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chaosapiant
Oct 10, 2012

White Line Fever

Arc Hammer posted:

That and it's out of respect for new players.

Well that’s a given, but I’m talking specifically about how all of us Witcher vets love hearing feedback from newer players. It never gets old for me.

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Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003

"Ah," Ratz had said, at last, "the artiste."
I like the ending where the Bloody Baron and his wife aren't dead or worse than dead so I'm inclined in that direction, though the 'ideal' ending of also loving over the Crones while avoiding that definitely feels a little too 'outsider knowledge' imo

MikeC
Jul 19, 2004
BITCH ASS NARC

Wolfsheim posted:

I like the ending where the Bloody Baron and his wife aren't dead or worse than dead so I'm inclined in that direction, though the 'ideal' ending of also loving over the Crones while avoiding that definitely feels a little too 'outsider knowledge' imo

Without outside information, there is no way to deduce that a trick ending is even possible. I don't even think it was meant to be possible, just a coding oversight.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Skippy McPants posted:

As last bit of post-Witcher 3 context, the Gwent card for She Who Knows paints a pretty clear picture of a non-friendly entity.

She knows well what kind of clay her daughters are made of. After all, she kneaded it herself.


I feel like that may just be part of being some kind of primordial eldritch entity beyond mortal men. It ain't sunshine and roses, but it's already a given in the Witcher world that you can have a nasty past but still manage to have a positive effect on the future. I think especially before Ciri shows that she can kill some of the Crones, it certainly seems like unleashing the Mother to fight her children is the best shot at getting rid of them.

Something that's neat to me about the background of the Witcher is how deep things go. You've got your ordinary human politics that going back there's a whole history of kingdoms rising and falling, and if you go back far enough there's human migrations populating the world and before that there's Elves and their former empire and migrations, and constantly underpinning that are the various supernatural elements that often Gerault is specialized in stabbing to death with a sword, but there's a number of times when just it's too tough and too old and too powerful for Gerault to even try taking on, and those are just something he would do best to try avoiding when he can. And going back before and underpinning all of that is the weird transdimensional element where at various points in the world's history and prehistory the infinite multiverse just opened up and pooped out a bunch of stuff onto the world. Sometimes it's monsters and magic, going back far enough it was humans at some point, vampires, and presumably most of the weirder creatures, but you can only really guess at what got pooped out long ago and what could've possibly been there before everything else.

The Crones are an active mythology that Gerault wanders up to and interacts with, but not an unchanging immortal force. Maybe they're just a particularly powerful unknown kind of creature, maybe they're something more, but Gerault's not being paid to figure it out, and knows better than to investigate too closely on his own.

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

MikeC posted:

Many word.

I agree with posits one through three, but I think four reaches a bit too far into the realm of assumption. While the crones are unquestionably malign, I don't see any reason to think the spirit is less so. Yes, she keeps her word to Geralt just as the Crones keep their word and tell him about Ciri. They also bargain in good faith. As the spirit indeed said, "A word once given must be honored." Pacts mythological creatures are not optional; they're binding.

Again, I'm not arguing that killing the spirit is the morally superior option, only that freeing her isn't, because there is no clear moral high ground. Geralt is stuck in a literal quagmire, and no matter what he does, an evil party murders a bunch of innocents.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008



chaosapiant posted:

The game is over 7 years old and we’re still spoiler blocking it. That’s how you know a game is drat good.

:hmmyes:

The whole story with the Crones has a neat little echo/foreshadowing in the minor side quest A Greedy God, where a bunch of peasants are being duped by the "Allgod" and Geralt has to choose between keeping their faith intact and giving them a reason to keep going despite the hardship, starvation, and sacrifice such faith requires, or exposing the lie for what it is and possibly killing the parasitical sylvan. In the original Polish, this mission was titled (rough translation) "Opium for the Masses".

The main difference being that the Allgod is a fraud who Geralt could dispatch without too much trouble, while the Crones are powerful supernatural entities that could destroy the entire surrounding ecosystem and aren't intimidated by the idea of a Witcher

man nurse
Feb 18, 2014


ngl I’m pretty hype to play through this again when the PS5 version finally drops even though I’ve played through it like three times

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005

*Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

man nurse posted:

ngl I’m pretty hype to play through this again when the PS5 version finally drops even though I’ve played through it like three times

absolutely

10 Beers
May 21, 2005

Shit! I didn't bring a knife.

