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A Buttery Pastry posted:But that's exactly my point. This incest poo poo is treated as Targ weirdness, when it wasn't that unusual historically. Hence they're applying modern sensibilities to the non-Targs. Ohhhh, I see what you mean. Someone did a big ol' post on this in either this thread or the spoiler one but their take on medieval Europe was that people were pretty grossed out about the nobles that did this even though it was common in some parts of Europe.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:03
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Kind of the point of the Targs doing it is a way to demonstrate that they are above the laws of gods and men.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:06
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TeaJay posted:So did Daemon back out because he was surprised Rhaenyra was so into it and couldn't just dominate her like he thought? His drunken stupor afterwards was great, though, as was everything with King Goon. That this question can be asked and any number of plausible responses could work is proof that the show is top notch tv. My own interpretation is that Daemon really does love his brother and he knows if he has sex with Rhaenyra, the king will hate him forever. It's the line he won't cross because for all of his many faults, he actually does want his brother's love and trust in return. He wants her but he knows that if he takes her without Viserys's permission / blessing, it will permanently destroy their relationship. When he appeals to Viserys in the throne room to have them married, it really is what he wants. The real difference between the brothers is that Viserys is trying very hard to honor the traditions of Westeros in order to keep the realm stable. That the writers have done this in conjunction with the prophecy is in my opinion, very cool because it explains why Viserys is obsessed with not taking risks, not making enemies, etc. Daemon doesn't give a poo poo about any of that and thinks the Targaryens can and should do whatever the gently caress they want. This combined with his impulsive nature is the source of their conflict. It's a great portrayal of a brotherly relationship and it's the heart of the show so far.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:10
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Platystemon posted:Bloodless Worm Blood Wyrm wasn't able to finish the job in the Stepstones too. Daemon had to use deception to finally penetrate the caves.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:11
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, sure, you can say it's just not part of their customs - it's just kinda weird, since it's a custom that in our world has existed across the planet and social classes. And also, the reason why a noble family might pursue it is just as present in Westeros as it was in medieval Europe. Basically, it comes across to me as less a deliberate choice and more the writers letting their assumptions about the world color what should be a very alien world to us, whether that includes GRRM or not. Westeros having taboos against slavery and kin marriage may very well be lazy writing on GRRM's part, but within the context of the show's universe Alicent's reaction is perfectly understandable. Something I vaguely recall from the books (and could very well be wrong about) is that the Faith of the Seven discourages incest. Kin marriage notably declined in Western Europe following the adoption of Christianity (Women who couldn't remarry into their kin group often donated wealth to the church, hence the churches discouragement of the practice), it could be the case that the state religion opposes avuncular marriage for its own reasons.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:13
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PostNouveau posted:Ohhhh, I see what you mean. Anyway, I think what I really want is for them to just portray the nobles as hosed up freaks, just like our current ruling class. e: Not like genetically, just because they exist in a really hosed up environment. The Crown did a pretty good job at this, though I am not sure they intended it to come off quite as freaky as it does. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 19:18
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My read is that Daemon reels off an extremely cogent political argument while so dead drunk he can't get his face off the floor, which leads me to believe that's something he thought up ahead of time. So at the very least, "call Rhaenyra's virtue into question so I can nab her as soiled goods" was premeditated.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:42
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First cousin marriage isn't particularly uncommon in Westeros, Tywin and Joanna Lannister being the biggest example. Anything closer than that is a religious taboo, though, and only seen in Targaryens.DJ_Mindboggler posted:Something I vaguely recall from the books (and could very well be wrong about) is that the Faith of the Seven discourages incest.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:43
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CapnAndy posted:My read is that Daemon reels off an extremely cogent political argument while so dead drunk he can't get his face off the floor, which leads me to believe that's something he thought up ahead of time. So at the very least, "call Rhaenyra's virtue into question so I can nab her as soiled goods" was premeditated. This interpretation kind of requires Daemon to have been playing a long con on Rhaenyra for many years, including the time before she was named heir. It's possible, but it wouldn't be very good writing IMO.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:00
