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Fister Roboto posted:In any case, having the government force the workers back to work could be too unpopular to attempt, so he might want to avoid it if possible. Again, I'm not a Biden whisperer, but it's not some far-fetched idea. It would not be as unpopular as you think it is. This is not the 1950s where labor unions are a huge political force. They are rebuilding momentum but they’re rebuilding. Americans having higher gas prices and giving fresh momentum to inflation would be much more politically damaging than making them go back to work since what that would actually look like is congress giving railroad workers a 20% raise and telling them them that this is the contract now for such and such years and it would be extremely easy to spin that as the union being unreasonable for being unhappy with it and congress being generous.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:12
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https://twitter.com/JonahFurman/status/1570381535139991553?t=fjc7G57KKdlPRqA5RQSApA&s=19 Obviously this could be a vocal minority and the deal will pass without any issues but there's seemingly a lot of rank and file workers who don't think they got what they were asking for
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Sep 15, 2022 18:14
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Gerund posted:If the migrants were just lied to in order to get them to agree to get transported, it isn't a case of 'legal justification', its just workaday fraud. https://twitter.com/jeremyredfernfl/status/1570428437025751042?s=46&t=_vKNEqdViTQRRZnYVt3FyQ Jeremy Redfern is the FL Deputy Press Secretary. Openly saying "We explicitly emulated the manner in which Criminal Cartels traffic human life in order to place real life humans in your state, without their consent". Even if they didn't think this through, they're openly admitting to at least trying to commit a crime. BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:It would not be as unpopular as you think it is. This is not the 1950s where labor unions are a huge political force. They are rebuilding momentum but they’re rebuilding. Americans having higher gas prices and giving fresh momentum to inflation would be much more politically damaging than making them go back to work since what that would actually look like is congress giving railroad workers a 20% raise and telling them them that this is the contract now for such and such years and it would be extremely easy to spin that as the union being unreasonable for being unhappy with it and congress being generous. There is still the potential for the situation to get hosed badly enough that a strike, even a wildcat strike, isn't the biggest issue being faced. You technically have legal options to counter a strike (Legal, illegal, Wildcat, or otherwise). But if they don't actually improve the situation for these people they run the risk of causing a bunch of them to Crack-Ping and completely give up. If they end up with an actual great resignation event and people realize there's nothing for them working the railways and walk away, then there's nothing you can do. All the threats used to break strikes are based around firing, blacklisting, removal of benefits/seniority/position, etc. If the person you're trying to leverage doesn't care anymore and stops playing, you lose with no follow up. They can't replace these people as it is. And loving it up with a "well technically the bare minimum of people agreed to this so get to it" that is still infuriating to a minority of the workers could still end up with a rail-way crisis. Crain fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 18:15
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Jaxyon posted:Do you have some examples of this in action, or is this kind of a hope? Remember the North Carolina bathroom bill?
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Sep 15, 2022 18:35
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shimmy shimmy posted:Do you think the Republicans would all vote in lockstep to prevent the strike? On the one hand, it fucks over labor and labor unions, which they're in favor of. On the other hand it'd give Biden a win, even if it's a self-defeating one. The Grand Bargain shows it might not be that easy even if it's accomplishing Republican policy goals. They don't need to wait for Biden's permission to push a "management wins, gently caress the unions" law. The GOP is already eager to put one on the floor, and in fact they've tried once already. If Biden turns around and goes to Congress to ask them to force an end to the strike (though there's no real reason to think he intends to do this!), that'd be him endorsing the GOP's existing approach, rather than asking the GOP to endorse his approach.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:45
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Jaxyon posted:Do you have some examples of this in action, or is this kind of a hope? James Garfield just mentioned a good one. I was also thinking of how DeSantis' war on Disney for being slightly-less-horrible to LGBT+ people, and Abbott's anti-immigrant actions that have significantly impacted Texas' agricultural sector. Going outside of US, I'd also rope in how British conservatives ignored all kinds of warnings from Capital that Brexit was a stupendously dumb idea that would tank the economy, because it would keep the dirty foreigners out. It seems to me that the script has flipped for newer members of the GOP. Where the priorities used to be 1) Hold onto power -> 2) Get paid -> 3) Hurt people, it's now more likely to be 1)Hurt people -> 2)Hold onto Power -> 3) Get paid. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 18:49
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So you're saying that sometimes they vote for bigotry over capital.
