[Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 21 days!)

PawParole posted:

Old summary post I made

A lot of the coverage around the start of the war makes a big deal of Abiy dissolving the ERPDF and trying to end ethnic federalism unilaterally, which means everyone in the country would be subjected to the rule of Abiy's party and it could potentially be a return of the Derg. What's your opinion on that?

# ? Sep 2, 2022 08:36

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 15:33

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

A lot of the coverage around the start of the war makes a big deal of Abiy dissolving the ERPDF and trying to end ethnic federalism unilaterally, which means everyone in the country would be subjected to the rule of Abiy's party and it could potentially be a return of the Derg. What's your opinion on that?

no one wants that outside of a few chavanists in Addis, even the Amhara region is fond of its autonomy.

The ERPDF only used ethnic federalism as a tool anyway, it never respected it and the TPLF governed autocratically and commited genocide like other people drink water.

# ? Sep 2, 2022 14:11

Marzzle: Dec 1, 2004; Bursting with flavor

did Baghdad get it together riots wise?

# ? Sep 2, 2022 15:10

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/ForeignPolicy/status/1565761487095881728

# ? Sep 2, 2022 23:23

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

Some Guy TT posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ForeignPolicy/status/1565761487095881728

lol. lmao.

https://twitter.com/MapEthiopia/status/1565766955713306626

https://twitter.com/sajid_nadeem78/status/1565760673786855427?cxt=HHwWhoC8xa_C2borAAAA

https://twitter.com/sajid_nadeem78/status/1565379664708861952?cxt=HHwWgIC82dygrLkrAAAA

# ? Sep 3, 2022 01:38

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018; Can't post for 5 hours!

PawParole posted:

OLA is technically allied with TPLF but they remember how they backstabbed them in the 90�s so they�re not close allies. All the other �allies� are fake front groups, and the Tigrays are officially fighting for separation this time so alliances doesn�t matter. (That is what they said last time before taking over the country and commuting genocides against Anuaks and Somalis)

PawParole posted:

Old summary post I made

Thank you for the explanation. :cheers:

# ? Sep 3, 2022 01:39

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Some Guy TT posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ForeignPolicy/status/1565761487095881728

The TPLF rejected the African Union's peace process as biased towards the central government and wanted more Western involvement.

# ? Sep 3, 2022 01:46

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

Atrocious Joe posted:

The TPLF rejected the African Union's peace process as biased towards the central government and wanted more Western involvement.

AU is a dictators league. The TPLF should know that from when they were the dictators.

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/gunmen-kill-least-42-people-ethiopias-oromiya-region-residents-2022-09-02/?utm_source=reddit.com

ADDIS ABABA, Sept 2 (Reuters) - Gunmen killed at least 42 people in Ethiopia's Oromiya region, two residents who buried the bodies in mass graves said on Friday, the latest killings in the country's most populous region where escalating violence has left hundreds dead.

Seems like a retaliatory killing by FANO for the Amharas that were supposedly killed by the OLA.

# ? Sep 3, 2022 14:34

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

https://twitter.com/amandaruthprice/status/1565779852510302210?s=20&t=VNfhloQ5P73ff_wTogq3mA

Albania?

https://twitter.com/Unseen_Archive/status/1333412993913204737?s=20&t=VNfhloQ5P73ff_wTogq3mA

# ? Sep 3, 2022 18:43

guidoanselmi: Feb 6, 2008; I thought my ideas were so clear. I wanted to make an honest post. No lies whatsoever.

Cuba sheds a tear. All that work in Angola for this sort of recognition?

# ? Sep 3, 2022 19:14

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Atrocious Joe posted:

Albania?

https://twitter.com/Unseen_Archive/status/1333412993913204737?s=20&t=VNfhloQ5P73ff_wTogq3mA

:cryinghoxha:

# ? Sep 3, 2022 20:50

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

guidoanselmi posted:

Cuba sheds a tear. All that work in Angola for this sort of recognition?

The TPLF at the time were fighting a government that was a military ally of Cuba.

# ? Sep 3, 2022 20:56

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 21 days!)