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This interpretation kind of requires Daemon to have been playing a long con on Rhaenyra for many years, including the time before she was named heir. It's possible, but it wouldn't be very good writing IMO.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:04
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I think wanting to gently caress her was "premeditated" in the sense that he seemed to be close to her before he vanished for 4 years, and now he's back and she is a "woman grown". I don't doubt that he took her out so they could have a place to finally get down. I just don't think he had plans beyond that. Like was said previously, he likely realizes he is about to hurt his brother and screw up her life, so he runs off.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:08
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Pan Dulce posted:I'm glad a female director, Clare Kilner, directed this episode. I don't recall who has directed the previous sex scenes in Game of Thrones, but they always felt, sort of "look at the tits and rear end," male-gaze-y and this felt about as tasteful as sex can get on HBO. Something notable is that since GoT came out, intimacy coordinators have become more of a thing, and HotD has one. Apparently on the old GoT show they just told actors to wing it in their sex scenes. LOL strong Lyanna Mormont energy off of this kid. "You want to talk poo poo about my old-rear end House you're about to find out" -- Anyways, the whole Rhaenyra portions of the episode end up being really creepy. Mostly intentionally. Uncle D comes home, immediately starts flirting with her after he gave a nice necklace last time he saw her, mega incest grooming vibes. Then he gives her some boy clothes, sneaks, her into the city when he knows how sheltered she is, shows her excitement her and gets her drunk. Then takes her to a sex show and initiatives sex with her. All of this is super creepy and groomy. Then, she comes back all horned up and aggressively comes on to her guard, who's also her subordinate. She hired him, she could have him executed. He literally tells her "no" verbally and she doesn't stop. That's a rape. You can argue he could have left at some point, and overpowered her, but again, there's a power imbalance that isn't necessary physical going on here.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:08
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I was talking about this last night. Daemon plucked off her cap in the brothel which pretty much broadcasted 'TARGS HERE' to anyone present, which plays into the whole 'he wanted to be caught in the act so he could more easily take her as a niece-wife (ugh) when she had a tarnished reputation. Of course that very well could have been a 'let's get a better look at you' thing, too.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:08
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Ubersandwich posted:I was talking about this last night. Daemon plucked off her cap in the brothel which pretty much broadcasted 'TARGS HERE' to anyone present, which plays into the whole 'he wanted to be caught in the act so he could more easily take her as a niece-wife (ugh) when she had a tarnished reputation. It can be both. I think his character intentionally wanted them to be seen, to strengthen his position and undercut hers. But he's also a horny chaos gremlin with behavior issues who lives off of impulse.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:10
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Ubersandwich posted:I was talking about this last night. Daemon plucked off her cap in the brothel which pretty much broadcasted 'TARGS HERE' to anyone present, which plays into the whole 'he wanted to be caught in the act so he could more easily take her as a niece-wife (ugh) when she had a tarnished reputation. I read it as him wanting them to get busted
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Sep 12, 2022 20:12
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This interpretation kind of requires Daemon to have been playing a long con on Rhaenyra for many years, including the time before she was named heir. It's possible, but it wouldn't be very good writing IMO.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:21
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He was already busted saying things he shouldn't be saying in a brothel once, so he knows from experience he is being watched in those places.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:23
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MrMojok posted:Personally I think she’s been so great all through it, that I’m going to be kinda bummed by the time-jump. Extremely this, I'd rather keep her and current Alicent (though no slight on Olivia Cooke), just give 'em some make up wrinkles around the eyes and change their hairdos or something. Same with Paddy, I know he's not long for the show but I love him as King Goon. Also lmao at that kid merking the guy shittalking him. Way to go, buddy.
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Sep 12, 2022 21:01
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it is a bit weird to have two actors be so central to establishing a series and then replace them both halfway through season 1. you get shows with old/young versions of characters but it's usually two timelines like yellowjackets that continue on, or the switch happens after the first episode. it's also even weirder because the first 4 episodes have taken place over like 5 years and rhaenyra hasn't changed appearance at all. she's already an adult. milly alcott is the star of the show right now, and she's just gonna be gone in two weeks. puts a lot of pressure on the new actor coming in to be good because people are already attached to her as rhaenyra. i think milly struggles with the accent so much that i'm open to having someone else take the role, but it's always awkward to have a character develop with one person portraying it and then have someone else step in.
