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Perhaps. Maybe this is a meta commentary on how there must essentially be, at the heart of any truly artistic endeavour, something dispassionately observing the moment and trying, however imperfectly, to store the moment for later use.
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Sep 11, 2022 08:01
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i think something important to keep in mind is that don absolutely hates the idea of manipulative emotions or sentimentality in ads. he repeatedly rails against using the word love in ads, mostly because of it cheapening the idea/word, though he gives a couple other reasons at different points. yes, the ad should speak to you and yes it should have an emotional response, but not because people just throw around grant ideas or sentiments and hope the viewer connects those empty words to the not empty memories of when those words were important. advertising can, and most importantly SHOULD, be more than that. so with a concept as emotional and grand as the coke ad, the idea that don would be doing so in a cynical or cheap way just doesnt make sense, it flies in the face of 7 seasons of professional and personal characterisation. hes doing this because these emotions are real, he felt them, and he knows now that other people feel them too. a stranger came out of the blue and connected with him. maybe he can appear out of the blue through this ad and connect with someone in the same way. after all, the finale IS called person to person.
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Sep 11, 2022 08:37
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When I first saw the finale I was left feeling giddy. It is incredibly rare that you get to see something that is truly perfect. It managed to come as a complete surprise but also in hindsight be completely obvious. What other way could the show end? Also, how often do you get to accurately describe something as both one of the greatest shows of all time and also as a middle aged mans 70 hours of fan fiction for a television ad?
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Sep 11, 2022 10:57
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i posted in the thread live for most of the last seasons and came away from the finale with the conclusion there was a level of ambiguity in it, though not at the same intensity of something like the sopranos. whether don personally authored the ad or not, this is what the industry does — packages emotion and even enlightenment in such a way to move you to buy the things it wants you to buy. i still feel that way, though i believe at the time i adamantly refused to entertain the notion don made the ad because i didn't want to believe the show was that cynical. since then i've come to accept the possibility don did the hilltop ad, along with the fact mad men is boomer corporate wish fulfillment if you engage in the most vulgar, simplistic reading of it, but that the show also rewards deeper analysis and an acceptance of an oscillation between critique and indulgence. all this despite its universally acknowledged moments of hammer-over-the-head obviousness. still one of the best of all time and unlike most television something i do rewatch on occasion, including one return to the series prompted by this thread
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Sep 11, 2022 11:45
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WampaLord posted:I think it's possible to view the ending both cynically and as positive for Don. If anything, the most alive we've ever seen Don is when he's in the middle of a really good pitch. One could argue that making one of the greatest commercials of all time for Coca Cola is indeed real personal growth and some measure of emotional fulfillment for him. What that says about Don, well, that's up for the viewer to decide. even the cynical reading still has some positive in it. his whole thing from the very first season was sincerely believing that ads should connect with very real, genuine emotions. even if there’s a huge disconnect between the carousel pitch and his actual marriage at that point, you could tell that how he pitched it was how he really felt deep down. the pitch was strong because he himself truly felt the punctum from those photographs
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Sep 11, 2022 12:14
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R. Guyovich posted:i still feel that way, though i believe at the time i adamantly refused to entertain the notion don made the ad because i didn't want to believe the show was that cynical Why would that be cynical? Some ad man, possibly quite like Don, pitched that ad and some executive at Coke approved it expecting it to sell lots more Coke, after all.
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Sep 11, 2022 12:30
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rip don, thought about ads and nirvana'd
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Sep 11, 2022 12:48
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Jerusalem posted:I also on two separate occasions over the last two years accidentally briefly saw a single lines from an episode description before quickly looking away. They were, from memory: I absolutely love the episode descriptions because they have an almost comical level of telling you absolutely nothing about the episode. It's fantastic. Sure, everything they say does come up in the episode at some point, but the context usually makes it something totally different from what you'd expect, or it's actually really unimportant or just a one-off scene that doesn't have anything to do with the episode's actual plot. I recommend checking out some of the "On the Next Mad Men" previews on YouTube, too. In the show's later seasons, they made an absolute artform of telling you absolutely nothing about the episode with those. They're always these weird, dreamlike collections of characters saying dramatic-sounding things or looking serious, then when you watch the episode and see those moments in context, they're almost never the actual drama of the episode.