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Sep 15, 2022 19:43
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yes? "Republicans always vote with capital" isn't right and the reason it's not right is that Republicans are worse.
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Sep 15, 2022 19:46
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If Republicans always voted with capital they wouldn't have shot their own dicks off trying to punish Disney a few months ago
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Sep 15, 2022 19:51
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Jaxyon posted:So you're saying that sometimes they vote for bigotry over capital. Yes, I thought that was fairly clear from my first post, which was replying to another poster asserting that Republicans always fall in line with capital. Moreover, and this is more subjective, but given the decades now I've been watching this crap it seems to me that the "hurt people over everything else" wing is growing, at the expense of "get paid over everything else" wing.
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Sep 15, 2022 19:51
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Mooseontheloose posted:I think its two things: Martha's Vineyard residents are apparently not as hypocritical as city folk either... https://twitter.com/jaxcarys/status/1570385149870604291?t=lRbBs5OKTBsKP7ena6s7WA&s=19
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Sep 15, 2022 20:15
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Young Freud posted:Martha's Vineyard residents are apparently not as hypocritical as city folk either... https://twitter.com/jaxcarys/status/1570385149870604291?t=lRbBs5OKTBsKP7ena6s7WA&s=19 Episcopalian church. Episcopalians are generally more liberal Christians. Good on them for doing this.
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Sep 15, 2022 20:31
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Young Freud posted:Martha's Vineyard residents are apparently not as hypocritical as city folk either... https://twitter.com/jaxcarys/status/1570385149870604291?t=lRbBs5OKTBsKP7ena6s7WA&s=19 I could of told you that. If DeSantis was smart he would of dropped them in Nantucket.
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Sep 15, 2022 20:35
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Kalit posted:"all out war"? This is much different than most unions, in which they are allowed to freely strike and the government cannot prevent it. Fister Roboto posted:If I was the president and all I wanted was to avoid a strike, I would make sure that the workers get just enough so that striking is no longer worth it for them. Keep in mind that striking is incredibly difficult on the workers and a huge risk, so what they get could be just enough to avoid a strike while still being a pretty raw deal (and a better deal for capital). I can't read Biden's mind so I can't say for sure that this is what he is doing, but it's also not entirely outside the realm of possibility. There's what Fister said, but also a matter of optics. Forcing them back to work is handing Republicans a lay-up. "Look at Joe, forcing workers to go to work sick and not get paid  " Ignore the fact that the Republicans are ok with that, they'd still use it as a cudgel. If Joe comes out in favor of the table scraps, then they can turn the narrative against the workers. "Joe tried to help these ingrates, but they just keep demanding unicorns and paid sick days. It's obviously not his fault, he tried." Basically the same messaging that has been a cornerstone of his tenure. "Oh, Joe really wanted to help people out, but they just aren't happy with the table scraps that we keep insisting are actually the 5-course banquet people asked for."
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Sep 15, 2022 20:46
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Holy poo poo - if DeSantis flew them from Venezuela without coordinating with DHS isn't that legit illegal? Oh god how funny would it be to have him charged with human trafficking.
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Sep 15, 2022 20:56
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the_steve posted:If Joe comes out in favor of the table scraps, then they can turn the narrative against the workers. "Joe tried to help these ingrates, but they just keep demanding unicorns and paid sick days. It's obviously not his fault, he tried." I don't think that the messaging is mostly going to matter because the average person didn't even have much visibility on these negotions. They would notice when the strike happened and if it doesn't, messaging largely won't penetrate. It should, but it own't.
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Sep 15, 2022 21:02
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Holy poo poo - if DeSantis flew them from Venezuela without coordinating with DHS isn't that legit illegal? Oh god how funny would it be to have him charged with human trafficking. Can't get charged with human trafficking if you say "it was for a bit!!" right after you commit some human trafficking!