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Sep 12, 2022 21:08
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i think there will be a few more milly & co scenes even after the time jump this season, they'll establish the major repercussions of the time jump and then circle back on more minor character stuff. we'll find out a character who used to like someone hates them now and we'll get a flashback scene explaining why. next season we'll have cold opens galore with them
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Sep 12, 2022 21:22
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CapnAndy posted:My read is that Daemon reels off an extremely cogent political argument while so dead drunk he can't get his face off the floor, which leads me to believe that's something he thought up ahead of time. So at the very least, "call Rhaenyra's virtue into question so I can nab her as soiled goods" was premeditated. There's definitely more to Matt Daemon than just being an impulsive hothead. We've been shown he has knowledge of the hidden passages around the Red Keep, allowing him to spy on the Small Council and pop into Rhaenyra's private chambers. That's deeply hidden knowledge that some rear end in a top hat second son isn't going to stumble upon by accident. Up until this episode I'd thought that Otto was the schemer, with spies in the brothel in the first episode goading Daemon into saying something dumb. But with it revealed that Mysaria is one of his moles, maybe Daemon has been deliberately using her to feed disinformation to Otto. While very hungover, he doesn't seem too surprised to see her getting a bag of coin from some street urchin. He made a deliberate show in the brothel of "hey look! Targaryens gonna gently caress", without actually going ahead with it. I think Rhaenyra responding in kind was unanticipated, and there's no way he'd expect her to return to the Keep with her horn on ready to gently caress Ser Criston, which could be interesting if she decides not to drink the moon tea. I've no idea what happens in the book but them ending the episode with that tea suggests it's going to play some role later. The scene with Otto preparing to tell the King his daughter is a horny uncle fucker changed my mind about him. He's ambitious, sure, but he really didn't want to tell Viserys. Him psyching himself up, knowing that this was going to turn into a shitshow, but feeling duty-bound to speak what he believed to be the truth, changed my opinion of him. That the 'facts' he'd been presented with didn't match reality suggest he's being fed disinfo in order to bring him down. Daemon spying on and smirking at the Small Council when Otto is doing his "anyone but Daemon" rhetoric in episode 1 suggests that he had plans to take Otto out. Politics aside, I hope a dragon steps on some more people in future episodes.
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Sep 12, 2022 21:25
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Clyde Radcliffe posted:There's definitely more to Matt Daemon than just being an impulsive hothead. We've been shown he has knowledge of the hidden passages around the Red Keep, allowing him to spy on the Small Council and pop into Rhaenyra's private chambers. That's deeply hidden knowledge that some rear end in a top hat second son isn't going to stumble upon by accident. I've been a huge proponent of Daemon just being a dumbass, but your argument is really good. I'm going to have to think on that. What's really funny about this show is that because the book it's based off of is a historical re-telling of events using dubious sources, book readers actually don't know what's going to happen in a lot of these episodes, or what's going through people's minds. I'm now a dirty book-reader (read the whole thing about a week ago), but those of us in the spoiler thread had no idea what actually was going to happen this week. The maester just records that Daemon was kicked out of the city...again...and goes off on several theories all ranging around accusations that he deflowered the princess. But the show swerved on us and he actually didn't! The biggest "vague" part of the story comes next week, as it's the only part where all of the maester's sources are really untrustworthy and there's no clear idea what kicked off what comes next.
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Sep 12, 2022 21:33
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The kid fight is so goddamn funny. I love how there were like 30 adults in the room who could have easily stopped it.
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Sep 12, 2022 21:39
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Sentinel Red posted:Extremely this, I'd rather keep her and current Alicent (though no slight on Olivia Cooke), just give 'em some make up wrinkles around the eyes and change their hairdos or something. I feel they kind of did this with Alicent already. In episode one her hair, makeup and clothing make her look the same age as Rhaenyra but in the most recent episode she seems somehow older. I can't put my finger on it but I think it's more sombre costumes and tied back hair giving her some tradwife look, which would be in keeping with the horrible situation she's in. alongside Emily Carey completely selling how loving soul-destroying it is to transition from a carefree young girl to a baby machine for the Goon King. Meanwhile Ryaenyra still looks and acts like she did in episode one, making large parts of this episode very creepy. I think someone ITT said the actor is 19 but she looks and acts like the 15-year old she was playing at the start of the season.
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Sep 12, 2022 21:44
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She’s actually the older of the two by a few years. I do agree though she appears younger and doesn’t look like she’s aged a day over the multi year time skip.
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Sep 12, 2022 22:06
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PostNouveau posted:The kid fight is so goddamn funny. I love how there were like 30 adults in the room who could have easily stopped it. I wonder if Ser Hugh of House Jazz thought he'd look good in front of the Princess by heckling a little kid trying to do a sincere speech ... and then get brutally stabbed to death (?) by said kid Not a huge moment of honor for him.
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Sep 12, 2022 22:10
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TeaJay posted:I wonder if Ser Hugh of House Jazz thought he'd look good in front of the Princess by heckling a little kid trying to do a sincere speech ... and then get brutally stabbed to death (?) by said kid I assume that kid died. (He seemed very young too. I think he was supposed to be like a 16-year-old heckling a 13-year-old) It just makes it much funnier if he died because it makes the failure of all the adults larger.
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Sep 12, 2022 22:12
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PostNouveau posted:I assume that kid died. (He seemed very young too. I think he was supposed to be like a 16-year-old heckling a 13-year-old) The fun thing is I think that was supposed to be at Storms End and that guy was clearly a Baratheon. Dude hosed around and found out in his own living room. vvvv Oh I missed that, it may have been a horse instead of a stag Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 22:14
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The kid was a Blackwood and I'm pretty sure the teenager was a from House Bracken. A running joke in all of the novels is that whenever someone makes the mistake of inviting members of both families to the same place then they will find some excuse to get in a fight and kill each other. They are neighboring houses, and have been feuding so long no one remembers why they hate each other. They literally will take opposite sides on any conflict just so they have an excuse to invade each other's lands and kill each other.
