which translates to the feathered cutter of heaven. The weapon envelops him in a crimson aura. Then, echoing our battle in Rhalgr’s Reach, he swings once.  Recently, I told you guys one of the most important myths linked to the real-life Susano. In the story, he faced the rampaging eight-headed serpent Yamata-no-Orochi. This creature was said to be as long as eight hills and eight valleys combined and would terrorize the mortal realm’s humans by eating their virgin daughters. In exchange for the last survivor of eight daughters being made his wife, Susano swore to slay the great snake. Since the beast was so deadly that he dared not engage it in combat, Susano schemed to get the creature so drunk that it would pass out. Once this was one, he chopped it to pieces, a task which was herculean even without the fight because of the sheer size and toughness of its body. The sword he used to butcher this impossibly powerful monster was Ame-no-Habakiri. Considering Susano found Kusanagi inside the Orochi’s tail and would have made it his new weapon of choice if he hadn’t given it to his sister, one could reasonably argue Ame is the second most potent blade in all Japanese mythology. From this point, it’s another curb stomp. Zenos was fully-healed when he drew the sword, and now Kheris’ attacks barely scratch him. On top of all his old abilities, he now summons phantasmal copies of himself, which mirror his attacks. Yugiri desperately tries to rise and help, but her wound is too much for her. For all her progress, Kheris is right back where she started, fighting an unbeatable foe. What appeared to be steps forward were nothing but running in place. Is this a microcosm for our struggle against the Empire? Is every move against the juggernaut of Garlemald nothing but us lying to ourselves? Kheris can’t accept that. She fights on, using every skill at her disposal, inflicting damage one grain of sand at a time. But once again, it’s all for naught. Zenos unleashed all the sword’s power in a single omnidirectional burst, and once again, the Warrior of Light collapses to her knees. She is at his mercy. Zenos admits she’s better than most despite still finding her wanting. Indeed, she’s impressed him enough that he even manages to recall her face. He seems bemused by the presence of “The Champion of the Savages,” on the far side of the world, but not so bemused that he will stay his hand. As he draws back the sword, Kheris’ head sags, as if she no longer possesses the strength to hold it high… or perhaps to imply that she has accepted her death. But then, unbidden, Urianger’s voice fills her mind. She recalls the prophecy he shared at the docks.   Crimson embers, darkening skies… the sword? Did the unknown prophet foresee that in the East, where the sun rises, all would seem lost when a red blade wreathed in dark flames struck? But if that’s so, what meaning does the second passage hold? What is the squall, and where in the West will we find it? What is azure, and why is it lost? It seems silly to ask questions like that when Kheris is moments from death, but perhaps it is a sign that this cannot be the end of her story. Destiny has more she needs to see. Salvation arrives, either by Nymeia’s blessing, the fate written by The Stars, or sheer dumb luck. Once again, it takes the form of the sound of snapping metal.  …  Kheris raises her head, as full of defiance as she ever was despite her helplessness. For the first time, Zenos addresses her with what feels like complete honesty.   The delivery of these lines left my eyes wide. His tone almost sounds like… a plea. There is legitimate excitement, breathy anticipation. But at the same time, it’s practically like he’s begging her to do as he asks. The emphasis on that final “Live,” has a distinct note of yearning. That one glancing blow has changed everything for Zenos. After everything we’ve seen from him, the genius and the apathy, could it be that his desire is for something as simple as a fight he’s not sure he can win? Zenos sheaths his blade just as Yugiri finally summons the strength to rise one last time. She charges, but she’s down again in a blink. We see he stopped her with the purple sword, not the white, and he smugly lets her know that she is unworthy. Whatever truth he revealed speaking to Kheris is gone, and he steps forward almost lazily to finish her off. Or does he?  …  With only a mob of Doman villagers carrying farm tools and hunting implements at his back, Isse looks at the man who will inherit the world and tells him to step off! HELL YEAH! Yugiri, being the compassionate fool she is, begs them to run. After all, they have no hope against this monster. Isse tells her to cram it. She shouldn’t be here. None of us should be here. This entire plan was idiotic, and choosing to help her was an even dumber move. But after everything he’s seen, he’d rather die than choke down one more mouthful of ‘smart.’   …  …  I’m not going to lie; seeing her cry like that got me going just a smidge.  The prince is unimpressed. He prepares to butcher the entire group where they stand, but Alisaie is ready for him. She instant-casts a healing spell so Kheris will be able to move, then follows it up with a smoke bomb. Gosetsu steps in and extracts Yugiri, and everyone runs for the hills. Zenos counters by… turning around and walking away. Yotsuyu hustles after him in total confusion. We see he’s wearing that same smile as when he learned the Alliance had seized Baelsar’s Wall. It seems he’s pleased with the Doman ‘harvest’ after all. ~*~*~ After our escape, Alis informs us that Alphinaud engineered this little rescue. Isse came to the House of the Fierce once he decided what he wanted to do, and it happened to be right around the same time our boy showed up for a visit. When Alphi discovered what Yugiri and Kheris were doing, he led the charge in arming and organizing the villagers. Alis makes a crack about what a panic he was in, which prompts Gosetsu to tease that Alis was just as bad. However, we can’t spoil her aloof cool-girl image, so we all agree to let that slide. Isse is bursting with adrenaline and joy. Nobody can believe that they just faced Zenos yae Galvus and survived. People are already talking about how this will be the first day of another Doman Rebellion. The weight of their shame has been replaced with pride and righteous fury. And the best part is that they did it on their own. Yugiri lit the torch, and Kheris helped her carry it, but the villagers made their own stand. It’s everything Kheris ever wanted as Warrior of Light. Kheris isn’t the only one who got a wish granted, either. We take Yugiri back to Namai to recuperate, and after some rest, she apologizes to Gosetsu. She defied Hien’s orders and risked everyone’s lives on a fool’s errand, just like he warned her, and the only reason she’s alive is that he violated their Lord’s wishes as well. Except every word she just said was wrong.  The hidden meaning of Hien’s order that Gosetsu kept alluding to is, ironically, something Yugiri was already preaching to the other Domans. She knows he values the lives of the people of Doma above his birthright and the abstractions of duty. Now she finally understands that he intended her to be included in that message. For all my speculation, Hien was not leaving the choice to the Doman people because he feared the burden of leadership. He did it only because he didn’t want any more people to die out of some sense of obligation. If they are to risk their lives, let it be because the prize is something they genuinely want. It made me remember Papalymo’s words from Patch 3.5: “The business of war was ever conducted with the coin of self-sacrifice.” Hien wants the emphasis to be on the SELF. With lessons learned all around, Alphinaud and Lyse show themselves. The latter apologizes for not coming to the fight. Alis forced her to stay behind because she was certain Lyse would get killed trying to fight Zenos rather than assist the ‘Run Away’ plan. As for Alphi, he’s come bearing critical intel. It seems that a popular uprising of the Doman people might just be sufficient to take back the country without additional Alliance troops. The bulk of the Garlean military has been withdrawn from Doma to reinforce other fronts, leaving little beyond the garrison at the castle to guard the entire region. Yugiri mentioned that the Empire considers Doma a backwater and tends to ship its most useless troops here, but this is far better than we could have hoped. If we can reach Doma Castle, we can theoretically bring down Yotsuyu’s regime with nothing but local forces. But they'll need someone to lead them. The time has finally come to bring Hien home. Alphi and Alis agree to remain in Yanxia and prepare for war. The rest of us will head to the Azim Steppe to deliver the young king the answer he’s been waiting for. Funnily enough, Lyse is even more eager than Gosetsu and Yugiri to meet this man, and for a fascinating reason:    The two halves of this war story might just be preparing to converge. Meanwhile, at Doma Castle:  OOOOOH, boy, that’s uncomfortable. Um… let’s start at the beginning. Zenos makes a cryptic comment to his lieutenant that there is some “prize,” he wants to see personally. He’ll need to travel by airship to reach it, so he’s washing his hands of Doma once again. That being the case, he decides that Yotsuyu needs a bit of a ‘pep talk.’ To make sure she gets the message, he delivers his speech while yanking on a big fistful of her hair. Seeing this gigantic armored dude physically bend a skinny silk-dress-clad woman to his will like that is really icky, even knowing she’s the mastermind of a genocidal race war. It speaks symbolically to the power dynamics at play here. Yotsuyu is nothing of value to the Garleans. Even though she’s risen to rule a province, she’s a proxy for the Crown Prince himself, and she’s the one who delivered Doma to them in the first place, she’s still utterly disposable. Indeed, Zenos goes out of his way to belittle Yotsuyu’s accomplishments, saying she did nothing but whisper the right words in the right ears and is utterly undeserving of power. To make sure this sticks in her mind, he explains why he delegated rule to her in the first place despite holding her in contempt:  This one line tells us so much when placed in our greater context. Zenos knows all about Yotsuyu’s lust for the extermination of the Domans, and he doesn’t care. Indeed, it’s why he put her in charge! But how do we square this with punishing his troops to avoid breaking the Doman’s spirits? Well, aside from the fact that it happened after he gave up on actually finding worthy prey here, it’s also down to Zenos acquiescing to the wishes of Emperor Varis. Lord Giant Hat wanted Doma made into an example after the rebellion, and Zenos found the best person to do precisely that. Between this, coming to Doma for that inspection, his comments about holding back from attacking the Alliance nations, and an off-handed word to his assistant that Varis won’t object to whatever he’s doing next, Zenos seems to be oddly dutiful to his father. Granted, he obeys only the letter of the order and seems annoyed by having to do so. But it’s still noteworthy that he feels compelled to at least play at being The Emperor’s Worthy Heir. Is inheriting the throne important to him for some reason despite his apparent disdain for this “ephemeral world,” or is he just doing what he must to keep access to privileges that enable his lifestyle? Or is there something else at play entirely? This exchange also gives us a much clearer picture of Zenos’ mind. It’s plain that he did not leave the torment of Doma to Yotsuyu because he objected to doing it himself. In line with that first scene where he leaves the Ala Mhigans to suffer from the floods caused by Shinryu and Omega’s battle, he obviously has no interest in the well-being of anyone. Unless, of course, that well-being might motivate them to fight better. Whether he is sparing the families of his enemies or concocting elaborate schemes to shatter their confidence without making them too desperate, it seems that every action during these military campaigns is a complicated social experiment intended to produce a worthy opponent. Everything else is a disinteresting distraction, which is why he continually shirks his obligations to rule these provinces if there’s no fighting to be done. But on the other hand, that still doesn’t fully explain everything he’s done. He pardoned Gryne for his failure, he murdered that Garlean general for refusing to lead from the front, he respected Fordola and saw to the well-being of her soldiers, and he included Beastfolk and conquered humans in his personal Legion. Are all these just extensions of his desire to find a worthy foe? Does this man have layers, or is it just one layer twisted into a rat’s nest? And while we’re at it, why is he like this? What made Zenos so disdainful of everything except the thrill of battle? We still need to go deeper. The Crown Prince delivers his final ultimatum: if Yotsuyu loses control of Doma to the rebels, her life is forfeit. No second chances. As I said, she’s as disposable as any other filthy sub-human to the Empire. When he departs, Gryne tries to comfort her… which earns him a slap so massive he goes flying across the room, armor and all. Didn’t you tell him to act more chivalrous even if it was pretending, lady? But there’s no time to worry about hypocrisy! Revenge against Kheris isn’t going to wreak itself.  We’ve seen Yotsuyu cruel, sadistic, whiny, murderous, and emotionally dead, but now we see something new: actual rage. I feel like we’re going to know this side of her intimately. Tune in next time when w-  Hmm? What’s this?  …  ESTINIEN?! Aww, FF14 writers, you didn’t need to get me a present! WAIT! AZURE! IN THE WEST!  HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIII-
Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 00:46
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Sanguinia posted:Plus, she got those workouts in with the Pugilist Guild, so she’s JACKED now!  Pugilist, eh?