The Derg were on the Soviet side of the Sino-Soviet split, and TPLF was Chinese. It was the same for UNITA in Angola, and they were also on the side of South Africa and the United States.

# ? Sep 4, 2022 00:41

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

guidoanselmi posted:

Cuba sheds a tear. All that work in Angola for this sort of recognition?

the Cubans helped the Red Fascist DERG who were naplaming villages and wiping out the real Ethiopian Communists.

Atrocious Joe posted:

The TPLF at the time were fighting a government that was a military ally of Cuba.

ironically they did build a monument to them, back when they were trying to appeal to Amharic Ultranationalists.

PawParole has issued a correction as of 01:36 on Sep 4, 2022

# ? Sep 4, 2022 01:19

skipmyseashells: Nov 14, 2020

PawParole posted:

the Cubans helped the Red Fascist DERG who were naplaming villages and wiping out the real Ethiopian Communists.

Israel was helping the derg too by the time the odagen war kicked off, Cuba and the derg were pretty much going around raping and pillaging non stop at the tail end of that one

Castro�s ego exploded after Angola

# ? Sep 4, 2022 01:25

Honky Mao: Dec 26, 2012

Atrocious Joe posted:

https://twitter.com/amandaruthprice/status/1565779852510302210?s=20&t=VNfhloQ5P73ff_wTogq3mA

Albania?

https://twitter.com/Unseen_Archive/status/1333412993913204737?s=20&t=VNfhloQ5P73ff_wTogq3mA

what in the world

# ? Sep 4, 2022 01:26

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The Derg were on the Soviet side of the Sino-Soviet split, and TPLF was Chinese. It was the same for UNITA in Angola, and they were also on the side of South Africa and the United States.

That clip I posted was from 1990, but I don't think the TPLF aligned with China after the split as the true socialist camp. Embracing Albania was a way for them to reconcile having an admiration for Mao and bad relations with China. It's weird to think that if the TPLF didn't take power, they might be talking about Gonzalo now.

This alleged 1980 quote from Afwerki is interesting with regards to China. It's the Eritrean position and not particularly ideological, but I think it gets down to the material reason why China wasn't really embraced in the Horn. They just didn't offer enough aid to make it worthwhile.

quote:

Let us take a few examples. The EPLF has considered, and continues to do so today, that in principle the Socialist countries would be their natural allies, but today this very anti-imperialist international front is a prey to contradictions. We have already said enough about the USSR: a one time supporter of the Eritrean independence, today it has chosen the military regime in Ethiopia and is participating in the war of repression in Eritrea. �China� � as Ramadan Mohammed Nur himself feels � �is far, too far from us. And we are too far from China�. The Vice-Secretary General of the EPLF Isaayas Afeworki adds, �The Chinese leaders are interested in knowing only if we share their formulas, if we are inclined to imitate their slogans in exchange for a bit of aid. We do not need these kinds of friends�.

https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/eritrea/international-situation.htm

Atrocious Joe has issued a correction as of 16:16 on Sep 4, 2022

# ? Sep 4, 2022 16:11

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

Atrocious Joe posted:

That clip I posted was from 1990, but I don't think the TPLF aligned with China after the split as the true socialist camp. Embracing Albania was a way for them to reconcile having an admiration for Mao and bad relations with China. It's weird to think that if the TPLF didn't take power, they might be talking about Gonzalo now.

This alleged 1980 quote from Afwerki is interesting with regards to China. It's the Eritrean position and not particularly ideological, but I think it gets down to the material reason why China wasn't really embraced in the Horn. They just didn't offer enough aid to make it worthwhile.

https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/eritrea/international-situation.htm

China got west africa and Soviets got eastern africa. though after the Split they started stepping on each others feet.

# ? Sep 5, 2022 00:36

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 21 days!)

Atrocious Joe posted:

That clip I posted was from 1990, but I don't think the TPLF aligned with China after the split as the true socialist camp. Embracing Albania was a way for them to reconcile having an admiration for Mao and bad relations with China. It's weird to think that if the TPLF didn't take power, they might be talking about Gonzalo now.

Considering what the TPLF can get up to we may as well be.