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Sep 12, 2022 22:22
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GOT is back baby
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Sep 12, 2022 22:39
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Brigadier Sockface posted:GOT is back baby Finally, we all have got hot d.
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Sep 12, 2022 22:42
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Lord Hydronium posted:Yep, and it's a big sticking point between the early Targs and the Faith until Jahaerys gets them to say that it's cool, but only for Targaryens. It's not just a sticking point but big enough that several hundreds to thousands die in the insurrections that occur over history because Targ incest is a big reminder that they don't actually follow the Faith. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 22:44
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PostNouveau posted:I assume that kid died. (He seemed very young too. I think he was supposed to be like a 16-year-old heckling a 13-year-old) I have to rewatch the scene but I swear some of the adults were all  after the blades came out. I guess Rhany wasn't the only bored noble in the room.
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Sep 12, 2022 22:47
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Jaxyon posted:Then, she comes back all horned up and aggressively comes on to her guard, who's also her subordinate. She hired him, she could have him executed. He literally tells her "no" verbally and she doesn't stop. That's a rape. 
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Sep 12, 2022 23:06
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I think they were all just ready to see a nerd get bashed. I like how even Rhaenyra was like "I kinda like that one" about the jerk then just walks by the kid like he doesn't exist, then he dark souls crits the jerk and she doesn't even turn around. that seems really dark runaway dog fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 23:13
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PostNouveau posted:I assume that kid died. (He seemed very young too. I think he was supposed to be like a 16-year-old heckling a 13-year-old) I think the show is, uh, showing us that 200 years before the events of GoT, it was still OK to kill another motherfucker in the name of honor whenever, wherever, as long as both parties produce blades at the ready. That duel culture can be hard to wring out of a male dominated culture and was so prevalent in our own recent history that some US states still make you sign a pledge that you will not participate in a duel if you are elected to a public office. We’re being shown a Westeros that, while still in a ‘silver age’ and more beautiful than we one we are used to, it is still two centuries behind in cultural customs. If I remember correctly, tourney jousts and melees didn’t necessarily have to be blood sport. In the HotD tourney, knights (mostly noble sons, no less) were straight up executing each other on the ground. Not even a chance for a chivalrous tap out or offering their armor as ransom.
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Sep 12, 2022 23:16
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i think it's clear rhaenyra isn't a heroic character. people (not here) are attributing a lot of traits that she doesn't really have - she's not kind, she's not interested in the actual process of ruling, and hasn't really shown any wisdom beyond being able to see that otto is out for himself, which viserys and probably everybody already knew anyway. the only thing she really has going for her is confidence, but she hasn't been doing anything with it yet. i think because of the partiarchy in westeros people are going to sympathise with her, which is fine because none of the other major characters are noble either they're all shits, but i don't see any sign that she would be a good queen so far. she's a shithead 90% of the time and only thinks about herself. they're doing a better job of it than with daenerys, who could be mistaken for heroic really easily for a lot of GOT, but i'm expecting her to do some terrible things later on and have a lot of people going 'but i thought she was the good guy' anyway, even though she hasn't done a single good thing so far. she just doesn't want to be a noblewoman.
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Sep 12, 2022 23:18
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The thing that also struck me about Rhaenyra’s scene with Criston is just how childlike she was. Normally what you see in these scenes is sultry conversation and seduction or whatever. But all she does is giggle and prance, seemingly incapable of verbal communication, like a literal kid. Until that point in the show she’s depicted as a pretty assertive woman. It made the scene all kinds of hosed up imo.
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Sep 12, 2022 23:58
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Vegetable posted:The thing that also struck me about Rhaenyra’s scene with Criston is just how childlike she was. Normally what you see in these scenes is sultry conversation and seduction or whatever. But all she does is giggle and prance, seemingly incapable of verbal communication, like a literal kid. Until that point in the show she’s depicted as a pretty assertive woman. It made the scene all kinds of hosed up imo. It is hosed up. While she's probably not 100% innocent, she's pretty sheltered and likely has never ever been into kings landing without an entourage. Her uncle, who's been grooming her for years, took her to a literal brothel and tried to sleep with her. She's in many ways a child, regardless of her political power and age.
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Sep 13, 2022 00:13
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Xiahou Dun posted:Finally, we all have got hot d. aw man. i just made this joke somewhere else. now everybody's gonna think im a dang thief
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Sep 13, 2022 00:18
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