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Sep 10, 2022 01:12
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DoubleNegative posted:
Sorry, I meant Marauder. My bad.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:12
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Sanguinia posted:Sorry, I meant Marauder. My bad. One day Kheris will unleash her inner punchmans and all will be right with the world.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:15
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Yugiri is the best
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Sep 10, 2022 01:28
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See I think you're a lot more charitable about Hien's motivations than I am. Given that Hien and Yugiri are close friends, I've always seen it as Hien being somewhat cold-blooded, accepting that he'll need to goad Yugiri into a death-or-glory effort to motivate Doma's people to rise up - because she is his shinobi and his close friend and would never willingly allow her friend to offer himself up for slaughter as the price of peace?
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Sep 10, 2022 01:29
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Something that ties into much earlier thoughts of "abridged reality" that I thought the Yanxia segment particularly highlighted (but didn't bring up last time) - we're told that the people rounded up at the castrum were from numerous villages around the country but Namai's the only one we've seen. Bit of a pity, since if this was ARR, Yanxia'd probably have been split into numerous maps with at least one town in each zone. But I figure the unseen villages are probably meant to be in similar states, as well. As for Zenos and Yotsuyu - well, it's certainly not to absolve her of a whit of culpability in her own actions, but it often escapes the conversation that she's also in a bit of a precarious situation of her own since her treatment of Doma is expected of her appointment, and someone would have been going about it even she died during the (first) Doman Rebellion. We even see that Zenos is satisfied with how the Domans have turned out, and immediately turns around and orders her to ramp up the cruelty upon pain of certain death.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:29
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This chapters been a really interesting perspective. A lot of people aren't/weren't fans of this segment because you go along with a clearly bad idea. It's also a decision made by the warrior of light rather than following orders, which always brings a risk of dissonance from the player's view. I find the way the game handles its protagonist very interesting, and as you saw, the core of the wol is quite consistent. I really like your insights on Zenos. I'll have to wait for more story to actually comment on it, so I'll just say that quote:Does this man have layers, or is it just one layer twisted into a rat’s nest? is a really great line
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Sep 10, 2022 01:31
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Wrestlepig posted:This chapters been a really interesting perspective. A lot of people aren't/weren't fans of this segment because you go along with a clearly bad idea. It's also a decision made by the warrior of light rather than following orders, which always brings a risk of dissonance from the player's view. I find the way the game handles its protagonist very interesting, and as you saw, the core of the wol is quite consistent. For all that I adore Yugiri as a character, I am one of these people, and in part it's because at the time I was frustrated with having another unwinnable boss fight against the same dude. I was angry at the game that I felt like the writers thought I hadn't gotten the message about Zenos yet, in my eyes. That twice now, things were going fine until Zenos, beat it scamp. I still think it's one of a few points where Stormblood's storytelling is too heavy-handed for its own good, and in particular keeps violating what is to me an important guideline about good storytelling: we the players see far more of Zenos than the WoL does.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:45
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I was ambivalent on Zenos 2, but later I came to appreciate it as a plot point. This write-up made me like it as much as Zenos 1! But will Verg-er, I mean-Zenos 3 continue this trend? Time will tell.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:46
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Jetrauben posted:See I think you're a lot more charitable about Hien's motivations than I am. Given that Hien and Yugiri are close friends, I've always seen it as Hien being somewhat cold-blooded, accepting that he'll need to goad Yugiri into a death-or-glory effort to motivate Doma's people to rise up - because she is his shinobi and his close friend and would never willingly allow her friend to offer himself up for slaughter as the price of peace? It's worth noting that my takes on Hien here are inferences based on Gosetsu and Yugiri's stories, perspectives on his words, and opinions on him as a person. While I have played ahead from this point (though not very far, we're close to catching up to where I am in the story), I hadn't met him yet when I did this stuff.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:52
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Sanguinia posted:Chapter 16: A View to a Kill It may be worth noting that her boss is present. Perhaps that shifts things.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:54
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I never had a problem with the WoL choosing to go with Yugiri here. I basically looked at it as, "There is no way this is going to work, but I know that I can't stop you, so I might as well go with you so I can hopefully help you survive when it inevitably goes downhill." It always baffled me when people instead interpreted it as the WoL being stupid for no good reason.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:54
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RE: Zenos and his layers, that line of yours actually has me sitting down and genuinely pondering the question. I love the character and I've cleared the whole story but Zenos is.... mmmm, he's something, he is. This moment with him in this update is a hell of a moment.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:55
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Some quality Zenos posting, Sanguinia. He's a curious specimen for sure. And yeah, big Estinien moment. 