# ? Sep 5, 2022 02:32

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

https://twitter.com/sajid_nadeem78/status/1566180074340196354

# ? Sep 5, 2022 03:27

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

The US is sending in the Hammer
https://twitter.com/AfricaMediaHub/status/1567100132981719040?s=20&t=6vD72HhjAJ8gD3McXoNYrQ

ngl I was making fun of Mike Hammer mostly for his name, but apparently he comes from a Deep State family. He was ambassador to DRC prior to his current role.
https://twitter.com/kambale/status/1545761054101323776?s=20&t=6vD72HhjAJ8gD3McXoNYrQ

quote:

2 U.S. Aides, Salvadoran Assassinated
By Christopher DickeyJanuary 5, 1981

Two American agricultural advisers and the head of El Salvador's intensely disputed agrarian reform program were slain by unidentified gunmen in the Salvadoran capital late last night.

Michael Hammer, 42, of Potomac, Md., and Mark Pearlman, 36, of Seattle were having coffee at about 11:30 p.m. in the San Salvador Sheraton Hotel with Rodolfo Viera, a peasant union leader and head of the agrarian reform institute, when two men walked up and sprayed them with bullets from automatic pistols, according to a U.S. Embassy spokesman. Hammer and Viera were killed almost instantly. Pearlman died on the way to the hospital.

President Jose Napoleon Duarte and his defense minister promised full cooperation in an investigation to find the killers. No one immediately claimed responsibility for the murders.

[In Washington, a State Department spokesman said, "We are particularly grieved at the deaths of these three men whose lives were dedicated to the building of a just and equitable society in El Salvador. At the time of their deaths they were actively working on behalf of the agrarian reform program, which has brought new hope for a better life to hundreds of thousands of El Salvador's rural poor." Almost 200 persons connected with the reform have been killed in the last nine months, the spokesman said.]

The hotel restaurant was virtually empty at the time. A witness told U.S. officials that the gunmen entered and escaped "very calmly."

Hammer, who had arrived in San Salvador only yesterday morning, was the director of agrarian union development for the American Institute for Free Labor Development in Washington. It is an AFLCIO affiliate that does contract work in union organization for the U.S. Agency for International Development. Pearlman, who had spent the past seven months in El Salvador, was one of two local representatives of the institute.
...

The role of the American institute for Free Labor Development in EL Salvador has been controversial. In the 1960s and early 1970s it was closely allied with the peasants' union, but the connection was broken after allegations that AIFLD had CIA connections.

Those allegations have since been put to rest (lol sure), and the institute again became prominent in El Salvador last spring as the U.S. Embassy pressured the new military-civilian government to begin long-promised reforms.

AIFLD, which has country representatives throughout Latin America, has overall contracts of about $15 million with AID and a $1.5 million special contract to help administer the agrarian reform program in El Salvador. This year, according to embassy spokesmen, the United States directed about $35 million to help bolster the project.

# ? Sep 6, 2022 18:16

Marzzle: Dec 1, 2004; Bursting with flavor

lmao

# ? Sep 6, 2022 18:42

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

https://twitter.com/reda_getachew/status/1567040435129819136?s=20&t=HAXiTCgVxiY_tXQjve6p9Q

TPLF leader sharing an article by a former US diplomat to Eritrea. Walker starts the article off by bringing up Eritrea's support of Russia at the UN, because the only reason most Atlantic readers will care about Africa is if Russia or China are involved.

here's the thrust of it:

quote:

The experience was an education in the unique challenges that totalitarian systems pose. As a foreign-policy practitioner, I arrived at a number of conclusions about dealing with totalitarian states that are, in essence, a set of practical diplomatic corollaries to Kirkpatrick�s conceptual framework. (These represent my own views, not necessarily those of the Department of State.)