Still going through my 9th replay and I still chuckle whenever the drunk barber in Novigrad gives me the wrong haircut. Man I love this game.

Mulaney Power Move
Dec 30, 2004

I didn't know anything about the Witcher coming into this game and I just figured Geralt was like this world's Judge Dredd, or at least that's how I play him.

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

I'm only about 50% through the main questline, and I've officially run out of non-DLC Gwent players. Game sucks.

alex314
Nov 22, 2007

You're just having your priorities straight.

isk
Oct 3, 2007

You don't want me owing you
On the plus side, you aren't saddled with the lovely deck from the Toussaint tournament

Helith
Nov 5, 2009

Basket of Adorables


Unless you draw Cerys. That is that decks big ‘I win’ card. But without it you’re screwed.

A Wizard of Goatse
Dec 14, 2014

MikeC posted:

Since the game never fully addresses or presents an undeniable true version of the events, there will always be ambiguity. The fact remains though we know for certain several things.

The first is that the 3 Crones, regardless of whether they made up the account about the Lady of the Wood going mad or not, are exceptionally evil. They continually harvest children from Downwarren for their yearly rituals and we know for a fact they get eaten. The man at Bald Mountain when you go to the feast to kill the Crones mentions that the offerings presented are no longer enough for the Crones to make personal appearances anymore to hear grievances, yet the sacrifices must go on lest they risk not even receiving the few acorns they get every year that allow them to fertilize the fields or make medicine. We know the children that cannot afford to be fed are the ones that get sent down the 'sweet path' to the Crones for sacrifice. This heavily implies that the Crones purposefully keep the local villagers, Downwarren, and others in Velen that contribute to the starvation state they are in so that a ready supply of children that cannot be fed continues to be supplied to them. There is the also the issue with "Gran" or Anna who was outright tricked into servitude and destined to go insane from having to raise children she knows will be eaten. In the worst case scenario, she gets turned into a hag for not protecting the children from an ancient supernatural force....who was actually out to save them. Do these seem like the kind of Crones who would tell you the truth?

2nd, there is broad agreement between the dialogues of the Ealdorman, the man at Bald Mountain, the Crones, and the spirit herself that this arrangement was not always the case. In 'She Who Knows', even if we take almost all of the text at face value, we know for a fact that the Crones used to make an appearance on an annual basis to speak and listen on behalf of the Lady of the Wood. It is now confirmed that this bargain is one-sided now with the Crones almost never making any appearances. In essence, the covenant that the Lady of the Wood created with the people of Velen was broken, and even after her imprisonment by the Crones, the covenant was never restored, and only scraps were given to the villagers so that they might not be wiped out and the Crones lose their source of sacrifices and children. All sides besides the Crones corroborate this.

3rd, it is likely the Lady of the Wood did either voluntarily or involuntarily abandon the covenant. She admits as much when she says she "abandoned the circle...where I'd (she) kept the balance...the Crones killed me..." Everyone is in agreement that the Crones took out the knives to kill their mother. Whether this was because she actually did go insane or that this was just an excuse for her murder is unknown. However, even with her death, the situation was never restored to what was. Which beggars the question, who actually hosed things up in the first place? Maybe the Lady of the Wood wanted to leave her circle and the Crones liked the idea of living in style with yearly sacrifices and pushed her into insanity before she left. If the Crones really did murder the Lady of the Wood because things were being hosed up, why did things not return to the way they were? More evidence that the Crones are full of poo poo and that the Spirit's version of events is closer to the truth.

4th, we can almost be assured that whatever the nature of the covenant between the OG Lady of the Wood and the peasants in Velen, she upheld her end of the bargain because that is in her nature. We already know that before she went "mad", times were much better in Velen and the yearly sacrifices were not in vain. The Crones came every year to relay hopes and grievances to their mother and speak on her behalf. Furthermore, as I said, she upholds her bargain with Geralt. "I shall....A word once given must be honoured". Even when she has no reason to do so as she was now free and could just do whatever the gently caress she wanted. In addition, she didn't have to drop them off at the relative safety of an orphanage. Does that sound like a spirit that went mad and started making everyone insane for the fun of it? Not to me.

