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Once again I'm not sure those are really "woke". Racially segregated media is a story as old as segregation. And color-blind casting and reverse race casting goes back to at least the '60s. And all three of those are not without their problematic discourse, though the last two tend to be the focus of modern liberal Ireland. Unless you think "wokeness" transcends time as opposed to being a function of the current political climate. I'd argue "wokeness" is the product of two contradictory trends finding an irrational (fascist) synthesis. Thesis: We should expand the canon to include all voices (90s-00s) Antithesis: We can extract profit from more consumers by being inclusive (00s-10s). Note: This is specifically about extracting profits from integrated markets. There have always been racially segregated products (try bringing coke to Eid, I dare you) and there have always been cross-racial products (the suburban love of hip-hop and the commodification of black masculinity) but intersectional markets are new Synthesis: Woke corporate pandering. The pain point is that well intentioned good ideas meet capitalism and make bad things
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Sep 13, 2022 02:46
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Presented without further comment
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Sep 13, 2022 15:18
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It's over, wokecels! P.S.: please do not bully me
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Sep 13, 2022 18:35
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For real, though, if the new Ariel gets black girls excited like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp4yfmOOv6Q Then I'm all for it 
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Sep 13, 2022 23:13
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mobby_6kl posted:Presented without further comment 'fix' the movie Not racist
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Sep 13, 2022 23:19
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"High IQ" is also super coding there.
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Sep 14, 2022 01:23
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The post refers to existence of a black actor as "woke." There is no mysterious coding to decipher to figure out if it is racist.
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Sep 14, 2022 01:44
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Shiroc posted:The post refers to existence of a black actor as "woke." There is no mysterious coding to decipher to figure out if it is racist. It's the cherry on top since IQ is super Euro-centric, as it is around 50 percent based on education, which nullifies any street smarts. Anyone who ever took an IQ test that is actually intelligent can immediately notice the flaws as so much is based in vocabulary or being able to quickly reference mathematical equations like area - and they are timed. Someone that doesn't know how to calculate volume or area by default will be slower figuring it out on their own (while using an actual smarter method since they're inventing it on the spot!) and thus have a lower IQ, even if they get that question right in the end. IQ is one of the last vestiges people use to claim white supremacy and its a whole different entire level of red flag.
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Sep 14, 2022 01:56
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that's still a lot of extra words to act like the "we fixed the n-ahem-WOKE actor" didn't already make the position clear
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Sep 14, 2022 02:12
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Shiroc posted:that's still a lot of extra words to act like the "we fixed the n-ahem-WOKE actor" didn't already make the position clear As I said earlier, there are absolutely cases where the studio or whoever makes decisions for cynical reasons that don't really advance any causes, but that's what the chuds mean 90% of the time.
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Sep 14, 2022 11:11
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Go Woke Go Broke (GWGB?) assumes catering to a tiny minority at the expense of the majority will cost money, throwing bad money after good or whatever you call it. But it doesn't account for the possibility that the opposite might happen. Representation doesn't have to be a binary thing. It's not like black audiences refuse to see all white films. Minorities are pretty accustomed to seeing stories that are not all about them. Having better representation is good, and plenty of white/male/straight viewers can handle it. If it were really box office poison then it would be more evident, but beyond that companies as big as Disney can afford to dip their toe in the water (even if, as Das Boo eloquently described is done as. rather hollow and pandering efforts). The other thing is variety. The people that want very homogenous content also predictably complain there's nothing new or innovative. Like I saw the Top Gun sequel, and aside from adding a woman and some poc jet pilots it was pretty much the first movie all over again beat for beat. Reactionaries praised it as an anti woke alternative but really it's just more of the same, simply one of the better cynical remake sequels if we are going to praise it. There's only so many generic Whiteman protagonists you can write without it being really derivative. So it's either unoriginal, or it's woke. And reactionaries want to have it both ways.