1: Diplomatic engagement with totalitarian states is futile. The Eritrean regime loves to �engage��to participate in and publicize talks and meetings that give the impression of openness and reasonability. During these interactions, however, Eritrean officials make clear to their foreign interlocutors that the regime will, as they told one of my colleagues, �compromise on process but not on principles.� In other words, you can �engage� indefinitely, but nothing is going to stop the regime from terrorizing and impoverishing its people, or destabilizing the region. (It has for decades intervened in, or triggered, conflicts and civil wars in neighboring states.) There is a natural tendency among diplomats, in Washington and elsewhere, to favor engagement. This is understandable, but potentially dangerous because engagement, if not carefully calibrated, risks legitimizing totalitarian regimes. The U.S., like-minded countries, and the UN should continue to deal with Eritrea, and even cooperate on issues of mutual interest, but this should be tactical interaction subordinate to a strategic appreciation that the regime is inimical, if not hostile, to our interests and values.

2. We should support oppressed populations by acknowledging their lived reality. Totalitarian regimes aren�t satisfied with political control. They demand the pervasive control that can only come by determining the �truth.� According to the carefully curated narrative propagated by the Ministry of Information, Eritrea is an African David engaged in a righteous fight for its dignity and survival against a U.S.-led Western Goliath that �weaponizes� human rights. In this telling, the government and people, united as one, have achieved social justice, national self-reliance, and ethnic and religious harmony. In fact, Eritrea is a human-rights-abusing geriatric dictatorship dominated by Tigrigna Orthodox Christians that is totally dependent on borrowing from foreigners. The U.S. may not be able to rescue the Eritrean people, or any other people living under totalitarian dictatorships, but by providing accurate information and diverse views, it can empower them by thwarting regime efforts to control perception. Many Eritreans have told American diplomats that our human-rights advocacy has given a voice to the voiceless. That is what American diplomacy should seek to do. To its credit, the Biden administration recognizes this. Speaking in Pretoria on August 8, Secretary of State Blinken stressed the U.S. commitment to work with African �partners to tackle 21st century threats to democracy like misinformation, digital surveillance, [and] weaponized corruption� through diplomatic support, including hosting the African Leaders Summit this December, as well as financial assistance under the bipartisan Global Fragility Act, which provides $200 million annually to promote reform and good governance in conflict-prone areas.

3. Confrontation is necessary and appropriate. Totalitarian systems need to have an enemy; foreign (usually Western) hostility justifies their repression. We should unapologetically but not hostilely counter totalitarian regimes� efforts to propagate misinformation, legitimize their repression, and misrepresent Western policies. I decided last fall that we had for too long given the Eritrean propaganda machine a free pass. This neglect had normalized the regime�s human-rights abuses and propaganda. We began countering the regime�s disinformation, especially anti-American propaganda emanating from the information minister�s Twitter feed, on our embassy Facebook page. Public diplomacy typically seeks to focus on �positive� stories. In the case of totalitarian regimes, we should not be fearful of disciplined confrontation. In Eritrea, that approach worked.

4. Totalitarian states are inherently destabilizing and should be isolated and contained. Totalitarian regimes are cancers in the international body politic. It is in their DNA to metastasize. Eritrea is a regional menace. Its decades of destabilizing belligerence�including the Hanish Islands dispute with Yemen in 1995; interference in the Second Sudanese Civil War in 1996�98; the border war with Ethiopia in 1998�2000; border skirmishes with Djibouti in 2008; and alleged assistance to the terrorist al-Shabaab group in Somalia in the mid-2000s�led to UN sanctions in 2009 and 2011. Eritrea�s current military involvement in the conflict in northern Ethiopia, during which Eritrean forces have reportedly looted and committed horrific human-rights abuses, including sexual violence, against civilians, has complicated efforts to stop the fighting and exacerbated an already dire humanitarian crisis. We must accept that with totalitarian regimes, aggression is a question of when, not if, and tailor our diplomatic approaches and calculations accordingly. Our current Eritrea policy of sanctions and isolation is a good template for dealing with totalitarian regimes. We may not be able to stop their aggression, but we can try to contain it.

this quote was interesting

quote:

Eritrea didn�t exist when Jeane Kirkpatrick, a former diplomat and political scientist, wrote her classic �Dictatorships and Double Standards"

That's the title of a 1979 essay and a 1982 book. The Eritreans had been fighting for independence for a decade by then. Feels like Walker is basically saying that Eritrea isn't a real country.