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Sep 11, 2022 13:46
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My take on the "Hilltop" thing: I think there are enough pointers towards Coca-Cola and Don's potential involvement in the creation of the ad in the last few episodes that it's clear that he must have gone back to McCann and created it. I can understand that this can seem really cynical--that Don had this genuine emotional experience, then turned around and sold it--but I think you have to look at things from Don's perspective. Don loves the creative work of advertising. To him, it's a genuine way that he expresses himself. We see this in a lot of his big pitches, and in how he guides the other creatives and the kind of feedback he gives, or when he mentors Peggy as she's coming up with her Burger Chef pitch, or just how lost he is when he doesn't have that outlet anymore at the start of season 7. To Don, there's nothing cynical or mercenary about his creative work. So if he did indeed return to McCann after his retreat and use his experience there to create "Hilltop," he was doing it from a genuine place, expressing that emotional experience the way Don expresses all his emotional experiences: through a remarkable and memorable work of advertising. To put it another way: the ads Don creates are often how we as the audience know how he truly feels. On a meta level, I suppose that's pretty cynical, the idea that Don's true emotional outlet is through capitalism. But at least, I think it does point to the fact that what Don experienced here was an actual breakthrough for him, something real and genuine and lasting--it's just that he will go on to express that in a very Don Draper way. Don has changed, yes, but that part of him probably never will. Harrow fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 14:02
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I also do sincerely believe Don will remain at least somewhat changed after this. sure, he regressed every time he showed some attempt at revealing the truth about him, but I think the crucial part is that he never actually revealed how he felt about his life, and always stopped just shy of owning/realising what he actually dealt with. in his phonecall to peggy and the subsequent scene he finally lays it all bare, and vocalised what might be the main drive behind his constant regression into alcohol abuse. maybe it's a bit optimistic, but this to me speaks of a realisation that would actually push him towards change, and I don't think him also creating an ad that draws from the experience at the retreat would negate that.
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Sep 11, 2022 15:10
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The reason I'm optimistic that Don's change is a lasting one this time is that season 7 shows us his change happening gradually, in halting steps, sometimes with steps backwards, but ultimately moving forward. He's honest with the important people in his life for most of the season (once he finally tells Megan the truth towards the start of the season, at least). He accepts Freddy Rumsen's help. He throws himself back into copywriting under Peggy and shows humility. He becomes an actual mentor to her, finally. He's honest and open with his daughter, finally. Ultimately none of these things manage to alleviate his intense loneliness and self-loathing, but I think that's what we see playing out in these last few episodes, culminating in his genuine connection with Leonard. He's not "cured," he's not a totally different person, but he's moved forward, in a small but meaningful way, and I think that's why I'm optimistic that it's a real step forward for him. It's not a big, seismic change--that would be unrealistic and he'd be almost certain to backslide--but a gradual one.
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Sep 11, 2022 15:21
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I think that review was too harsh towards Richard. Getting up and leaving in the middle of the phone call was a bad way to do it, but I don't blame him for leaving because she wanted a completely different type of life than he did. Of course starting a production company is going to take up 90% of her time and it's going to tie her to New York (or LA I guess). If they want totally different lifestyles then breaking up is the right move.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:34
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Jerusalem posted:The Carousel. You should read the episode descriptions for the last couple of seasons because they are wonderful in how obtuse they are. Like when Ginsberg gets commited, the episode is summarized as "Peggy helps Ginsberg with a problem"
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Sep 11, 2022 16:43
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Richard's just in a full on retirement mindset. He'd probably get bored of it eventually, he's not that old, but definitely for the next while he doesn't want to do anything but hedonism. I don't think it's a sexist attitude from him so much as just he and Joan having totally different aspirations for the next few years. He's honest about his feelings, even though he tries to ignore them for a time since he and Joan get along so well otherwise, and then in the end he realises that it isn't just one thing in their way, their priorities are completely misaligned. There's no bad guy. They'll both be better off.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:44
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yeah id totally forgotten to mention, theres nothing at all wrong with the richard stuff. hes honestly correct! shes young, has a hunger and desire to build something and prove herself as a woman in what is emphatically still a mans world. its fine by him! he does support her in it and wishes her well, but hes done it and he just wants to retire and travel the world and live a life of leisure that hes earned. he already proved himself, already made his mark. its no flaw in her, or in him. theyre just at different phases of their lives, and being able to recognize that and state it directly is a credit to him, not a mark against him
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Sep 11, 2022 16:45
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I'm not sure Joan and Richard won't sa tay in each other's orbits. He said "no kids" and stormed out, then he came back. Then he did the same thing with "no hyper career". We just don't see the second act of the dynamic. It will be a very modern "brunch" relationship until either Richard has a heart attack and dies or Joan shacks up with a younger actor.