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Sep 14, 2022 12:00
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This is more film adjacent (a blurry line due to streaming content), but I'm finding She-Hulk entertaining but confused about what it wants to say. The show knows that it was going to cause "controversy" and lampshades and relishes it with fourth-wall breaking and diegetic details, but its own girlboss messaging is really muddled. The most recent episode introduced a party-girl called Madisynn that skirts some really broad early 2000s misogyny. There's a plot-line about how Jen Walters can't get any dates but She-Hulk can that said absolutely nothing. If anything, it feels like the show has pre-empted some of the conversations that will exist around a show like this, but has no appetite for engaging with them. I don't expect a lot from a Disney/Marvel show, but there's a really hollowness on display here. I guess that sense of hollowness is what separates something that feels sincere from something that feels either pandering or written by committee for me.
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Sep 14, 2022 12:58
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You Are A Elf posted:Nowadays, character building and growth are thrown out the window for cheap and insincere representation, so you're left with a woman/POC/LGBTQ+ person who is devoid of character and is perfect from the start, because to give them a stimulating backstory so the viewer can relate to them would be asking too much. What we end up with is a "strong WOMAN/POC/LGBTQ+ character" instead of a "STRONG woman/POC/LGBTQ+ CHARACTER". Those are secondary traits that, unless they are actually relevant to the story or to other characters, shouldn't even matter. First and foremost, the primary trait of any movie or TV character is that they are a person like you and me, and then you work from there. How different is this, really, from the cavalcade of 80's/90's action flicks that were trying to ride the success of Rambo and the like by presenting a buff, oiled white dude with basically no characterization? Countless bad, forgettable movies that have been forgotten and discarded because they were bad? Bad writing isn't new. Bad writing is as old as fiction itself. And cynical marketing capitalizing on the zeitgeist of the time is as old as capitalism. I don't think that anything's that different "nowadays". I think you're just failing to take survivorship bias into account; the movies from yesteryear seem better because the countless bad ones just get forgotten and lost to time. Yesteryear had just as many dogshit, written-by-committee movies (well, maybe not by volume but certainly by proportion) as this year does. Decon fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 14:57
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Disco Pope posted:introduced a party-girl called Madisynn that skirts some really broad early 2000s misogyny. Why do you say that it skirts misogyny?
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Sep 14, 2022 19:48
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Panfilo posted:Go Woke Go Broke (GWGB?) assumes catering to a tiny minority at the expense of the majority will cost money, throwing bad money after good or whatever you call it. But it doesn't account for the possibility that the opposite might happen. Yes, it's true that most are bad at prognostications and extrapolations (regardless of ideology) regarding financials or reception of a given film (or other forms of media). There are all kinds of assumptions built in. I remember reading rightist comments that were attempting to link protests in 1968 and Nixon's rebuttal win to 2020 protests with Trump's inevitable win. A whole lot can change in fifty years. Conservatives are more likely to use outmoded patterns of thinking. That's one reason some get stuck in a past paradigm and cannot escape it. It leads to increasingly bizarre beliefs and eventually denial of reality. The more conservative a mindset someone has the more resistant they'll be to change in general so that's why there will always be many pining for days of yore or whatever i.e. "Back in year 19XX they made movies like this and now they don't and that's not right." There are also lots of people who really wish they could go to back to their teen years like Uncle Rico in Napoleon Dynamite. There are thousands of older, diverse, unique films out there but general audiences usually won't watch them. Ironically, a lot of it's because many conservatives cannot identify well with conservatives from decades back. The further you go back the more racist and antiquated the media becomes.* The same could be said for other ideologies as well. Many liberals today don't give much support for libertine films of yesterdecade. Another issue is a lot of viewers want a continuous mountaintop experience when going to see a film. That's not a realistic expectation. Conservatives want "more of the same" in perpetuity. They want Top Gun: Razzamatazz Edition with bigger guns, faster jets, orgasmic explosions and a smattering of sex with a dash of racism etc. But the cold hard truth is that they're never going to have those foundational movie experiences again. *PS A thought experiment: IF an actual movie was released today with lots of blackface, white characters being extremely racist and just general KKK ideology. How much $$$ would it make in the US? Nobody can say for certain but I don't think it'd be raking in hundreds of millions of USD. TLDR: Trump lost, time machines don't exist and Tom Cruise isn't immortal. Zogo fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 22:48
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Panfilo posted:Think we may have hit bedrock here I was thinking about films from a few decades back and how they'd be received today. The first one released that might still get lambasted for being woke (if released today) might be Remember the Titans. It has a lot of stuff in it that'd still bother some today. Decon posted:I don't think that anything's that different "nowadays". I think you're just failing to take survivorship bias into account; the movies from yesteryear seem better because the countless bad ones just get forgotten and lost to time. Yesteryear had just as many dogshit, written-by-committee movies (well, maybe not by volume but certainly by proportion) as this year does. Yeah, the same thing happens with a lot of old TV shows. Only the premier episodes get broadcast today and it makes it look like every episode back in the olden days was majestic.