So all in all, we don't know for sure what the Lady of the Wood is or isn't. Almost certainly this is not a benign and benevolent creature. The fact that she does massacre Downwarren in revenge is proof of this. But there is no convincing evidence either she is an abject evildoer with no redeemable qualities in the same sense the Crones are. The Crones exploit the villagers, take their ears, and their children, and offer little to nothing in return save a few magic acorns which the villagers must agonize on how to make use of them because of the scarcity - the very scarcity that forces them to donate their children in the first place. More likely she a kind of supernatural spirit that does demand obedience and fealty of some sort, but offers real and tangible rewards in return for worship and sacrifice. She keeps her word and bargains in good faith while the Crones clearly do not.


trying to draw out any meaningful distinction between the rule of the Crones and the Lady of the Wood is missing the point. They're just magical royalty, same as the mundane royalty you deal with, whose relationship to the peasantry is straightforwardly parasitic rule by fear. It's a pretty universal trait of despotism for the commoners to overlook their basically unchanged material circumstances to weave grandiose tales of the mad old king deposed by the good new king, or the wise old king deposed by a degenerate ingrate heir, but the power struggles of child-eating fairies are not inherently of merit or significance to anyone but the monsters squabbling over who gets to eat all the kids. The "good old days" of Velen that story depicts before the Lady "went mad" are still Velen as a muddy shithole ruled by terror and human sacrifice, it's just asserting that the vibes were like, totally different man, in a way the rationalizes feeding your kids to a bog hag as a grand blessing. Both sets of fairies are a dubious improvement on their human counterparts in that they will reliably honor the letter of any bargain you can force them into, while brutally violating the spirit, but any deal with them still inevitably entails the bargainer, and certainly the people of Velen, coming out worse off than they went in. There is no space between them.

Skippy McPants posted:

One thing I don't like about this game is how quests sometimes trap you in contrived choices to force a "morally grey" outcome. I don't expect every quest to have a happy ending. The Whispering Hillock, for example, corners you very convincingly in a situation where no matter what you do, children die, even if you do nothing. Then, on the other hand, you have a quest like The Nithing, where there exists a glaring omission of the option to say, "I can reverse the curse lady. Cut it out, or I'll kill you." Even if that didn't change your ultimate choices in the quest, the lack of that option shifts the moral burden onto the player in a manner that feels extremely cheap.

I dunno, it's not a huge deal or anything, but it's something that's stuck in my craw with a handful of quests so far.

Really? I distinctly recall you being able to say that, or something to that effect, and she basically shrugs and dares you to try. She's not really interested in bargaining, someone's gotta bleed

A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Sep 9, 2022

Mulaney Power Move
Dec 30, 2004

I now have 75+ hours in this game. Level 19 and just rescued Dandelion and I have like 20 pending quests going down to level 11. Not been to Skellige yet. I have been prioritizing non-main quests to an extent but mostly prioritizing by doing the lower level ones first while I can still get exp. Basically I wander around instead of using fast travel if there are still ? items in my path and do whatever I run into unless it is too high level. I think I might be avoiding the main quest too much, though. Getting too OP.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010
You can get levels off doing a lot of side quests but if you end up OP it’s probably cause you explored enough to start making Witcher school armor sets which will make you pretty OP even against overleveled enemies.

Riven
Apr 22, 2002
It’s worth noting that even when you can get XP from low level side quests you still get almost none compared to the main quest. I wouldn’t stress on XP from side quests.

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

Mulaney Power Move posted:

I now have 75+ hours in this game. Level 19 and just rescued Dandelion and I have like 20 pending quests going down to level 11. Not been to Skellige yet. I have been prioritizing non-main quests to an extent but mostly prioritizing by doing the lower level ones first while I can still get exp. Basically I wander around instead of using fast travel if there are still ? items in my path and do whatever I run into unless it is too high level. I think I might be avoiding the main quest too much, though. Getting too OP.

Game just isn't that difficult combat-wise. I'm playing on hard, and after about level 15'ish, nothing was really all that challenging.

That's not a knock, though. The combat isn't bad, but nor is it terribly engaging. Happy to breeze past it so I can enjoy more of the story. I just finished up Hearts of Stone, and that had some of the best quest design I've ever seen in an RPG.

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

Also, having just praised this game's storytelling, I gotta say—I loving hated how Reason of State ended.

Dijkstra coming down with the worst case of plot-induced idiocy in history was awful, just loving terrible. Maybe try to arrange a better deal before backstabbing your allies? No, well, maybe wait for them to get drunk and shoot them all from the shadows rather than announcing your treachery on a literal stage while all your targets are still juiced to the tits from killing a king? No, okay, then maybe at the very least wait until the murder hobo you've personally seen blender dozens of people is out of the room. Jesus.