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Sep 11, 2022 19:32
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Paper Lion posted:yeah id totally forgotten to mention, theres nothing at all wrong with the richard stuff. hes honestly correct! shes young, has a hunger and desire to build something and prove herself as a woman in what is emphatically still a mans world. its fine by him! he does support her in it and wishes her well, but hes done it and he just wants to retire and travel the world and live a life of leisure that hes earned. he already proved himself, already made his mark. its no flaw in her, or in him. theyre just at different phases of their lives, and being able to recognize that and state it directly is a credit to him, not a mark against him yeah i dont think richard is even a bad guy, but storming out during a phone call is childish and bad stuff. that reflects poorly on him although i think h is overall mindset otherwise has been.. fine.
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Sep 11, 2022 22:02
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him wanting a different path in life is fine but the way he expresses himself makes it seem like he's trying to shame her for her decision. the term "mansplain" is overused imo but when she talks about what she wants to do, he doesn't even give the arrangement a chance, he tells her he knows better and then walks out. he has a rich manbaby tantrum just like last time
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Sep 11, 2022 22:46
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Yeah, while it's good that Richard has made what he wants very clear, and it is actually for the best that he ends their relationship once it becomes clear they both want very different things.... he goes about it in a very childish, almost petulant way. He doesn't give ultimatums, but he all but tells her,"My way will be better so give up the thing that matters to you to make me happy". Maybe that's an unfair oversimplification, but he handles it in a pretty appalling way and it's not the first time (the aforementioned walking out on her for having a kid) he's done it. You can map out a very likely course of events if they'd stayed together: good times, getting sulky when things aren't EXACTLY how he wants them, storming out.... apologies later, back to the start again. I find it really interesting the way we of course only ever hear his perspective of the end of his first marriage. Coupled with stuff he says about his career as a property developer, he seemed like a very "my way or the highway" guy who is charming when he's feeling good about you but a loving nightmare when he's decided you are in the way of something he wants. I wonder how his wife and kid feel about him, he talks about his marriage in the past tense which makes sense, but even in the very small amount of time we got with him I think it's notable his daughter never really comes up outside of mentioning she graduated and went on a trip to Europe. It's one of those relationships where the timing just wasn't right (Joan makes a similar comment about Roger and Marie getting together), if she was 10 years older or he was 10 years younger things might have been perfect, but they weren't. It's good the relationship ended, but Richard ended it in an awful way, and I'm glad that the last we see of Joan is her being everything she ever wanted - a mother, a boss, and a success - without having to set aside her own interests for a man like she was basically forced to do for most of her life. Of all the major supporting characters, I think she was the one who surprised me the most. She could have easily just been a foil to Peggy and never really developed much beyond that and her little empire of secretaries at Sterling Cooper, but they (and Christina Hendricks, obviously!) made her so much more. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 01:44
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also he did mean it when he says he "just got out of prison" when we first met him right? that wasn't a euphemism? Joan dodged a bullet
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Sep 12, 2022 02:19
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kalel posted:also he did mean it when he says he "just got out of prison" when we first met him right? that wasn't a euphemism? Unless I'm missing a joke, he means he's divorced and retired... in other words, he's finally "free".
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Sep 12, 2022 02:22
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The cocaine scene is also a little...on the nose  They're really pulling on that the business rooms are going to be losing their drink carts and instead of full of coke by the end of the decade.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:40
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I might be biased towards Richard because if I was rich I would travel and do cocaine and I think anybody who would voluntarily work in an office instead is insane.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:48
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i love this show thank you for this thread, Jerusalem I think my favorite scene in the entire thing is Peggy walking into McAnn with The Fisherman's Wife. It's such a perfect portrait of herself and simultaneously hilarious.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:49
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I might be biased towards Richard because if I was rich I would travel and do cocaine and I think anybody who would voluntarily work in an office instead is insane. I'm not even interest in the cocaine part and if I had to "choose" between a lifestyle of waking up and deciding that I'm flying to Positano right now or going to work...