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Sep 14, 2022 22:58
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Zogo posted:I was thinking about films from a few decades back and how they'd be received today. The first one released that might still get lambasted for being woke (if released today) might be Remember the Titans. It has a lot of stuff in it that'd still bother some today.
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Sep 15, 2022 09:20
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Noam Chomsky posted:Women, BIPOC, and LGBTQ+ people appear in it and aren't treated as objects. This really is key to keep in mind, these people's arguments seem absurd and contradictory because they are, and they love it. This is also why trying to call out conservatives for their blatant hypocrisy never has and cannot work- they see it only as a successful trick, and by having you buy into the positions they claim they have, they've already won. They don't care what your words are as long as they're getting attention and people are listening to what they say, and they want you to be frustrated into a meltdown so they can literally calmhitler.jpg at you.
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Sep 15, 2022 10:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:This really is key to keep in mind, these people's arguments seem absurd and contradictory because they are, and they love it. This is also why trying to call out conservatives for their blatant hypocrisy never has and cannot work- they see it only as a successful trick, and by having you buy into the positions they claim they have, they've already won. They don't care what your words are as long as they're getting attention and people are listening to what they say, and they want you to be frustrated into a meltdown so they can literally calmhitler.jpg at you. Does this not work the other way, too? It's impossible to complain about any show that has a diversity shield without immediately being lumped in with American far right moguls. If you think the shot of Galadriel grinning for the only time in the whole show in a corny horseback scene looked goofy, the entire TV IV thread jumps at you to project stuff about beauty expectations and sexism on you. Spermando fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 12:09
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Spermando posted:Does this not work the other way, too? It's impossible to complain about any show that has a diversity shield without immediately being lumped in with American far right moguls. If you think the shot of Galadriel grinning for the only time in the whole show in a corny horseback scene looked goofy, the entire TV IV thread jumps at you to project stuff about beauty expectations and sexism on you. The key is to A: make it clear that you're criticising it for poor quality that does not make up for any merits of representation, and 2: not to validate the stupid who are usually just on the other end of being indistinguishable from trolls trying to get attention by crying bigotry
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Sep 15, 2022 12:30
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The key is to A: make it clear that you're criticising it for poor quality that does not make up for any merits of representation, quote:But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words
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Sep 15, 2022 12:34
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I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. Also, TV IV is full of incredibly stupid people.
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Sep 15, 2022 12:39
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Spermando posted:Does this not work the other way, too? It's impossible to complain about any show that has a diversity shield without immediately being lumped in with American far right moguls. If you think the shot of Galadriel grinning for the only time in the whole show in a corny horseback scene looked goofy, the entire TV IV thread jumps at you to project stuff about beauty expectations and sexism on you. Need the entire context here. Sometimes people are jumping down people's throats because they're virtue signaling. At other times, it's because of incredibly bad word usage that throw up red flags or using coded language or dogwhistles which makes it seem like the opinion is coming from a certain place.
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Sep 15, 2022 13:01
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Disco Pope posted:I guess that sense of hollowness is what separates something that feels sincere from something that feels either pandering or written by committee for me. That's a pretty good summary.
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Sep 15, 2022 13:18
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Disco Pope posted:
You'd think people would care about legacy more. Soulless made by corproation movies like the Crying Game are a dime a dozen whereas everyone remembers the first time they watched Stargate.