For a game that goes so far out of its way to tell organic stories, that was the most contrived poo poo.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

Skippy McPants posted:

Also, having just praised this game's storytelling, I gotta say—I loving hated how Reason of State ended.

Dijkstra coming down with the worst case of plot-induced idiocy in history was awful, just loving terrible. Maybe try to arrange a better deal before backstabbing your allies? No, well, maybe wait for them to get drunk and shoot them all from the shadows rather than announcing your treachery on a literal stage while all your targets are still juiced to the tits from killing a king? No, okay, then maybe at the very least wait until the murder hobo you've personally seen blender dozens of people is out of the room. Jesus.

For a game that goes so far out of its way to tell organic stories, that was the most contrived poo poo.

Yeah, the ending of that was poo poo. I liked it a lot until the end.

Wolfsheim
Dec 23, 2003

"Ah," Ratz had said, at last, "the artiste."

Skippy McPants posted:

Also, having just praised this game's storytelling, I gotta say—I loving hated how Reason of State ended.

Dijkstra coming down with the worst case of plot-induced idiocy in history was awful, just loving terrible. Maybe try to arrange a better deal before backstabbing your allies? No, well, maybe wait for them to get drunk and shoot them all from the shadows rather than announcing your treachery on a literal stage while all your targets are still juiced to the tits from killing a king? No, okay, then maybe at the very least wait until the murder hobo you've personally seen blender dozens of people is out of the room. Jesus.

For a game that goes so far out of its way to tell organic stories, that was the most contrived poo poo.

Geralt would never make the decision to walk away from that (and Djikstra would never handle it so clumsily) but frankly I feel like he earns the win so I'm inclined to let him get away with it

Strategic Tea
Sep 1, 2012

It is, and it's not like it couldn't be salvaged with a bit of good old thriller writing.

Roche betrayed the whole plan and made a deal with the invading enemy weeks or months ago. Dijkstra is blatantly opportunistic about sacrificing anyone if it's convenient to Redania. Just drop the Shakespeare grandstanding and have two old spies who'd rather kill each other than find a compromise.

Cantorsdust
Aug 10, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Skippy McPants posted:

Also, having just praised this game's storytelling, I gotta say—I loving hated how Reason of State ended.

Dijkstra coming down with the worst case of plot-induced idiocy in history was awful, just loving terrible. Maybe try to arrange a better deal before backstabbing your allies? No, well, maybe wait for them to get drunk and shoot them all from the shadows rather than announcing your treachery on a literal stage while all your targets are still juiced to the tits from killing a king? No, okay, then maybe at the very least wait until the murder hobo you've personally seen blender dozens of people is out of the room. Jesus.

For a game that goes so far out of its way to tell organic stories, that was the most contrived poo poo.

And it would have only taken a few tweaks to make it much more consistent with the characters. My suggestion:

Before the assassination, Djikstra pulls Geralt aside after one of the meets and issues him a stern warning: once this assassination business is over, steer well clear of Roche and Thaler lest he get involved in business that is beyond him. Djikstra says he has major political disagreements with Thaler's plan for Temeria, and the two of them are going to work it out. It's just vague enough to be deniable, but just threatening enough to be concerning. Geralt monologues to himself afterwards, wondering if he should give Roche and Thaler a heads up. If Geralt does, then Thaler explains his political goals for Temeria and invites Geralt to stay with them after the assassination in case Djikstra tries something. Geralt can choose to stay neutral or agree to help them preserve Temeria. During the battle, Djikstra is not part of the ambush and is nowhere to be found. Roche and Geralt track him down to the bathhouse (or wherever the writers would like) and Roche is about to kill him. Geralt is given the option to allow Roche to kill him or intervene and spare him a la Witcher 2 with Henselt. If Geralt doesn't warn Roche and Thaler, or warns them but refuses to take part in their defense, then Djikstra's ending occurs. If Geralt warns Roche and Thaler and helps them fend off Djikstra's ambush, then Ehmyr's + Temeria's ending occurs.

Both Djikstra's and Geralt's behavior would be more consistent with their book characters. Djikstra was never planning to directly confront Geralt at Geralt's full strength. Geralt is never asked in extremis to choose to allow his friends to die. Geralt's choice would be presented more as one of getting involved with politics (on one side or the other) or neutrality, the same kind of choice he has been having to make in every book and every game.