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Sep 12, 2022 03:51
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GoutPatrol posted:The cocaine scene is also a little...on the nose It's definitely the show's last big "Thing sure were different then, huh!" swing. I forget where I read it - maybe Tom & Lorenzo's recaps? - but it's also a pretty effective "Here's the long tail of the permissive attitudes of the 60's" moment; Prim and proper office manager Joan Holloway in 1960 almost certainly would've had some serious reservations about trying a bump, now she doesn't bat an eye.  (From the very fun Tumblr "Mad Men With Things Drawn On Them") Finding that screen reminded me that Matt Weiner shared with Vulture the writing team's list of topics they were interested in covering in the last two seasons: 
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Sep 12, 2022 04:07
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So they DID consider bringing Sal back!  Also, I thought Richard and Joan's cocaine chat was adorable. Just the way they pinballed through their topics, Richard's,"SURE WHY NOT?" to asking if they should get married and his,"NAH IT'S COOL!" when she suddenly goes,"Do we HAVE to get married?  " before they just leap at each other 
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 04:20
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Harrow posted:I recommend checking out some of the "On the Next Mad Men" previews on YouTube, too. In the show's later seasons, they made an absolute artform of telling you absolutely nothing about the episode with those. They're always these weird, dreamlike collections of characters saying dramatic-sounding things or looking serious, then when you watch the episode and see those moments in context, they're almost never the actual drama of the episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuNOt7lNmkk I forget if I talked about this in spoilers a year-plus ago, but I read that this came about because Matt Weiner was VERY sensitive about "spoilers," at any level. He kept getting increasingly complex with his demands for the next episode previews, until by the end of the show the agreement he had reached with AMC was insanely byzantine...one of the stipulations, I believe, was that they couldn't cut a preview together with two consecutive lines. Which is why it's a lot of weird reaction shots and people either asking a question without hearing the answer, or giving a response without the set-up.
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Sep 12, 2022 05:01
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The next time on mad Men really was its own sublime artform.
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Sep 12, 2022 05:05
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JethroMcB posted:Finding that screen reminded me that Matt Weiner shared with Vulture the writing team's list of topics they were interested in covering in the last two seasons: Having Ken be an account man for the NRA with his eyepatch...good content Frank...Gleason? also being a war hero? Don't think there are any other Franks. Then the only older man we don't hear about war experience would be Ted. And more about Cooper's backstory would be interesting (the last line being Roger wondering if his sister was still alive.)
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Sep 12, 2022 08:29
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Peggy landed on the future but the future landed on Joan. She likes a certain degree of poutiness to her men because that's how traditional patriarchal power structures work. Richard will be back. And he will leave again. But each time Joan's power and hold over him will grow.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:16
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lol Ho-Ho What a bizarre guy
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Sep 14, 2022 04:59
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Sash! posted:lol Ho-Ho Pete's quiet little,".....I think he was crying...." line always cracks me up 
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Sep 14, 2022 06:49
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roger telling don he missed him still owns bones. great season 7 moment
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Sep 14, 2022 22:15
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Lady Radia posted:roger telling don he missed him still owns bones. great season 7 moment that statement w/o context just reminded me of this fun recut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0XSM9-bL8o
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Sep 14, 2022 22:25
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How does everyone feel about Peggy and her ending? I kind of feel she is underserved by the last batch of episodes development wise and especially her relationship with Stan.
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Sep 16, 2022 01:35
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i like her ending up with stan, it feels honest. there's no need for a huge extrapolation of it all - they just fit together at this point in their lives. i don't think it means they just stay married forever. honestly i think peggy is more likely to cheat on him first, on some random trip elsewhere while stan is happily at home drawing a pic. but in the meantime i think they would have a happy life. i lost sympathy with peggy more and more as it went on - she becomes, to me, a darker picture of female empowerment. she doesn't use it to help anybody else, it doesn't widen her perspective, it is simply about getting what she deserves. her walking into mcCann with the original tentacle porn isn't a moment of triumph to me, but it's a statement of who peggy eventually decides she wants to be. yet another dominator.
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Sep 16, 2022 01:39
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PriorMarcus posted:How does everyone feel about Peggy and her ending? I kind of feel she is underserved by the last batch of episodes development wise and especially her relationship with Stan. The relationship has less chance of surviving than pete and trudy staying together.
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Sep 16, 2022 01:43
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i think pete and trudy have about a 95% chance of staying together after this pete gets it. he will never do better. and trudy oves him, but more than that, she just wants the life he represents to her. i mean let's keep in mind that trudy is kind of bonkers, also. it's not just him. put in a couple good years up there in detroit and it'll be like none of this ever happened. tammy won't remember, and there'll be a couple more on the way.
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Sep 16, 2022 01:45
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roomtone posted:i think pete and trudy have about a 95% chance of staying together after this they're in wichita not detroit
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Sep 16, 2022 03:22
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