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Sep 15, 2022 21:03
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Young Freud posted:Martha's Vineyard residents are apparently not as hypocritical as city folk either... https://twitter.com/jaxcarys/status/1570385149870604291?t=lRbBs5OKTBsKP7ena6s7WA&s=19 And yet Alan derschowitz can’t get a dinner reservation.
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Sep 15, 2022 21:03
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A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 21:05
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A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1570111574651834368?t=sShnvR7Vp-jIaMNrZMYX9w&s=19 That's from yesterday. You might be right, but did they reject the new deal the Biden administration brokered?
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Sep 15, 2022 21:09
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They should absolutely strike unless they're happy with the deal. Now is not the time to blink on this.
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Sep 15, 2022 21:15
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A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1570111574651834368?t=sShnvR7Vp-jIaMNrZMYX9w&s=19 FYI, if you didn't notice the timestamp, this occurred before the White House meeting and was not a vote of the terms that came out of that. Here's the official press release of it: https://www.goiam.org/news/departments/hq/rail-division/iam-district-19-members-vote-to-reject-freight-rail-agreement/. I'm guessing they'll take another vote on the updated terms before the 29th, we'll see what happens with them and others.
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Sep 15, 2022 21:15
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Mooseontheloose posted:I could of told you that. If DeSantis was smart he would of dropped them in Nantucket. Nantucket this late in the season, is more made up of townies who live there full time (which let me tell you, Nantucket in the middle of January, sucks rear end) than rich assholes who only stay there from late May through Labor Day. I don't know what the response would be if that happened, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being similar to how MV reacted. But Obama and Clinton don't vacation there, so, MV was always going to be the destination. FLIPADELPHIA posted:Holy poo poo - if DeSantis flew them from Venezuela without coordinating with DHS isn't that legit illegal? Oh god how funny would it be to have him charged with human trafficking. He didn't. One flight started the morning off in San Antonio with a stop in Florida, where both planes met up, then flew onto either Spartanburg, South Carolina or Charlotte, North Carolina before proceeding to MV. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ue11 https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ue59 Still incredibly lovely regardless.
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Sep 15, 2022 21:19
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the_steve posted:There's what Fister said, but also a matter of optics. This is ignoring the most obviously possible outcome (not necessarily what will happen, since the unions haven't voted yet), where the unions vote in favor of the new contract and any Democratic advertising on the matter is "look at how we helped railroad workers win better working conditions".
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Sep 15, 2022 21:20
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Eric Cantonese posted:That's from yesterday. You might be right, but did they reject the new deal the Biden administration brokered? poo poo sorry i cant read
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Sep 15, 2022 21:21
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Yes, I thought that was fairly clear from my first post, which was replying to another poster asserting that Republicans always fall in line with capital. Moreover, and this is more subjective, but given the decades now I've been watching this crap it seems to me that the "hurt people over everything else" wing is growing, at the expense of "get paid over everything else" wing. That I would agree with, but they aren't in charge yet, and the 'get paid' wing is getting increasingly pissed. Which come to think of it, might explain Lindsay's insane abortion ban bill introduction at this point in time. Torpedo the nutjobs then go back and try to win those seats back with your usual low taxes uber alles Republicans.
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Sep 15, 2022 21:58
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Crain posted:There is no reason to assume that when it comes to the government. But it's good to see they haven't completely ignored the issue. Though still sad to see that most of the effort seems to be focused on the getting the workers to capitulate instead of on the companies to treat their workers well. Please make it clear when a claim you're making is from a source being discussed or not, as otherwise it can be misleading and seen as misrepresenting sources.
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Sep 15, 2022 23:03
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evilweasel posted:it is entirely possible the union negotiators misjudged their members - it happens occasionally, but not often Could you please share some evidence to support this claim? Kalit posted:Once again, Biden can just tell Congress to prevent them from striking Incorrect. American government does not work like this. Biden is not in control of Congress. Biden controls the Executive Branch. Congress is in the Legislative Branch. Biden cannot tell Congress what to do. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 15, 2022 23:22
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Sharkie posted:Incorrect. American government does not work like this. Biden is not in control of Congress. Biden controls the Executive Branch. Congress is in the Legislative Branch. Biden cannot tell Congress what to do. Of course he's not directly in control of Congress  But he has immense influence with the members who are part of the Democratic party. And nearly all of the Republicans already wanted to vote yes on it.