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Sep 15, 2022 17:28
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2nd Amendment posted:You'd think people would care about legacy more. Soulless made by corproation movies like the Crying Game are a dime a dozen whereas everyone remembers the first time they watched Stargate. Did you pick the movies for these examples with a random number generator?
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Sep 15, 2022 17:36
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the term "woke" is not a useful model for understanding these issues and exists primarily as a pejorative for conservatives to throw around amid the culture wars. that said, i think there are two issues at play here that others have already touched upon. the first is just straight white men not liking films that try to center experiences outside of their own and being anxious about their status declining relative to other groups. these individuals see diverse casting as a threat to their own cultural hegemony. they also see changes in the industry (motivated by major studios becoming aware of unmet demand in the market) as an implicit critique of themselves and their interests. what does it say about them that they loved a movie later found to have massive failures in its portrayal of other groups? the other is just superficial portrayals of gender, sexuality, and race from companies who want to profit from audiences without having anything to say about them. disney has been mentioned in this thread repeatedly and i think it is an instructive example. the company frequently portrays LGBTQ+ individuals only as objects and ornaments to the main action, never providing room for their perspective. your typical disney family movie will have a character talk about how they are "different" and allude vaguely to some kind of difficult past, only to then shunt that character off to the margins and reduce them to a shallow caricature. elsewhere disney will present a Strong Female Character who is meant to address criticism of the "demure" women in Disney's older movies but there will be no explanation as to why this woman exists as she does, how her understanding of her womanhood informs her behavior, etc. she only exists as a meta-commentary on past Disney movies to show audiences that the studio is forward-thinking and progressives. chuds often rightfully label the latter as lazy and superficial because it is. it's just that their solutions are braindead racist nonsesne
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Sep 15, 2022 18:10
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DeimosRising posted:Did you pick the movies for these examples with a random number generator? Big Jaye Davidson fan maybe?
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Sep 15, 2022 18:18
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A good portrayal of why going woke doesn't hurt business is actually in OK KO. In one of the episodes (spoiling due to a minor status quo update in a show that some people haven't seen), the main characters convince the pow card company to allow their system to recognise Kappa heroes, because the machine that registered the cards wasn't programmed to because Kappas had an unfairly maligned reputation. By the end of the episode they convince the company to make the change, which they do not expecting much, only to end up making so much more money because now Kappas are buying the cards (and there's a lot of them) that they have nowhere to put it. It's a really funny episode conclusion too.
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Sep 15, 2022 22:12
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Decon posted:How different is this, really, from the cavalcade of 80's/90's action flicks that were trying to ride the success of Rambo and the like by presenting a buff, oiled white dude with basically no characterization? Countless bad, forgettable movies that have been forgotten and discarded because they were bad? Yes, those action movies were entirely forgettable except for the good ones that live in our hearts like Die Hard and Predator and such, while no one remembers poo poo like Under Siege 2 and Daylight. I suppose the problem some people have with the new lovely action movies starring Strong Female Character is that they are often accompanied by studio propaganda tour that acts as if this is some brave move to tell some story that needs to be told when yes, it's just the same repackaged boring action movie except the protagonist is a woman. Just like with the guys, 95% is forgettable and tired crap, but I think the marketing and press surrounding them often leads to a backlash because of it. The newest Generic White Guy Action Movie often just doubles down on the "Turn your brain off and watch heads explode" marketing, while minority/women led films (through entirely zero fault of the actors) are often paraded out like they are somehow something better and different. It is cool that women can now be in lovely action movies. They are still lovely action movies. I think a lot of MAGA-Chads who hate women and criticize the movie get lumped in with people who criticize the movies for just sucking in an entirely predictable and generic way. For example, I recently had a friend go on a diatribe against me and my supposed beliefs because I scoffed after they proclaimed Last Jedi to be the best Star Wars movie. I think it kinda sucks, but I think it kinda sucks for reasons entirely unrelated to the presence of minorities in the film. I think John Boyega was the best part of New Star Wars and should have had more screen time, but I still think the last Jedi was a bit of a turd. I am aware of the toxic Star Wars rabid racists and don't want to be lumped in with them either. I don't consider my friend to be some caricature of a SJW or anything, it's just I'm aware that they are Extremely Online and probably spent a good amount of time arguing on Twitter with racist dicks, and now that has somewhat poisoned their brain into thinking they must defend a soulless corporate product against all attacks, legitimate or not, in order to stay on the Good Team. I think a lot of modern film discourse (and marketing) kind of pigeonholes certain movies as Woke or Not and then people will often align themselves with or against the film regardless of its quality to either show their credentials as woke or to show how they hate SJW stuff, and the film kind of gets lost in all the vitriol Mr. Grapes! fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 09:02
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They may have gone on a diatribe at you because you scoffed at them and that isnt a great place for any discussion to start.