Edit: It would also make the choice more tolerable for me as a player, especially since I went Iorveth in Witcher 2. I can much more easily write off the whole thing as "spy business, not going to get involved" and justify in my head how I could let Djikstra win. Much more easy to justify than "I'm going to walk away and allow my friends to be murdered in cold blood right in front of me." Frankly, I really would like an ending where the North wins, Emyhr eats poo poo, Ciri gets to stay a witcher, and Geralt doesn't allow his friends to be murdered in front of him. But as the game stands currently, I always wind up with the Emyhr ending +/- Empress Ciri because I feel that 1) allowing Radovid to live is deeply wrong, 2) allowing Roche and Thaler to be murdered is wrong, and 3) telling Ciri that her biological father wants to see her is a reasonable thing to do.

Cantorsdust fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 14, 2022

Mulaney Power Move
Dec 30, 2004

The game is kind of an essay on the idea that neutrality is not actually neutral, which is why so many peasants must die. By steel or by bog curse.

I probably shouldn't have murdered the Nietzescheans, though, but I thought it was only a brawl until I punched both of them to death.

Mulaney Power Move fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Sep 14, 2022

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!
It was extremely weird to me that the game doesn't have Geralt just slap them around.

Strategic Tea
Sep 1, 2012

Geralt Shepard: The Wild Hunt is coming and we don't have time for the two of you to screw around. Report to Skellige immediately! :shepface:

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

Halloween Jack posted:

It was extremely weird to me that the game doesn't have Geralt just slap them around.

Ditto.

Mulaney Power Move
Dec 30, 2004

Sometimes it is easy to know when Geralt will have a choice to murder, but other times you just go with "Well, huh" and an entire village dies.

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)
Roche is literally head of a genocidal death squad. Let Dijkstra kill him. Nothing of value is lost. Oh you got the equivalent of a sweet SS tattoo after a night out with the guy once? You make me sick.

WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Sep 15, 2022

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

He's a bro

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

He's no bro, but Dijkstra is just as bad and it's kinda hard to stand aside while someone is backstabbing me right in the face. Really a shame Iorveth didn't make it into the game.

The ending to the main quest of Witcher 3 was pretty fragmented. Lots of jumping around and tying up threads in the blink of an eye. Still has a decent overall ending, though. On to B&W.

Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

Man, and here I thought the main game had already cranked the color saturation to 11. Toussaint looks like a painting come to life.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010
It fits pretty well narratively, idk if you’ve read the books but Toussaint was this little pocket of the world completely unperturbed by and oblivious to the shitshow going on during the Witcher Saga since it was too valuable financially/politically to gently caress with so it makes sense that it would look literally picturesque compared to Velen having mobs of ghouls.

Mike the TV
Jan 14, 2008

Ninety-nine ninety-nine ninety-nine

Pillbug

Last Celebration posted:

It fits pretty well narratively, idk if you’ve read the books but Toussaint was this little pocket of the world completely unperturbed by and oblivious to the shitshow going on during the Witcher Saga since it was too valuable financially/politically to gently caress with so it makes sense that it would look literally picturesque compared to Velen having mobs of ghouls.

I like the game's implied reason for this if you dig deep - because of the secret cadre of higher vampires shaping Toussaint's politics to keep them neutral so that they could be kept fat and happy and tasty.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010
Well gently caress, shouldn’t have moused over that if I hadn’t finished Blood and Wine I guess!

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004



He was always nice to me

Well, starting after the prologue at least

Last Celebration posted:

Well gently caress, shouldn’t have moused over that if I hadn’t finished Blood and Wine I guess!

Don’t sweat it too much, it’s less important to the plot of the DLC than you’d expect

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005

*Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

Last Celebration posted:

Well gently caress, shouldn’t have moused over that if I hadn’t finished Blood and Wine I guess!

in terms of the main story that's only a partial spoiler, it explains why vampires are there more than in other places is all.

Fortaleza
Feb 21, 2008

It's almost Q4 2022 and still no set date for the next-gen upgrade :ohdear:

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Skippy McPants
Mar 19, 2009

Last Celebration posted:

It fits pretty well narratively, idk if you’ve read the books but Toussaint was this little pocket of the world completely unperturbed by and oblivious to the shitshow going on during the Witcher Saga since it was too valuable financially/politically to gently caress with so it makes sense that it would look literally picturesque compared to Velen having mobs of ghouls.

Oh, I ain't dissin' the choice. Much as I gave people poo poo for all those Skyrim beautification mods, it is a fine style to use, provided the choice is deliberate, and it fits with the game.

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