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Sep 15, 2022 23:32
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Again, this is by no means a definitive source, but the sentiment in r/railroading seems to be best summed up as "gently caress this deal and gently caress everyone who agreed to it" https://twitter.com/who_shot_jgr/status/1570458013726539776?t=_NcAana7vSkE7mQl5VZKdQ&s=19 I want to stress that this could easily be selection bias on my part, but I don't think I've seen people who actually work on the railroads express any degree of satisfaction with this deal
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Sep 15, 2022 23:47
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Koos Group posted:Please make it clear when a claim you're making is from a source being discussed or not, as otherwise it can be misleading and seen as misrepresenting sources. Is this going to be on the mid-term? Kalit posted:Of course he's not directly in control of Congress But Joseph Robinette Biden, President of the United States of America, head of the Executive Branch and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, of the United States of America, is not in control of Congress and cannot, as you explicitly stated, "tell them to prevent them from striking". Which was an incorrect statement. He cannot direct them to do anything. He might be able to voice his desire, but he can't direct their actions nor even bring bills up for vote. Please avoid false statements about the operations of the United States' House of Representatives and the Senate. It's not good form. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Crain fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 00:01
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This railway thing seems like a massive own goal for the Dems, just as things were starting to look up for the midterms. The red wave just might be back on the table.
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Sep 16, 2022 00:02
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St. Dogbert posted:This railway thing seems like a massive own goal for the Dems, just as things were starting to look up for the midterms. The red wave just might be back on the table. In what way is "this railway thing" a massive own goal for the Dems.
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Sep 16, 2022 00:19
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https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1570552116837584897?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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Sep 16, 2022 00:26
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St. Dogbert posted:This railway thing seems like a massive own goal for the Dems, just as things were starting to look up for the midterms. The red wave just might be back on the table. The Dems have no way of forcing the companies to make concessions? Their power is to force the workers to just sit down and shut up, a power they are choosing to not use because it would be wrong.
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Sep 16, 2022 00:33
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Thom12255 posted:The Dems have no way of forcing the companies to make concessions? Their power is to force the workers to just sit down and shut up, a power they are choosing to not use because it would be wrong. But that might make their donors sad.
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Sep 16, 2022 00:35
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silence_kit posted:24 days of paid leave a year is a really good benefit. If your goal in this thread is to create a narrative that the railroad workers are being exploited, it would be a good idea to stop talking about the amount of paid leave that they are going to get, and focus on something else. As I understand it, Railroad workers are on call 24/7 365. They could be called to man a train at any day of the week and at any hour of the day. The only caveat is that they must have 10-hours notice. They do have 24 days of paid leave, but that must be scheduled months in advance and counts against any day of the week. So if your daughter is getting married on a Saturday in May and you want to guarantee you do not get called to drive a train that day you use one of your 24 days a year. But if your daughter gets in a car accident the week before the wedding and you want to travel to be with her in the hospital, well you didn't schedule that months in advance so you could be punished for not being available. Same goes for funerals and personal doctor's visits.
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Sep 16, 2022 00:58
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Ghost Leviathan posted:But that might make their donors sad. What do you mean by this?
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Sep 16, 2022 01:04
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Thom12255 posted:The Dems have no way of forcing the companies to make concessions? Their power is to force the workers to just sit down and shut up, a power they are choosing to not use because it would be wrong. they literally just made the companies make concessions Sharkie posted:Could you please share some evidence to support this claim? observing the relative number of tentative agreements that end in final contracts vs. being rejected by a union, and that most but not all end in a final contract while some are rejected by the union, a thing that is commonly reported on in the media and you can be familiar with by reading news stories about labor disputes evilweasel fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 01:10
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Shrecknet posted:Can't get charged with human trafficking if you say "it was for a bit!!" right after you commit some human trafficking! Don't worry, it was just ironic human trafficking.
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