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Sep 10, 2022 01:56
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well, it's been five levels, it's time they actually introduced you to the main antagonist. up until now you've just been facing the Legatus of the XII Legion, loyal and interminably bored servant of the empire. but you scratched that guy's helmet, just a little, and so now Zenos has come out to play
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Sep 10, 2022 02:01
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Yeah not a big fan of fighting Zenos again, especially because it's almost the exactly same fight. I didn't mind Yugiri and I didn't mind the WoL choosing to fight him, I just didn't think the fight was that fun. I'm also not a fan of this being the third time in a row we've convinced a formerly beaten down group of people to fight back against the Imperials even after they told us they were tired and scared to fight. I get that this is obviously going to be a theme in the expac about rebelling but I was still tired of the similar plot points by Yanxia
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Sep 10, 2022 02:08
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Hellioning posted:Yeah not a big fan of fighting Zenos again, especially because it's almost the exactly same fight. I didn't mind Yugiri and I didn't mind the WoL choosing to fight him, I just didn't think the fight was that fun. I still have a lot of story to go, obviously, but by the end when I have a clearer picture of the whole thing I think I'm definitely going to have some thoughts about this expansion's use of Repetition and Parallelism and whether it was a good thing or not.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:18
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he's such a scrunkly scrimblo. a little. spoingle maybe even a mipy
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Sep 10, 2022 02:19
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There is nothing remotely scrunckly about Zenos 
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Sep 10, 2022 02:22
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FeatherFloat posted:RE: Zenos and his layers, that line of yours actually has me sitting down and genuinely pondering the question. Right from the start, I liked how the writers handled Zenos. His behavior is inconsistent, but in a clearly deliberate way. This made my reaction into "What do I not know about him that would make it all comprehensible," rather than coming off as bad writing. And holy hell, did they pay that off in spades, come EW. For me, the WoL's reason for going with Yugiri was half "She's dead if she does this solo," and half "I want another crack at that bastard." Sanguinia posted:I still have a lot of story to go, obviously, but by the end when I have a clearer picture of the whole thing I think I'm definitely going to have some thoughts about this expansion's use of Repetition and Parallelism and whether it was a good thing or not. Repetition legitimizes. Consistency counts for a lot when you're doing something an audience doesn't expect. Putting the WoL up against a single man, and having them lose, was very unexpected. Kenlon fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 02:25
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The scene with Zenos and Yotsuyu is just visceral proof that a bad person can still be a victim. He shows a certain level of favoritism towards soldiers like Fordola and Grynewaht because they demonstrated the willingness and capability to actually go out and fight for him (contrasted with the officer who he killed out of hand for cowardice). But for Yotsuyu, he doesn't even feel contempt. She's just a tool with one use as far as he's concerned, and once that use is at an end he'll discard her like just another broken sword. Imagine being stuck working for a boss like that. Going after Zenos wasn't at all wise, but not going after Zenos given the ideal ambush situation wouldn't have been very anime-protagonist of the WoL and Yugiri. And I do like that they made it clear that the player character is closing the gap with him such that he needs to pull out a new power up to maintain the advantage. And now, for better or worse, you have his attention. Thundarr fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 02:45
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