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Sep 16, 2022 13:33
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Mr. Grapes! posted:It is cool that women can now be in lovely action movies. They are still lovely action movies. I think a lot of MAGA-Chads who hate women and criticize the movie get lumped in with people who criticize the movies for just sucking in an entirely predictable and generic way. For example, I recently had a friend go on a diatribe against me and my supposed beliefs because I scoffed after they proclaimed Last Jedi to be the best Star Wars movie. I think it kinda sucks, but I think it kinda sucks for reasons entirely unrelated to the presence of minorities in the film. I think John Boyega was the best part of New Star Wars and should have had more screen time, but I still think the last Jedi was a bit of a turd. I am aware of the toxic Star Wars rabid racists and don't want to be lumped in with them either. I don't consider my friend to be some caricature of a SJW or anything, it's just I'm aware that they are Extremely Online and probably spent a good amount of time arguing on Twitter with racist dicks, and now that has somewhat poisoned their brain into thinking they must defend a soulless corporate product against all attacks, legitimate or not, in order to stay on the Good Team. I think TLJ was the best of the sequel trilogy, hands down, but that's gonna turn into a big ol' tangent. I can't speak to your friend's reaction because I didn't see the interaction.... but being someone that liked TLJ, I kinda get it. Some people dismissed the movie wholesale because, well, let's be frank: it had women in leadership roles in the military. Not saying you did that, but the movie had been out for literal hours before people were calling Admiral Holdo "General Karen" and, well, generally being rude and dismissive about the movie because they were mad that women were leaders in it. It was nonstop months of argument that Poe should've been celebrated for getting the Resistance's entire bomber fleet destroyed. Not saying your criticisms are like this, but many of the patently sexist ones rang like they didn't even watch the drat movie. "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." holds generally true imo and only needs a little massaging to fit this situation. That being said, the big issue to me is that it seems that women and minorities simply aren't allowed to be written badly anymore because GamerGate instilled in many a young, white dipshit's mind the idea that bad writing is a product, primarily, of "shoehorned diversity" and that idea simply spread like a virus; they don't think that, for example (sorry to use a video game), Parvati from the Outer Worlds is an asexual woman because a writer genuinely wanted that, but because some suit wanted to check a diversity box.... but the reality is that Parvati's writer is, herself, an asexual woman that wanted Parvati to tell the story of dating as an asexual person (Parvati generally being a character used, imo, to explore the happy ignorance of a young person in a generally hosed up world, so her lighter side story was fitting to me). Decon fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 15:27
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Decon posted:I think TLJ was the best of the sequel trilogy, hands down, but that's gonna turn into a big ol' tangent. Maybe they shouldn't have written the character as "stdh.txt". She's effectively the villain of that plot until it's revealed she was only hiding information at a time of crisis just to have a "and then everyone stood up and clapped" moment. Nobody should be accused of anything simply for not liking that horribly written character.