# ? Sep 6, 2022 21:17

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/KenRoth/status/1567556958105772032

# ? Sep 7, 2022 18:18

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/awhawth/status/1567551131072532484

# ? Sep 7, 2022 18:21

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

Atrocious Joe posted:

https://twitter.com/reda_getachew/status/1567040435129819136?s=20&t=HAXiTCgVxiY_tXQjve6p9Q

TPLF leader sharing an article by a former US diplomat to Eritrea. Walker starts the article off by bringing up Eritrea's support of Russia at the UN, because the only reason most Atlantic readers will care about Africa is if Russia or China are involved.

here's the thrust of it:

this quote was interesting

That's the title of a 1979 essay and a 1982 book. The Eritreans had been fighting for independence for a decade by then. Feels like Walker is basically saying that Eritrea isn't a real country.

I feel like they want to punish the Eritrean state for siding with the "wrong" people more than anything else.

And what Western hostility to totalitarian regimes? The West loves and adores totalitarian regimes.

# ? Sep 7, 2022 18:38

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

# ? Sep 8, 2022 04:48

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 21 days!)

https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1567721644428500993?s=20&t=CediD6WbxhUbYqgng2m3MQ

# ? Sep 8, 2022 10:19

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

bidens loose but

# ? Sep 8, 2022 14:03

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

stealing a good post from d&d (??)

SlothfulCobra posted:

The Egyptian Government is currently building a new capital a few miles out from Cairo.

Ostensibly one of the reasons given is that Cairo is a very crowded city with insufficient housing, and this is just another attempt to build a city out in the desert in order to relieve the pressure on central Cairo. You can see some of the attempts to build outer-Cairo cities on the maps as well, they've been building them for a while. Most are lacking much of a transit system connecting them to the city proper, so they end up as exurbs that mainly the wealthy get to and from by car.

Adding to the problem is the fact that much of the population of Cairo proper lives in "informal settlements" that were never technically permitted by the Egyptian government and are designated "slums" that the government is bent on eradicating, despite not actually creating anyplace for the denizens to go.

And so, considering the political context this is happening in, it's more likely according to this video that Egypt's just moving its government out of the city proper for reasons like Versailles. To get it away from the commoners who could rise up, especially after the whole deal with the Arab Spring and the subsequent coup that the current president rode to power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaCkZvrDtC8

Another article's take on Cairo's development:

https://theconversation.com/egypt-is-building-a-new-capital-city-from-scratch-heres-how-to-avoid-inequality-and-segregation-103402

# ? Sep 8, 2022 20:41

Seatbelts: Mar 29, 2010

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1567721644428500993?s=20&t=CediD6WbxhUbYqgng2m3MQ

that was fire

# ? Sep 8, 2022 22:14

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/awhawth/status/1567926513718247424

# ? Sep 8, 2022 23:02

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://twitter.com/scotthortonshow/status/1568079601808670721

# ? Sep 9, 2022 06:03

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

love how the whole world is using one art style now, including Tigrayan nationalists lol

# ? Sep 9, 2022 07:06

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 21 days!)

PawParole posted:

love how the whole world is using one art style now, including Tigrayan nationalists lol

I'm pretty sure you already posted this months ago too. Or at least it's the exact same format & art.

# ? Sep 9, 2022 13:37

Mans: Sep 14, 2011; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

i say swears online posted:

stealing a good post from d&d (??)

worked for brasilia

# ? Sep 9, 2022 17:16

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

but not louis xvi

# ? Sep 9, 2022 18:32

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

https://twitter.com/reda_getachew/status/1568368995199320065?s=20&t=NP_j6r-lqPOA94QU4IkK4w

quote:

Getachew K Reda
@reda_getachew
Advisor to the President of Tigray; ExecCommittee member, TPLF. Member, Central Command, Government of Tigray; Head,External Affairs Office,Gov�t of Tigray

# ? Sep 10, 2022 03:02

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1568365425343307777

# ? Sep 10, 2022 05:17

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 15:33

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://twitter.com/LarryMadowo/status/1568135293600940032

# ? Sep 10, 2022 06:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

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