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Sep 16, 2022 15:47
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Spermando posted:Maybe they shouldn't have written the character as "stdh.txt". She's effectively the villain of that plot until it's revealed she was only hiding information at a time of crisis just to have a "and then everyone stood up and clapped" moment. Nobody should be accused of anything simply for not liking that horribly written character. What poo poo that didn't happen? The reasoning for not revealing info was literally spelled out in the movie. Did you watch it? Also, have you ever interacted with someone that works in or near the military? Need-to-know is how they handle like 90% of info as a baseline. Being mad because your dumb rear end got our bombers blown up doesn't mean you need to know poo poo. Poe is a pilot and squad leader--if his squad isn't deployed, he needs to find a way to occupy his time until he's given new orders, not go barge into the bridge and start shouting at the XO/CO, something that, in any real military, is a real loving good way to get your rear end canned in hours flat. They're followed through a jump--something supposedly impossible barring two things: 1) a spy, 2) new tech that his historically been thought to be impossible. The simpler explanation is a spy, and most characters in the movie agree, vocally, that this is the case. So Holdo acts accordingly, and handles information about her ship on a strict need-to-know basis. Their plan was to leave the ship as bait while they bailed to the nearby planet. If the New Order knows the ship's bait, they're hosed. If the spy, again the primary suspicion as stated by multiple characters, hears the plan, they're hosed. Put it all together, and some pissy pilot that's alread demonstrated catastrophic insubordination does not need to know. So there's two pretty big reasons that some pilot (and, again, that's literally all Poe is--a pilot) doesn't need to know the plan. He needs to find a way to occupy his time till he's told to get in a fighter and shoot stuff because that's his job, the Resistance is a military, and Holdo is the most senior officer present for most of the movie.
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Sep 16, 2022 16:04
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Decon posted:What poo poo that didn't happen? Love that you started your post saying "literally spelled out in the movie" and then described two fan theories that are specifically not in the script. Also, they know 2) is the reason they've been tracked because Finn says he used to mop the room where the tracking device is. Also, if Poe or any of the mutineers were revealed to be a spy after the mutiny, they'd be hosed either way, so it makes no sense to tell them then.
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Sep 16, 2022 16:08
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Spermando posted:Love that you started your post saying "literally spelled out in the movie" and then described two fan theories that are specifically not in the script. Also, they know 2) is the reason they've been tracked because Finn says he used to mop the room where the tracking device is. If I'm misremembering the spy issue, fine, but I recall discussion of a spy. Regardless, need-to-know is still literally baseline military operation, and Poe didn't need to know. He was just loving mad.
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Sep 16, 2022 16:11
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Is this kinda of discourse only confined to popcorn movies? I don't really remember it with the entirely-women-led Annihilation, or Arrival or Contagion which both had women in positions of power in scientific fields. Or even that Bladerunner 2049 is essentially about the divinity of the womb. I genuinely could have missed it. I don't think anyone with CHUDdy views on films could stand to engage me because I will blissfully not stop debating.
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Sep 16, 2022 17:14
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Arcane was very well received by the fandom menace-adjacent channels, and they're mostly enjoying Hot D, too.
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Sep 16, 2022 17:16
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nm
Chemtrailologist fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 17:32
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I think it's somewhat just popcorn movies. I think it's also somewhat whether or not chuds are, intentionally or otherwise, piggybacking an existant negative regation in order to peddle their "get woke go broke" narratie wherein they insist deliberate inclusion of minorities makes bad fantasy (even though products like Arcane and Stormlight Archive are two obvious counterpoints to that). We didn't see as much of it with Get Out or Black Panther as we did Star Wars TFA because people were just already upset that Disney had bought Star Wars and was making new movies and had decaled the EU not cannon. The dipshits, in my "neck of the woods" (video games), got mad at Arkane's Dishonored Death of the Outsider because the playable character was Billie Lurk, a black woman introduced in the first game. But you never heard about that outrage because it was a low selling DLC for a AA tier game. I'm gonna keep beating this drum: bad writing is older than the oldest goon posting in this thread, but chuds are trying to hitch bad writing to the presence of minorities because they're bigots. That's the net of it. Edit: here comments from /r/Netflix from a few months ago that I accidentally found searching "Arcane woke"  Wholesale, flatly stated that even if a black woman were on the writing team for a Netflix show, her self-inserts would be forced.  So... yeah they're actually really loving mad about Arcane. You just didn't notice because people generally like Arcane for being well written. No some shitheads in some small reddit thread aren't representative of culture-at-large, but I feel they're a fair little sample of chud feelings. Decon fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 17:44
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